Magick in game.

[Halaster]

The people who are talking about cycles are basically right.  It happens in cycles.  A month or two from now you'll be wondering where they all are.

We can't, nor do we want to put "caps" on various guilds.  For starters, it would be a logistical headache for staff.  You'd have to first decide how many you wanted, then keep track of them all.  Then you have to decide when are they becoming "inactive", and at what point to you force them to store or play?

If you tried to set it up so it automatically did or did not allow people to play these guilds, then you'd have to decide how the Code determines when they're playing and when they're not.  Or, you do it manually, and... bleh, it's far more hassle than it's worth.  The other option is to yank the choice from people and only make them special app, but, again, a logistical nightmare.

There is an interesting situation that is shaping up over the years, however.  The more time passes the more karma is given out to people, and so more people have the mage options opened up to them.  It's a natural conclusion, then, that over time there will in fact be more karma-required roles running around.  5 years ago there may have been 15 people with 3 karms.  Today, it could be 35 people with 3 karma.  3 years from now it could be 50 people.  (I'm just making these numbers up, no clue if they're accurate).

[moab]

Is the problem too many magickers or too many obvious magickers?

If there are too many of anything, create an IG drive to fix the imbalance.

Of the last three of four escaped muls I've played, three of them were captured or killed before they had put 5 hours in game.

This is ok.  It keeps the mul population down and reflects the real (in Zalanthas, anyway) world pressure on escaped muls.

There was no balancing act that needed to be done by the staff.  I think the same is true of magickers.

And while it may seem that magickers are difficult to get an upper-hand on, the truth is that its only the smart ones that are difficult.  The other ones die easily.  Controlling them, like the mul population will keep the problem to a minimum AND reflect the real world (again, in Zalanthas) pressure on magickers.

The real problem, as I see it, is the willingness of non-magick characters to find some way around their bias and work WITH a magicker.  Don't be willing to work with them.  Work to kill them.

[Nusku]

Something to consider is that magickers and psionicists often have a bigger "footprint" than mundane classes. By footprint, I mean the size of the world they affect at any given point in time. This isn't to say that mundane classes can't affect large portions of  the world; some can and do. However, a magicker that can pop all over the Known World in the space of an hour is naturally going to impact on a greater surface area. This often leads to the illusion that the world is full of magickers.

Speaking as someone who periodically uses the who command just to see what classes are on - I'm naturally inquisitive, and we imms have the ability to do that "at a glance" so... why not! whee! - I can say with a fair degree of certainty, without running the actual numbers, that the total percent of magickers and psionicists in the world is quite low. This is in spite of the fact that there are an increasing number of players with magicker karma; again, without running actual numbers, my "at a glance" analysis says that most people who have magicker karma are playing mundanes.

Other factors to consider when you're "tripping over magickers all the time" might be:
Where are you finding them?
What are you doing when you find them?
Are you finding the same magickers over and over?
Are you guild-fishing?

If you're hanging out in certain places that seem infested with magickers... and you keep going BACK to those places... duh. You're going to find magickers. You should NOT be surprised. If you're doing things that are likely to get you noticed by magickers in the area... and you find magickers... you should not be surprised to run into them. If you run into a magicker three times, but it's the same one every time... there's still just the one magicker.

And last but certainly not least... guild-fishing annoys me. A lot. There's a fine line between asking someone about their profession, and fishing around to see what skills they have in order to figure out if they're a magicker or not. My opinion as a player, not as staff, is that asking someone if they're, say, a hunter is fine. Hunter is a profession. Kadius employs hunters, and they might be rangers, warriors, assassins, krathi, or mindbenders guildwise, but that's irrelevant because what they do is they hunt stuff. That's how they make their living. However, if you've just asked that noble House guard, "So, you're a guard?" "Yep." "Any good with an axe?" BZZZT. That sets off the warning bells in my head that says you're guild-fishing.

I bring that up because sometimes, people who guild-fish make bad assumptions about who is and isn't a magicker based on what they think people should reply to guild-fishing questions. If you're seeing too many magickers because you're making bad assumptions, that's a problem with YOU, not the distribution of magickers in the game.

[Cenghiz]

It _is_ really annoying when the merchant starts speaking cavilish to your d-elf merchant after you introduce yourself as a merchant.

[Marauder Moe]

It _is_ really annoying when the merchant starts speaking cavilish to your d-elf merchant after you introduce yourself as a merchant.

Yeah, they really should take Cavilish away from guild_merchant and only give it to merchant family members.  Either that or add a Cavilish-speaking subguild.  As it is now, it doesn't make sense who does and doesn't speak it.

