My Opinion of Tuluk

[Aldiel]

Tuluk is certain different than Allanak, but if the two city-states functioned the same, I'd have no reason to play between them.  I like the difference, and I think it's important.  Play in Allanak if you want a more Zalanthian experience, but play in Tuluk to get a different experience.

[Anonymous]

Tuluk is certain different than Allanak, but if the two city-states functioned the same, I'd have no reason to play between them.  I like the difference, and I think it's important.  Play in Allanak if you want a more Zalanthian experience, but play in Tuluk to get a different experience.

I think this post inadvertently hit it on the head.

There's no reason that Tuluk and Allanak can't be different and both be Zalanthan.

It's really distracting to have a city that doesn't feel like it fits in the world, and it's giving people some very weird ideas about how the game (as a whole) should be played.

[marko]

It's really distracting to have a city that doesn't feel like it fits in the world, and it's giving people some very weird ideas about how the game (as a whole) should be played.

If you would be so kind, could you expand upon this for me?

I'm not certain how it is that Tuluk doesn't fit into the world so I'd like a little more on your thoughts in this.

I remember Old Tuluk and, to be honest, it was fluffier than New Tuluk is today.  

So... basically, what I'm curious about is the why you feel Tuluk is out of place and what very weird ideas it is giving people.

[Anonymous]

So... basically, what I'm curious about is the why you feel Tuluk is out of place and what very weird ideas it is giving people.

It's really hard to put this to words, and a lot of it is, honestly, the players I was exposed to.  No one spends any time talking about life in Tuluk or putting their characters into the setting in a specific way that is accessible to others.  Everyone has a secret story and a clique, and that's it.  I didn't see people who were really into life on Zalanthas in any way except a couple of hunters who were pretty decent.  What about nomads, though?  Anything?  But, rather than offend more people, I'll spend more time on the other things.

I think that there are a lot of people who, after playing in Tuluk, seem to think that lush plantlife exists on Zalanthas and can be everywhere as long as it is properly nurtured, or cared for.  The image I have always had in my head is more like plantlife on Dune.  You keep it in a glass bubble, and it costs millions to water it, because large plants just don't survive in the climate, or else they're too valuable to risk leaving them out for joe blow to harvest them, chop them, or whatever them.

While there are trees around Tuluk, I've never felt it was a lush amazonian rainforest.  If it were, I would imagine it to be the kind of deep forest where halflings wait around every corner, poisonous bugs, and bloodthirsty plantlife reign.  But, I've heard in-game references (and more startlingly, ooc references) that suggest it is just a tree filled place ready for the pickings, everything should be made entirely out of wood (oh why bother carrying heavy stone, there are plenty of trees) and it's a great place to go and have a picnic.  

Now, I don't suggest that Tuluk needs to be barren and a wasteland, but I also don't see why any Zalanthan city would toss it to the wind and assume that water is plentiful enough to use as decoration, to waste on civic gardens for the public to use, etc.    Why is water still sold at the same prices as Allanak if water is so plentiful?  And where the hell are they getting it from?  The invisible lake?  The dry well?  The non-magical templars?  Isn't there even an IC story to cover this?

Even outside of this, though, how does work get done in the city?  I didn't feel there was a prevalence of slaves.  There's even a noble house that bills itself as being a slaver house.  For what?  There's no arena... there weren't any laborers...  

So ok, it's different.  I guess people just work for a living.  Doing what?  Is everyone in Tuluk a templar, noble, hunter, bard, merchant, or jewelry maker?  I saw a bunch of potters...  a couple people carting lumber.   What about the grunt work that noone ever wants to do?  

What happens to people who don't pull their weight?  beggars?  What about perceived criminals?  Are they all taken into a cell, disarmed, and assassinated?  No public examples?  

So why aren't people more afraid of not meeting the status quo?  What about fear propaganda? Where's the paranoia?  Even with subtlety, there should be some paranoia.  Where's the grit and the toil of surviving the supposedly harsh wildlife?  If it's completely sublimated, where are the social stigma?

Maybe I just missed it with all the subtlety going around, but it just doesn't feel like Zalanthas.  Or maybe it's just because I knew Ysania and still can't believe she got an entire street.

