Cavilish

[Anarchy (not signed in)]

Consider Latian. About 50 years  ago doctors, phyisicans and vets from all walks of life had to learn Latian in order to become a medical physician. It was a connecting language that allowed ideas and methods to be shared between cultures and counties. A English doctor could go to Cina and speak with a doctor there, in latian.

Why cant it be the same with Cavilish? Why is it so hard to believe the possiblity that in such a small area (the known world is rather small) Cavilish has been chosen to be the language of trade across all races and city states?

*mutter* Bunch of militant, narrow minded gith *mutter*[/b]

[John]

Why cant it be the same with Cavilish? Why is it so hard to believe the possiblity that in such a small area (the known world is rather small) Cavilish has been chosen to be the language of trade across all races and city states?

It definitely can be. But until the docs are updated I'll continue to roleplay it as being rare.

[Marauder Moe]

Why cant it be the same with Cavilish? Why is it so hard to believe the possiblity that in such a small area (the known world is rather small) Cavilish has been chosen to be the language of trade across all races and city states?[/b]

It could be, but it isn't.

When people need to speak a common language they speak... *drumroll* common, aka Sirihish.

As I've stressed, I have no problem with Cavilish becoming a trade language.  As it is in-game currently and in the game documents, though, it isn't.  If it was, though, it would need to be added to a subguild.  There's no reason one would have to be a merchant, aka a crafter, to speak it.

[Sanvean]

My thinking is pretty much along the same lines as LoD's.  I'd prefer not to remove the skill from the guild.

[Marauder Moe]

My thinking is pretty much along the same lines as LoD's.  I'd prefer not to remove the skill from the guild.

So, how about a Cavilish subguild, then?

[John]

My thinking is pretty much along the same lines as LoD's.  I'd prefer not to remove the skill from the guild.

Is that how most of the staff feel? If so is it alright to send in updated helpfiles to clarify that Cavilish isn't something the Merchant Houses will have you killed for knowing?

[Delirium]

Having personally witnessed 'guild fishing' on multiple occasions, I would really like to see cavilish be put in a subguild if it isn't going to be taken out of the main guild.

Why?

This scene:

"I'd like to work as a crafter."
"Do you know cavilish?"

Bang-on tell if you're a guild_merchant or not, even if you try to creatively get out of it.  What's worse, if you say no, you're auto-magickally under suspicion for being a mage or a thiefy type.

Players should not be able to know if someone's going to be able to craft everything in the known world based on whether or not they can speak cavilish.  The best RPers won't take it IC, but it WILL end up influencing most people's actions and reactions to your character.

One of these days, I'm going to special app a defiler/merchant just to piss off those guild sniffers, but until then, a subguild would be very nice.

Cavilish, barter, and value.  Call it the 'merchant' subguild.

[Maybe42or54]

There is something even worse, that I've seen personally.

Joe Crafter comes up, says, "I'd like to work as a crafter."
Joe Merchant says, in an unknown language (to J.C.) called Cavilish, "Do you understand me?"
JC says, "Huh?"
Joe Merchant says, in sirihish, "I'm sorry, but I need to go. Let's meet later?"
J.M. gets up and leaves.


Since somehow, it is O.K. if you don't ask straight out.

[John]

"I'd like to work as a crafter."
"Do you know cavilish?"

Bang-on tell if you're a guild_merchant or not, even if you try to creatively get out of it.  What's worse, if you say no, you're auto-magickally under suspicion for being a mage or a thiefy type.

Since the "submit a request" tool has been put in, I routinely ask for my Cavilish skill to be put as low as possible (can't remove it or else it's impossible for you to ever learn it). So I would answer no to that question. So guild fishers beware, if you ask someone if they know cavilish and they say no, they're either not a merchant, or they're me  :twisted:

I recommend other players do so. Even if Cavilish is common among merchants, I'd say it's common among high-end merchants, not every single person who sells stuff.

