Magick in game.

[jstorrie]

Just remove inactive characters from the count where the quota is concerned. It's an acceptable margin of error, since it'd only throw the quota out of whack for one character's lifetime when they return.

I wouldn't see it being a particular problem unless, say, four defilers go on vacation and then all come back the same week three months later.

[Intrepid]

I actually wouldn't mind a quota myself, so long as it took into account whose played what.  A quota that gives favor to people who hanv't played as many magickers might be nice.  However halaster does bring up a good point of inactivity.  Which is not uncommon around here.  How do we deal with that?

The answer is...you don't.  There is no fair way to set up a quota.  More
than one imm has already stated that it's an impossible headache to deal
with and too many factors to apply.

[Anonymous]

There is an interesting situation that is shaping up over the years, however.  The more time passes the more karma is given out to people, and so more people have the mage options opened up to them.  It's a natural conclusion, then, that over time there will in fact be more karma-required roles running around.  5 years ago there may have been 15 people with 3 karms.  Today, it could be 35 people with 3 karma.  3 years from now it could be 50 people.  (I'm just making these numbers up, no clue if they're accurate).

So why not make karma expendable?

[Arbonne]

What of individual quotos? Think there was a thread on that somewhere...

[UnderSeven]

Oh Davian, I don't like that idea at all.  I actually think karma is too subjective a system already and harder to get sometimes then it should be.  This is fine because you can special app anything which is nice, but if karma were expendable, I'd say we might as well just screw the whole system in the first place and move back to just a special app system for all karma classes above a certain point.

[amoeba]

Honestly, I think if magickers were utilized more and weren't hiding out all the time (because they -know- that -everyone- hates,fears them and wants them destroyed) until they become more powerful...they'd probably be out and about more and getting killed more often before they get that powerful.

Boy do I disagree with your disagree.  This may address the boredom of gemmed magickers, possibly getting them killed more, but would not address the issue of the other ones trying to remain below the radar.  Having ready employment for those who are to be feared and hated simply makes them an ordinary Amos with special abilities.  This I believe is antithetical to the whole concept of magick in this world.  This approach, gemmed notwithstanding, simply places magick into the commonplace.    

My point is that is should be rough as hell for a magicker to reach any real level of uber power.  It should be a challange, this would naturally lessen the number of magickers who want to stick it out, and increase the value and excitement of playing one and finally making it.  Giving ready employment I believe would increase the number of those playing magickers.  

In addition creating OOC quotas is inherently unfair and a nightmare to administer as a couple of the IMMs have previously noted.  There need to be IG pressures to cull the numbers naturally.

[jhunter]

Cracking down more is only going to make -more- of them stay under the radar until they are powerful. It's going to increase the number of -powerful- mages you run into.

If more were getting hired to do jobs for others...they'd be out taking more risks instead of hanging out somewhere getting more powerful.

Hunter/gatherer pcs are dying constantly...because they are out there with a goal and taking risks.

Would it make magick more commonplace? Sure. Would it lower the percentage of -powerful- mages out of those living.? I think so.

We'll just have to agree to disagree because I don't see it the way that you do.

[Halaster]

Currently it's around 50-70. With that number. I'm just taking a wild guess and saying that 20-25 players are magickers.

hahahahahah

Do you just pull this out your butt or what?  

Out of 50 to 70 players online at night lately it's MUCH less than those numbers.. more like about 10.  What in the world makes you think it's that high?

[RunningMountain]

All I got to say is, magick is far too commonplace nowadays. You see it in every HRPT/RPT. Look at the friggin' history. Whatever happened to good old fashioned combat being number one? When did this magick trend start? The reason armageddon is such a fun setting is that it IS low-magic. We don't want people running around with magic gear and all that, so why would we want a lot of magick-capable characters running around doing stuff?

-RM

[X-D]

You know, I'm not staff, but I think I have a reasonable handle on the number of mages in the game.

I really doubt there are 25 total, and I doubt very much if more then 7-12 are ever on at the same time.

Again, not staff, so I could easily be wrong.

But to me, the ratio of mundanes playing and mages seems good.

[Halaster]

All I got to say is, magick is far too commonplace nowadays. You see it in every HRPT/RPT. Look at the friggin' history. Whatever happened to good old fashioned combat being number one? When did this magick trend start? The reason armageddon is such a fun setting is that it IS low-magic. We don't want people running around with magic gear and all that, so why would we want a lot of magick-capable characters running around doing stuff?

-RM

Look at the history and tell me there isn't magick involved all the way back, such as the Dragon and Tektolnes.  The world of Zalanthas has magick involved all the way back to the beginning of history.  The common IC belief of how the world became a desert is because of magick.  The city-states are ruled by sorcerer-kings.  Magick is involved in Zalanthas, it's a fantasy setting.  Yes, it's low magick in that people aren't walking around with magick gear everywhere, but that doesn't mean no-magick.  