-shrugs-

I appreciate subtlety.  I do.  But I just don't feel the Armageddon atmosphere in Tuluk, even in the rumors on the boards, the attitudes of the players, the IC motivations

[John]

Even outside of this, though, how does work get done in the city?  I didn't feel there was a prevalence of slaves.  There's even a noble house that bills itself as being a slaver house.  For what?  There's no arena... there weren't any laborers...

I don't know what Tuluk was like before or during the occupation. But afterwards most of it was sectioned off to the playerbase with the clear understanding the city was getting repaired. There's certainly plenty of slaves around now to do the work. Look at room descs and NPCs.

What about the grunt work that noone ever wants to do?  

You mean like buying shit (I'm assuming to burn it)? There's definitely people doing that (look around).

What happens to people who don't pull their weight?  beggars?

They either beg enough to eat or starve. Same us Allanak.

What about perceived criminals?  Are they all taken into a cell, disarmed, and assassinated?  No public examples?

The Faithful appear to believe that simply dissapearing people works better for fear. IMO it works. I'd say the Gestapo was much more scarier then normal police. Even if those normal police can kill you for looking at them funny.

So why aren't people more afraid of not meeting the status quo?  What about fear propaganda? Where's the paranoia?  Even with subtlety, there should be some paranoia.  Where's the grit and the toil of surviving the supposedly harsh wildlife?  If it's completely sublimated, where are the social stigma?

Aren't elves still distrusted and half-elves looked upon with contempt? If people aren't playing like this then there's something wrong with them, and your character should question why they're being so friendly. What are they really up too?

Oh, and saying magickers are all dangerous people who should be killed is propaganda.

[Maybe42or54]

I don't see how that works in a world where life is supposedly worthless to a commoner.

I bet most of the fear would come from rumors, rumors from people that "Escaped," or people that saw people that saw people dragging limbs and torsos out of the jails to the burners, etc.

[Anonymous]

The Faithful appear to believe that simply dissapearing people works better for fear. IMO it works. I'd say the Gestapo was much more scarier then normal police. Even if those normal police can kill you for looking at them funny.

I'd buy this if people didn't walk outside and disappear more often.  See, if it were me, IC, I'd probably just assume that someone who "disappeared" went out into the wilderness and was beset by savages, for example.  

Aren't elves still distrusted and half-elves looked upon with contempt? If people aren't playing like this then there's something wrong with them, and your character should question why they're being so friendly. What are they really up too?

Oh, and saying magickers are all dangerous people who should be killed is propaganda.

I didn't see a single elf while I was there, so I wouldn't know whether they're held in contempt or not.  I saw one half-elven human (you know the type).  But even then, that's not a city-specific differentiation.  

As far as the all magickers are killed being propaganda - eh.  Not really.

[John]

I'd buy this if people didn't walk outside and disappear more often.  See, if it were me, IC, I'd probably just assume that someone who "disappeared" went out into the wilderness and was beset by savages, for example.

When in Tuluk why not assume that all people who dissapear didn't die in the wilderness, but by a Faithful? "Gees, I wonder what secret Bob had? Maybe he was a magicker? Didn't seem the type, but I guess you can't trust anyone."

BTW, going to the wilderness and dying is mainly a player phenomenon. Sure it happens to VNPCs, but they're generally not as stupid as us players and they don't go "oh joe the merchant who always stayed in the city has dissapeared? He must have gone outside the city."

As far as the all magickers are killed being propaganda - eh.  Not really.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think all magickers are natural born killers who will destroy the world. Tulukies (and apparently you?) feel differently.

[Pantoufle]

The beginning of Davien's post had me saying "no, you're wrong" but after continuing to read, I have to admit, there are some good points (there are also some bad) which shouldn't be overlooked.

There's more than one street named after a PC which was unquestionably a contrived phenomenon.  Then again, so was the entire successful liberation of Tuluk.  Of course that's a matter of opinion and any resonable argument explaining why you think this will be summarily silenced with the stock phrase "You don't know everything that is happening in-game", followed by "This is too IC sensitive to discuss".  So we'll have to let this point go to those who rely on cheap defense tactics that refuse to consider even the possibility that they may be wrong.