[LoD]

While I'll have a much more detailed and length post explaining my reasons, the increased number and presence of magickers in Armageddon over years past has significantly lowered the fun of the game for me to the point where I will purposefully avoid any RPT or HRPT that hinges on magickal beings, critters and forces.

To those that say it hasn't changed?  It has.

Is it a cycle?  Sure, but what is increasing is the potential.

In the old days, it used to be possible to have a character live awhile without hearing about more than a few defilers.  Now I feel like I'm living in Metropolis by all of the comic book names of sorcs or magickers I hear.  It used to be an uncommon thing, whereas now I come to expect a sorcerer or mindbender to be an all too common part of the game.

The problem isn't magickers.  It isn't that people are playing them more often, or that they enjoy magick RP.  The problem is that the magicker classes allow for such a higher potential of power that ANY increased frequency in the number played will be more heavily felt upon the game.  Having even 5-6 now instead of 1-2 before is seemingly comparable to having 30-40 warriors around now instead of 3-4.

And so what happens when people get karma and then get smoked by a magicker in such a way that nothing they could possibly have done would have saved them.  Now, it happens again.  And again.  And pretty soon they think, "You know, I'm just going to make a magicker so  I can be on a level playing field."  And now we have more magickers.  And more magickers.

If I ever stop playing the game, the power and common presence of magickers in the game will be a part, if not the whole reason.

-LoD

[Aldiel]

Well, I suppose we should continue to see more magickers as the player base gets older and older.   In MMORPG, when  they've been around for a couple of years, it's hard to find anyone not max level.

[UnderSeven]

I have mixed feelings on this issue  

I've played this game for a very long time, Over ten years and in that time i've played maybe mmm three magickers.  Not because the option wasn't opened to me, on the contrary, I've been able to play a magicker for as long as karma has existed and before karma, well you just had to app for it.  

I've never really played a big magicker, in fact I assure you that if I mentioned my magickers they would of been known for reasons other than having been magickers, in fact I don't think any of them really got found out for what they were.  I never really used the magicks much with them.  

So now that having been said, it can make the experience a fair bit cheapened if it is suddenly everywhere.  Arguably anyway.  

I'd make a simple suggestion on this matter.  Put a cap on how many magickers any given player can do in any given period of time.  I don't know what other people are doing, but maybe the number of in game magickers would be lowered if people were not allowed to play them too many times or any number of times in a row or somehting to that extent.  

Considering how many non-magickesr I've played inbetween, or rather how much time has elapsed between any given number of mine, i can say it certainly wouldn't dampen my experience any, on the contray it would be make it more fun.

Edit: By magicker, I am referring to any magick class, including Psi

[Intrepid]

We have more of everything, actually.  All classes are represented about
how they always were.  Even way back in the day, there were a couple of
magickers, at least one of whom was ollllllld and very powerful.  What
you weren't seeing back in the day were out-of-the-closer mages, because
it just wasn't as inviting a subculture back then.

Mages are not meant to be unseen in the slightest, so if this disenchants
anyone, it's a rather major portion of Allanak that does so--unfortunately.

Mages are potentially powerful, yes.  They're also a difficult and dissimilar
method of playing.  I for one am relieved they're more powerful now than
the last time I played.  I can only hope their potential grows even more by
the next time I make a mage pc.  All that work Halaster and who knows
who else have been putting into the mage classes has paid off, and we're
beginning to see public mages in Allanak like we always should have--in
all their disturbing, baby-eating glory.

[LoD]

The problem with the magick classes is that it dumbs down the game.

If you equate the game to that of chess, you realize that each piece has it's own strengths and weaknesses, it's own place on the board.  There are things it can do and things it cannot do.  It's designed in such a way to allow some pieces to be powerful in particular situations where in most others they are barely playable.

It is this balance that is important to note.  Playing amidst these common mages is like playing against someone who uses 10 queens.  Guess how many times I'm going to want to play in the same game as him?  Probably not often because his 10 queens and all the power they have dumb down the game to a point that is no longer fun.

It removes strategy and thought, and replaces it with the giddy childish joy of winning.  I'm not saying that playing a magicker is "easy-mode", but having magick be made a more common part of the game as it has over the last few years is, in my opinion, dumbing the game down.

-LoD

[X-D]

Well, it depends on what you think is a large number of magickers.

Myself, I think the number is slightly higher, but at the same time I have watched the waves of magickers come and go.

I also tend to play mundanes myself and I think most other karma'd players do the same.