And no, it's not in every RPT/HRPT (though often it is, I agree).  There was an RPT just the other night that involved "good old fashioned combat", by way of the arena.  So, what you're saying is misleading (I mention it because I don't want newer players hearing things that are inaccurate).

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think the idea is not to make magick like turning on a light, not to erase magick from the world. Think about the Jedi Powers in Star Wars, then realize that that's probably the level of Magick in Armageddon. A Magick breastplate is fine, someplace in the world. Forty of them are not. A potion? Dangerous, but sure, right on. A potion Shopkeeper? Fuck no.

[Intrepid]

Actually, those few you're considering powerful are the result of Darwin's
theory coming to light.  They adjusted exactly to the higher levels of
danger and difficulty applied to magick-using pcs.

Care to see how nightmarishly powerful they get when you make it even
more dangerous and difficult to be a magicker?  You won't solve the
problem you think you will, but I'll certainly find it interesting to watch.   :twisted:

[LoD]

Look at the history and tell me there isn't magick involved all the way back, such as the Dragon and Tektolnes.  The world of Zalanthas has magick involved all the way back to the beginning of history.  The common IC belief of how the world became a desert is because of magick.  The city-states are ruled by sorcerer-kings.  Magick is involved in Zalanthas, it's a fantasy setting.  Yes, it's low magick in that people aren't walking around with magick gear everywhere, but that doesn't mean no-magick.

While what you say is true, Halaster, I think RM is probably referring to the high profile "world event" quests having a high magickal content in both concept and execution.  I cannot remember a year in the past three that did not feature a Lord of <insert scary name> gathering an army of <insert scary creature> attacking a city/village.

It isn't that low magick quests don't happen, but that these high magick (sorcerers with armies of undead) quests/plots seem to be the model of choice.  And I, too, find myself loathe to hear about the next big magickal being/beast ravaging the countryside when I'd much prefer to hear about a gith invasion, neighboring city-state war, drought requiring some type of global action, harsh weather exposing some valuable resource (i.e. earthquake, sand storm), territorial wars, the need for exploration of a dangerous area, retrieval of a stolen person/item or anything that would allow 99% of the people to use planning, cunning and their skillset to directly effect the outcome of the story.

As will be detailed in my pending discussion if just this topic, all too often it seems the plots are motivated by highly powerful, highly magickal beings/critters that somewhat tend to alienate the non-magickal playerbase and trivialize their involvement.

-LoD

[Folker]

About 4-6 months ago, I mentioned there were too many magickers. There were many experiences that lead me to this opinion, one of them being my character cussing out the generic gemmed and ended up having 5 out of 7 PCs look at him angrilly. The chara looked around and got the fuck out of there. Me ... I realized that it's not bright 'hating' magickers, when it so happens they're in majority, and it's the 'normals' that end up being outcasts. You cant really 'hate' something so dangerous and 'unique' as magickers, if they are so many of them, 'they're normal, and your lack of a gem makes you unique.

So the point of it is, the lynch mobs and so on should be atleast slightly common against magickers, but how can they be created, if your lynch mob is smaller in number then magickers. Ofcourse, I'm talking about PCs only, but when push comes to shove and a roleplayed out example of magick hatred is about to happen in some tavern, vnpcs arent going to help your chara get the needed courage boost that mobs tend to do.

That was 4-6 months ago, right now ... I didnt notice this many gemmed magickers, maybe they're just in hiding, or the phase is over. But if somebody is claiming they're still at large, then ... is it the same phase I experienced that half a year ago, or is it a new one already.

[Anonymous]

my character cussing out the generic gemmed and ended up having 5 out of 7 PCs look at him angrilly. The chara looked around and got the fuck out of there. Me ... I realized that it's not bright 'hating' magickers, when it so happens they're in majority, and it's the 'normals' that end up being outcasts.

I don't think the point is that mages are the majority...

The point is that Allanakis simply don't think of them the way Tulukis do.

Tuluki's think about those damned witches, and kill them on sight.  Allanaki's have marginal use for them, and -tolerate- them.  Your average Allanaki has no real reason to walk up to some mage, unprovoked, and be an asshole.  You can choose to hate mages all you like, but most people aren't going to swear them out in public because 1) it's not smart, they could just smite you, 2) some of the mages have provided services to the very poor as a means to survive themselves, and 3) there's other shit to worry about in 'Nak.

[ale six]

You know... I really don't mind seeing a little magick here and there. It's a part of the game world, a central theme that can't and shouldn't really be ignored.