Plantlife in the Grey Forest is supported, presumably, by underground lakes and rivers, but one has to ask how trees in the city, planted unnaturally for the sheer sake of decoration, receive their sustenance.  What Davien said is true, water is still a scarce resource anywhere in the Known World, probably moreso in a city-state which doesn't rely on the magick conjuration of water as its opponent in the south does.  So wouldn't this invoke the wrath of the hungry and impoverished (which Tuluk does have).  This, coupled with the unrealistic import of wood (yes, wood is a resrouce in the North but it's still way way overdone currently) is what causes an abundance of players to make unrealistic remarks about life in Tuluk.  I don't point the blame in these instances on the players, rather, the OOC design of the city.

Moreover, Tuluk, while fantastically written and far outshining Allanak's multitude of terse descriptions, has still been written a bit too .. beautifully.  The Warrens and other areas have their fair share of "grime" but to the average Tuluki PC, decked out in his rich clan uniform with every required necessity in life accomodated for, first appearances are going to lend a lifelong impression that Tuluk is a magical wonderland of polished beauty.

Plus this whole Allanak "Walk in His Shadow", Tuluk "Walk in His Light" nonsense only serves to place Armageddon MUD alongside crap capitalist copyrighted series fantasy (such as Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, etc.)  It resembles Good vs. Evil (rather than Corrupt vs. Corrupt) which is where comments about tree hugging stem from.  It's this Allanak-black, Tuluk-white phenomenon which makes any of the true harshness, grit, and conflict unnoticable.  Tuluk is seemingly a benevolent empire when compared to Allanak and I hope the players of Tuluk today are making continued effort to maintain strife within their city-state.

Bear in mind, I'm saying all of this and I think Allanak is deserving of far more criticism than Tuluk.  But that doesn't mean Tuluk is freed from fault.

In my mind, the original idea of Tuluk vs Allanak is this:  On first appearances nobody in their reasonable state of mind would chose to live in Allanak over Tuluk but once they chip past the initial layer (first appearances) one soon discovers that it's not such a nice place to live after all where corruption and aggression exist just as much as Allanak but of a different kind.  Unfortunately, though this is a great idea it just doesn't work, the end result is that people will always say things like "Tuluk is beautiful and full of tree huggers" regardless of what may really be happening.  This is a direct result of Tuluk's appearance.  Tuluk should be a bit more .. flowery .. than Allanak, but in its present state it more closely resembles a wonderous faerie kingdom than a slightly resource-richer city-state in an otherwise apocalyptic, dessicated world.

[Spoon]

I see the point in most of your post, Pantoufle, but I've always seen the 'Walk in His Light' thing in Tuluk as ironic. I think if citizens of Tuluk are lead to believe the whole good versus evil thing, then it's a wonderful display of Tuluki propaganda. Players certainly need to be more paranoid and violent (not directley, in terms of subtle threats and the hiring of assassins), and the noblility needs to be far more sinister. FAR more.

There's too many PCs in the what should be almost non-existent middle classes, too. When I first started playing arm I thought everbody who wasn't a noble would be two-bit mercenaries killing mothers for a cup of filthy water.

[Pantoufle]

There's too many PCs in the what should be almost non-existent middle classes, too. When I first started playing arm I thought everbody who wasn't a noble would be two-bit mercenaries killing mothers for a cup of filthy water.

The trouble with that is very few people want to play these sorts of roles.  Most people play in a fantasy setting to escape the constraints of their real world by entering a ficticious realm which lacks the shackles of their day to day life.  You ask most people how they'd feel about playing a fantasy based game where their character is illiterate, clad in raggedy garments and brainwashed by one oppresive monarchy or the other and 99% of the responses you can expect to get will be "Uh, no thanks".  Because of this, most characters fall into that (should be small) middle class you're talking about.

[Bakha]

I see the point in most of your post, Pantoufle, but I've always seen the 'Walk in His Light' thing in Tuluk as ironic.