About 1 in 6 of mine is a magicker and all my PC's tend to live at least 6 months rl.


In short, I do not currently see a problem.

And referring to peoples posts about there having been so much fewer in the past...well, yes, and there was also much fewer players period.

[UnderSeven]

I don't know that i agree with LoD that magickers are even that terribly powerful really.  But maybe I'm wrong.  

Magickers have a lot of weaknesses.  I remember not terribly long ago a post about how a magicker would get creamed by a newbie fighter and people trying to argue that magickers needed more defense against the straight up fight.  So I think that alone proves magickers have plenty to be afraid of.  

Take that and add the fact that magickers can't really hope to make too many friends, but non magickers can, and you have the makings of some seriously vicious witch hunts.

i think I'm going to go ahead and agree with the earlier staff response that if you don't like magickers, hunt them and kill them.  Maybe I'll go and do just that.

[Intrepid]

I don't see a problem either, nor do I see mage classes as being dumbed
down.  Dissimilar, yes.  Dumbed down, no.

You make it sound like they're invincible, which is entirely untrue.  Mages
simply have a different set of skills and a different approach to the game,
one which offers different avenues at the expense of more conventional
means to do anything...and I mean anything.

I play mages following every one or two mundane pc types to break the
monotony, as it offers a different and unique approach to the game.
Some mage-types I've been told are weak are in fact types I play rather
well, while I've found a couple of the so-called mighty classes to be weak.
It's all a matter of preference and priority, not imbalance.  If you find the
mage classes yourself to be overpowered, perhaps you're simply better
at playing those than the mundane classes.

[RunningMountain]

X-D. While there were fewer players then. The average players online per night is what you should compare the magicker population too. Currently it's around 50-70. With that number. I'm just taking a wild guess and saying that 20-25 players are magickers. That's a huge chunk. And again that's a guess, but from what I've been seeing it's reasonable. It should be more like 5-10 in my opinion.

Magick is supposed to be rare. Yet when you have players continually playing them it makes the gameworld seem like it isn't. Even if you say virtually there are 600,000 people you have to account for. That's just taking the easy way out and saying well, virtually there are hundreds of gith in the tablelands, yet that doesn't stop desert elves from walking around killing them all.

[RunningMountain]

Actually, I'm gonna change my guess to half the players on being magickers.

[Intrepid]

I play in Allanak currently.  There are not 25 known mages running
around in public.

I would also like to remind everyone that in your past figurings, you left
out The Conclave, which had at least ten active mages at a time during
its heyday.

Magick was not rare back in the day.  You just didn't know who was a
mage.

[amoeba]

I can see where LoD is coming from, but I do not draw the same end conclusion.  The problem -as I see it- is not the number of magickers or the level of magick that is the problem, it is the number of magickers that are -truly- powerfull.  Becoming a truly powerful magicker should be as rare as the number of blue robed PC templars we see IG.

I think often there are not enough pressures placed on magickers.  It is very possible to replace danger and risk for a magicker with boredom and routine, and in the process create a very powerful, bored character.  This is a dangerous combination.  It is hard to explain this fully for those that have not played them, those that have should know what I am talking about.  Certain areas should not be as safe as they are, magick should be considered dangerous and actively rooted out wherever possible, I just don't see this happen as much as it should.

This is not to say that every warrior Amos in the game should be out tracking and wildly slashing at Magickers. But there are elements of the game that could be made to increase the pressure on the development of uber magickers.

On a slightly different tack, often people play the karma'ed options because they want something different, something unique to play.  I think that opening up some of the other races as Sanvean has hinted to could releive some of this pressure as some people might choose one of those other options rather than picking that magicker.  As the player base matures and we get more people, having these options could prove helpful in this regard.

[Intrepid]

Thank you, Morg.

[UnderSeven]

Safe places for magickers will always come and go.  You'll get organizaed people together and what are you going to do? Deny magickers the possibility to make any safe home for themselves by some invisible glass ceiling of imm stopness?  That imo would be far lamer than having some powerful magickers once in a while.  If there is a place that magickers are being safe for right now, find it destroy it.

[Intrepid]

Safe places for magickers will always come and go.  You'll get organizaed people together and what are you going to do? Deny magickers the possibility to make any safe home for themselves by some invisible glass cieling of imm stopness?  That imo would be far lamer than having some powerful magickers once in a while.  If there is a place that magickers are being safe for right now, find it destroy it.

Destroy Allanak?

[jhunter]

I can see where LoD is coming from, but I do not draw the same end conclusion.  The problem -as I see it- is not the number of magickers or the level of magick that is the problem, it is the number of magickers that are -truly- powerfull.  Becoming a truly powerful magicker should be as rare as the number of blue robed PC templars we see IG.