[Sanvean]

Is that how most of the staff feel? If so is it alright to send in updated helpfiles to clarify that Cavilish isn't something the Merchant Houses will have you killed for knowing?

Yeah, I'm going to fling my weight around as merchant house admin and say yes on this.  Send them in and I'll get them in after I get back from traveling.

Joe Crafter comes up, says, "I'd like to work as a crafter."
Joe Merchant says, in an unknown language (to J.C.) called Cavilish, "Do you understand me?"
JC says, "Huh?"
Joe Merchant says, in sirihish, "I'm sorry, but I need to go. Let's meet later?"
J.M. gets up and leaves.

It's not okay, and if you see someone guild-fishing like this, feel free to drop a note to the account about it.

As far as the great Cavilish controversy goes, it reminds me of Bendune a while back, which the TM treated as their own secret language in much the same way --I think because at the time there wasn't any way for PCs to know Bendune short of listening to gypsies or wishing up about being a nomad and hoping to catch a staff member in a good mood.  That's shifted and it's available as a subguild language in order to open that up a bit.  Cavilish, though, is already available through a guild -- which to me says that merchant houses shouldn't be treating it as their own personal secret.  It's a trade tongue, which merchants pick up in order to communicate with other merchants.

[Delirium]

Okay, how about this.

Merchants get cavilish at a reduced level.

Merchant House Family always get perfect cavilish.

That way, someone could pick up cavilish, and though they suck at it, they would still be less suspicious to an unscrupulous guild-sniffing PC.


I really, really would like to see cavilish put in a subguild, but the above suggestion is a compromise.

[ale six]

I like that suggestion. I'd also like to see a cavilish subguild.

[spawnloser]

I still don't want to see it removed or changed...as it's not something that you should be killed for, isn't some super-sekrit code-language that only a select few know...it's the language of commerce.

[Maybe42or54]

Personally, I can't see why you can't put it in its own subguild.
Subguilds are groups of skills learned before you started playing, why can't someone learn Cavilish from their interaction with merchants before you start playing?

[Cale_Knight]

New Subguild:

Peddler.

The great merchant families were not the only dune traders to settle in the cities. With them came hundreds of smaller families, many of whom did not directly interfere or compete with them and have thrived, in their own ways, buying, selling, and trading in the shadow of the greater houses.

skills: haggle, value, cavilish.

[LoD]

Subguilds are groups of skills learned before you started playing...

This is true, but there are some skills that are not available through any of the subguild choices.  Backstab, disarm, trap, weapon skills, magick skills and parry are just a few.  They aren't included because it is assumed that there is more to learn regarding these skills than would be possible through a subguild.  I would consider Cavilish to be in this category because of its limited use in society and accessibility.

Nomads have bendune, but bendune is spoken between warriors, rangers, assassins, merchants, burglars, pick-pockets, etc...  It is attributed to a tribe of peoples, not to a given profession.  Thus, it would make sense that nomads be able to speak the tongue of their people -and- hold a regular profession.

The same can be said of elves and dwarves.  There are no stipulations on which professions can speak allundean or mirrukim.  Neither language is considered the "tongue of the warriors" or the "ranger's tongue".  They are universal between tribes, professions, social status, etc...

Cavilish is not this way.  It is neither as common nor necessary to a particular culture as is bendune, allundean, or mirukkim.   It is not spoken by every sect or group of a particular race or people -- but specific to a task that requires relationship buidling, consistent interaction, and an accompanying skillset favoring the work.

I see Cavilish as a merchant only language due to its sparse and industry specific use.

-LoD

[Marauder Moe]

Tell me then, LoD, what is 'merchanting'?

(edit: I'm not conceding that Cavilish is a trade language for merchants, I still firmly believe that it isn't, or at least that how it's used in-game and portrayed in the documents it isn't.  I'm just posing a hypothetical.)