Not to mention somewhat sinister when you really think about it and consider the "flavor" of Tuluk. I think there are some valid criticisms of Tuluk in this thread (specifically in regards to room descriptions). I also agree that Tuluk is in need of a seedy underbelly and a good heap of Zalanthan grittiness. Of course, that lack can be explained by the fact that Tuluk was purged to cleanliness then rebuilt. It may take a little time for the grime to accumulate on that shiny new society. Keep in mind that Tuluk is a work in progress.

[Anonymous]

You ask most people how they'd feel about playing a fantasy based game where their character is illiterate, clad in raggedy garments and brainwashed by one oppresive monarchy or the other and 99% of the responses you can expect to get will be "Uh, no thanks".  Because of this, most characters fall into that (should be small) middle class you're talking about.

I agree.  I refer you to the slave thread where recalcitrance against playing an unwilling slave, even for a short span of time is omnipresent.

[Anonymous]

... Of course, that lack can be explained by the fact that Tuluk was purged to cleanliness then rebuilt. It may take a little time for the grime to accumulate on that shiny new society. Keep in mind that Tuluk is a work in progress.

That just doesn't work for me.  And yes - I freely admit that a lot of my opinions may be baseless or misguided either due to lack of experience with something, or with a misperception.  But rebellion is dirty and nasty and foul... What about all those desperate people who have no means to survive during a rebuilding?

The starving people without the skills to survive the wilds and acquire their own food?  While the food merchant in the town is still constructing his stall, tracking down the hunters of his who have survived so that he can get back into business, people are starving, and many of them are likely resorting to crime.  I don't care how much you love your government, if you're starving, you're going to do whatever it takes to survive.

I'd argue that Tuluk is -way- past this point.  To the point where, not only is it rebuilt, but any possible criminal element has been completely sublimated.  Shady things aren't hinted at ICly.  They just don't exist unless you know about them OOC or you are part of them IC.

I should say that the main reason I am focusing on this is because I recently convinced my roommate to play arm with me after like 5 years of not playing at all...  We started in Tuluk, and after two weeks, he's ready to quit the game.

He joins, we play together for a little bit.. then things get to be kind of dire.  I had started in Luir's rather than Tuluk, and had no caste tattoos.  He apped for his character more than 5 years ago (and it sat in the Hall of Kings until it was a septigenarian).  He decided to try Tuluk but didn't take the caste tattoo because his background had none of it in it.  I, not having played in so long, didn't realize this is a death sentence in Tuluk.

So we both go to Tuluk to play together.  Forage is pretty bleak (he won't eat worms or bugs, and the roots don't quench his hunger), and then one day, I "disappear".  So now he has no means for food at all, no money, and no clique.  He tries unsuccessfully to find ways to get money.  No one will talk to him.  No one will hire him.  He can't find a single thing that "analyze" will work on so that he can attempt to use his crafting skills.  So now he thinks that Arm is just a game where everyone sits in a tavern whispering to each other.

There's no Byn presence he can find up north, and he's ready to log out forever when, at midnight, he has his gloves on and finally gets pulled into a clan. After a RL week in the clan, playing nearly every evening, he has not seen the outside of a sparring circle in more than a week now, our treks into the wilderness did not meet a single wild animal, and he says to me "Strife?  Where's the harsh world of Zalanthas?".  And he figures the only reason he's had a hard time is because he doesn't have an OOC clique to play with in game.  He's sick of sparring, but no one is doing anything else.  Talk is cheap.

I'm not saying that the experience is necessarily different in Allanak.  I don't, frankly, believe it is.  But if this is the experience a newbie sees on Arm, why do people still play?

[Ghost]

I hear that Davien.  I would suggest you and your friend to start in Allanak.  The desert is harsh, the environment is more hostile than up north, but in Allanak, you two can join to Byn, get bitchslapped by templars, and if you two stay alive together, I bet your friend can adapt to the game world quickly.  

Allanak, sometimes drive me nuts as well.  Like sometimes a templar is not just harsh he is mad.  Or a house has one guard only but like 6 aides and something.  But still, I bet if you two stay alive in the given period, it would be easier for him to adapt to the game.