I think often there are not enough pressures placed on magickers.  It is very possible to replace danger and risk for a magicker with boredom and routine, and in the process create a very powerful, bored character.  This is a dangerous combination.  It is hard to explain this fully for those that have not played them, those that have should know what I am talking about.  Certain areas should not be as safe as they are, magick should be considered dangerous and actively rooted out wherever possible, I just don't see this happen as much as it should.

This is not to say that every warrior Amos in the game should be out tracking and wildly slashing at Magickers. But there are elements of the game that could be made to increase the pressure on the development of uber magickers.

On a slightly different tack, often people play the karma'ed options because they want something different, something unique to play.  I think that opening up some of the other races as Sanvean has hinted to could releive some of this pressure as some people might choose one of those other options rather than picking that magicker.  As the player base matures and we get more people, having these options could prove helpful in this regard.

I disagree. I think it's exactly the way magickers are treated that leads to run-ins with more powerful magickers and few low powered ones. It forced them to go hide out somewhere safe and not risk revealing themselves to anyone until they -are- powerful.

Honestly, I think if magickers were utilized more and weren't hiding out all the time (because they -know- that -everyone- hates,fears them and wants them destroyed) until they become more powerful...they'd probably be out and about more and getting killed more often before they get that powerful.

[UnderSeven]

This is a very good point Jhunter, I am impressed.

I will point out from my experience too, one huge difference between the magickesr of now and magickers of then is it is a lot harder to be one now then it was then.  Now it seems if you can't find a place to hide until you get to at least a moderate degree powerful, you die right off.  End result?  Yeah..  Our prejudice is breeding uber magickers!

[jstorrie]

Magickers are very powerful but so are guild-warriors, guild-rangers, guild-assassins, guild-burglers... and guild-pickpockets or guild-merchants can often amass significant wealth through their guild abilities and in turn apply that as force. The weakness of a magicker is that they're human on the other end and will want to interact with other people. Floating around with Very Improved Invisibility IV, Ultra-Reaction X and Immunity to Mortal Weapons or whatever simply isn't a permanent option. Eventually that magicker is going to be walking around with his guard down and someone will pwn him - just like anyone else in Zalanthas. How tough is a Thrain Ironsword when you catch him sleeping, without a weapon, while you've got your poisoned halfsword out and a few thug buddies with you?

It can be frustrating to sit like a pleb as some invis mid-level sorceror dictates his will at you, but it's not like he's playing with all queens. It's like he's playing with all black-square bishops. Figure out how to get on the white squares and he's not so tough, is he?

All of that being said, I have seen quite a few magickers around lately. I would be in favour of a quota, as I get the impression that the average karma level of players is going up at a rate greater than the playerbase is. Of course, I just started playing again, so what do I know!

[Intrepid]

I disagree. I think it's exactly the way magickers are treated that leads to run-ins with more powerful magickers and few low powered ones. It forced them to go hide out somewhere safe and not risk revealing themselves to anyone until they -are- powerful.

Honestly, I think if magickers were utilized more and weren't hiding out all the time (because they -know- that -everyone- hates,fears them and wants them destroyed) until they become more powerful...they'd probably be out and about more and getting killed more often before they get that powerful.

From personal experience, I can tell you that jhunter is partly correct.
When I play a magicker, I usually prefer to go solo and secret, doing my
own thing.  The difference is that I never bother going public about being
a mage, since by the time I get to powerful levels, I tell everyone to piss
off and continue doing my own thing.

It's not because I don't like the gem or the Elementalist's Quarter.  It's
mainly because I like playing in the same game with everyone else
rather than being cordoned off and abandoned by the majority of the
playerbase.  Nakkis and Tulukis both love plausible deniability in their
business, so they're not going to necessarily ask you how you're doing the
tasks you're doing for them--and if they do, they're foolish in the extreme
for expecting an honest answer in a world like Zalanthas.

As long as elementalists in particular get treated poorly and the only
public employers are smug bastards like Oash and the templarate, I'm
content to stay in the closet under a plausible cover identity and conduct
my affairs with the greater populace free of prejudice and disdain.

Chew on that the next time you try to figure out who all the mages in the
Known World are.

[UnderSeven]

I actually wouldn't mind a quota myself, so long as it took into account whose played what.  A quota that gives favor to people who hanv't played as many magickers might be nice.  However halaster does bring up a good point of inactivity.  Which is not uncommon around here.  How do we deal with that?