LoD, as someone who it seems like a lot of people look up to on these boards, I think it sets a really bad example when you say you're just not going to log in for RPTs involving magick. To me that sounds like a cheap way out, and I really hope whatever PCs you're playing aren't even remotely important if you choose to do that.

I'm opening myself up for multiple-flamethrower retaliation here, but if you guys want a no-magick setting? Go play in Tuluk. No, no, I'm serious. Stop laughing. Tuluk outlaws magick completely, you won't find Faithful openly using magick, and you won't find them relying on magickers. Everything (as far as is commonly known, anyway) that Tuluk wants to accomplish has to be done by normal, mundane people. I'm sure the Legion and the other Tuluki clans would love a few extra players so that they could throw down some really fine RPTs.

On the other end of the world... Allanak has the gemmed. Tek doesn't keep his gemmed pets around so that the rest of the city can sneer and be uneasy around them. He doesn't keep them around so they can spam-cast happily in their temples, either. When the Allanaki templarate needs something done, it makes a whole lot of sense that they'd get their gemmers to help out with it. Of course this isn't to say mundanes aren't useful to Allanak too, but if you really wanted to be the star of the show and not compete with fireball-throwing crazies, there ARE other places to play.

I could write more to this, but I won't. Basically I'm happy with how things are. Boo to trying to reduce the amount of magick, and double boo to quotas.

[Anonymous]

I remember "back in the day" most of the game gave the gypsies a whole lot of shit, because all their RPTs were stopping some magickal entity in some place, or performing some giant magickal ritual, or whatever.  At the time, these things seemed really super overkill, because a good quest was Thrain getting all his dwarven buddies together, downing about fifty kegs of whatever flammable beverage they could find, and staggering into Allanak with their swords out shouting something about Ironsword...

Hell, even The Great Catastrophe had a few dozen hundred undead shambling around...

But I can see how the tides have turned, here.  I can appreciate where LoD is coming from.  And, honestly, I don't really blame him.  Any RPT that suggests a guaranteed death for a char I've spent a lot of time getting to a point I like probably isn't worth it.  I don't think I'd not login (hell, I still remember getting zorched during a staff/player meeting just for the hell of it), because it's still eyecandy.. but I can see that some folks want something with a plot they can be a part in.

[Folker]

So, hold on a second. I'm puzzled, are you saying that Magickers are not hated within Allanak? I thought they're hated and feared universally by everyone who dont wield magick themselves. It's just in Tuluk there's open license for them, and in Arm there is a ... private license for them Atleast that's how I always understood it.

You're describing it like Allanak is like ... a city of the wizards, or some such.

[spawnloser]

All I got to say is, magick is far too commonplace nowadays. You see it in every HRPT/RPT. Look at the friggin' history.

As has been stated before, magickers simply have a larger footprint or larger impact in some ways.  That is why there is so much attention paid to them in the history, because they made large impacts in those events.

Also, in those events, sure there were a few magickers...but how many mundanes were there too?  Far more than there were magickers, I guarantee.

[Anonymous]

As has been stated before, magickers simply have a larger footprint or larger impact in some ways.  That is why there is so much attention paid to them in the history, because they made large impacts in those events.

Pretty much.  In any world with powerful magicks just about any world-changing event is going to involve magick in one way or another because magick is the equivalent of the Nuclear Bomb.

As far as the presence of magick trivializing the involvement by most of the playerbase, that stands to reason to me.  Most of the real world is full of people who are just spectators to world-changing events, so why should Zalanthas be any different?

[Agent_137]

so it'll be more fun?

[John]

As far as the presence of magick trivializing the involvement by most of the playerbase, that stands to reason to me.  Most of the real world is full of people who are just spectators to world-changing events, so why should Zalanthas be any different?

Because it's a game for players?

Having said that, any player, no matter their guild or occupation, can have a dramatic effect on any plot. I've seen normal characters play an important part in magick plots before.

[Anonymous]

so it'll be more fun?

Yeah, every character should be a sorceror-king.

Because it's a game for players?

That's a pretty shocking revelation.   :?

This is a low fantasy game and part of what makes it harsh is how most characters are just peons to be shit on by the few movers and shakers.  
Honestly, the sense of entitlement people get over HRPTs is silly.  It's why you end up with nobles cocking up bullshit reasons to go fight waves of gith attacking a tent camp or something.  World-changing events are going to involve major powers and most characters will be lucky if they can be realistically involved in a really intimate sense.  Otherwise you end up with silly concessions to engage everyone in a way that cheapens the whole effect.

I'm differentiating between RPTs and HRPTs here.

[Agent_137]

straw-man argument. that's not what i said. that wouldn't even be fun.

either respond for real or leave please.