[Maybe42or54]

Yes, but backstab/disarm/trap take a deal more effort to learn than a language does as proven by the linguist subguild. If another subguild is made for it then, who will be using it? People that want the cavilish language and possibly deal more with merchants. Why do merchants get it? If it is so hard to learn (like backstab/disarm/weapon skills), and unvital, only merchant houses should have it, since they are the only ones that really deal with merchants face to face a lot of the time. Indy merchants don't even deal with merchants the majority of the time.

Further more, the docs say that it is bendune with sirihish in it. So why can't a nomad, who could both, speak cavilish?

Cavilish isn't the language of commerce, it it the language developed between intergrated societies. City Cavilish is Badly spoken sirihish, and badly spoken Bendune. The Merchant Helpfile and the Cavilish Helpfile really cut each other off at the knees.

At once they began to adopt the languages of their customers, who spoke mostly Sirihish. Within their homes, however, they continued to use their native Bendune speech.

[Intrepid]

I hate to say this, but I really think Cavilish is fine the way it is.  I do believe that,
every once in a while, someone could develop it--in which case, you can ask the imms
for any skill that would rationally fit your pc in game--within reason.

[Marauder Moe]

Now you've done it!

Moe, you're forgetting that many elves have little to know knowledge of sirihish and seeing as how they're the second most populous race in the world, you'd need some way to communicate with them, right?

Yes.  You use Sirihish unless you're one of the few who bothered to learn Allundean.

Cavilish SHOULD be a trade language, but everyone either speaks Sirihish already or learns it VERY quickly from being around so many people already speaking it.  That's why Cavilish isn't used as a trade language but a secret language for speaking above the people that don't speak it (which is EXACTLY how it is used in practice by PCs).

Really, what I'm saying is that I believe you're wrong, Moe.  Cavilish is supposed to be a trade language, but simply isn't used that way.

Got any evidence?  Read the help files on it.  Cavilish is a cultural language.  

The legendary dune traders of ages past, once travelling merchants of nomadic heritage who spoke Bendune, settled in the city-states at Gol Krathu and Vrun Driath somewhere in the neighborhood of one thousand years after the Dragon's departure from the Known World. At once they began to adopt the languages of their customers, who spoke mostly Sirihish.  Within their homes, however, they continued to use their native Bendune speech. With the passage of generations, the younger family members, eager to assimilate more fully into the culture of the city-states, made increasingly larger use of Sirihan language structures. And, as time wore on, their native Bendune became so changed that it was categorized by scholars as its own language.

(from http://www.armageddon.org/general/language.html#cavilish )

Like it says, within their homes, not for trading with foreigners or business tradition or anything.  The reason Cavilish isn't a trading language is an IC one, not OOC.

I have to agree with spawn.  At least the last I knew (it's been awhile since I've played a merchant) Merchants get Cavavlish for a reason.  Back in the day it was also used to "guild sniff" if you will.  It was the language of desert traders.

Theres a big difference between the language of desert traders and a language of desert trading.

[spawnloser]

You're saying that since they spoke Bendune within their homes, that Cavilish (a different language that evolved from Bendune) can't be a trade language?

[psionic fungus]

The reason Cavilish isn't a trading language is an IC one, not OOC.

It's a trade tongue, which merchants pick up in order to communicate with other merchants.

You say it "isn't a trading language", THE (wo)MAN says that "it's a trade tongue".

Just thought I'd point that out.

[flurry]

There's another related thread here.   Tlaloc's post in particular is definitely worth reading.

[Marauder Moe]

Well then I think the immortals are wrong.  Wouldn't be the first time.   :wink:

[spawnloser]

In practice, you're right, Moe, it's not a trade language.  It's a secret society language.

By documentation and staff interpretation of that documentation, it is a trade language.  It has nothing to do with being right or wrong.  They are the ones that write the documentation that the game operates based on.  Are you going to say that they're wrong and that Muk Utep can't really see the future?  Maybe he's just really lucky?  In a case like this, they can't be wrong.  You can choose to be stubborn, though.