[Bakha]

That just doesn't work for me.  And yes - I freely admit that a lot of my opinions may be baseless or misguided either due to lack of experience with something, or with a misperception.  But rebellion is dirty and nasty and foul... What about all those desperate people who have no means to survive during a rebuilding?

I agree to a degree. I think this was reflected somewhat during the rebuilding. There were refugee tents and squalor and all that sort of thing. As I conceded, though, the finished product of Tuluk might be overly sterile in description.

The starving people without the skills to survive the wilds and acquire their own food?  While the food merchant in the town is still constructing his stall, tracking down the hunters of his who have survived so that he can get back into business, people are starving, and many of them are likely resorting to crime.  I don't care how much you love your government, if you're starving, you're going to do whatever it takes to survive.

I'd argue that Tuluk is -way- past this point.  To the point where, not only is it rebuilt, but any possible criminal element has been completely sublimated.  Shady things aren't hinted at ICly.  They just don't exist unless you know about them OOC or you are part of them IC.

As others have said, and I agree, the criminal underbelly of Tuluk is definitely a weak spot. All I can say, again, is that it's a work in progress. I know for a fact that there are staffers concerned with this, the problem is finding a way to work it into the game in a seamless, realistic fashion (yes I realize that there were other parts of Tuluk that were added without this concern) that continues to be maintanable and playable by PCs.

[Anonymous]

I mostly always only play in Tuluk.. I think I haven't played in Allanak in over 3-4 years, honestly.. I'm going to tell you why.. Please don't shoot me afterward  

Tuluk is easy.. Tuluk is a great place to make easy money, to survive.. To meet people that aren't mostly bastards, to roleplay in a city where it's mostly empty of thieves that'll steal your weapons from your belt every five hours or so..

It's also empty of 'evil' templars.. Sure, you might tell me that templars act in a subtle way in the north, but I've yet to meet one that even seems hostile to me.. I'd even go as far as to say that, "Heck, Templars are pretty nice people once you get to know them.."

You sometime meet an elf PC.. Rarely you'll meet more than two or three in the north at the same time.. So when a wave of 'crimes' occur, that thief is often targetted and gone rather quickly.. So you go days or weeks without meeting another elf PC.. So life is pretty easy that way..

Second, in my YEARS of playing in the north, I have yet to 'meet' a magicker, a sorcerer, a psionist.. Oh, I know, you'll say you aren't supposed to 'meet' them, but I haven't even 'heard' of any of them being a threat to the north, being in the area, etc.. I haven't had any encounters, hostile or not, with them, is what I'm trying to say..

Trees are a joke.. Go a few leagues out of the city, cut down as many as you want, bring them back and sell the logs for cheaper than most things you'd pay for.. After living in Tuluk for many years, it's hard to start 'believing' that the world is a harsh place, and water is a prized thing.. I often carry 2-3 filled waterskins on me.

Now here comes the spoiler.. I'm not a big fan of the world of Armageddon, the way it's supposed to be.. I love Armageddon, the RPI, tho.. I think it's the best out there, but there's what, maybe two more RPIs to choose from? If you want great roleplaying, great code and a mature, amazing bunch of people to RP with, you come to Armageddon.. I'm just not a big fan or RPing harshness and struggling for my life on a daily basis.. So it's why I play on Tuluk. People are nice, life is easy..

Life IS easy, no matter what you tell me, like I've said, I played there for years, and I have a 40+ days character there.

If Tuluk suddenly vanished, I would still play Armageddon, and adapt. But until then, I think I prefer Tuluk.. But I agree, it's starting to be dull, in many ways, when I see 60+ players online, and I'm the only one sitting in the northern place to be, I find myself reading more and more about Allanak, and hoping I'll get to try it sooner than later.

Peace.

[Ghost]

Gah!  Now I have an urge to kill that Anonymous Kank's PC.  ARGGH!

[Anonymous]

Whoa, I'm slightly suspicious that this Guest is Davien who manted to make his point clearer by attempting to argue for Tuluk in a manner the guest did.

I think this guests's 'pro-tuluk' post explained more flaws within Tuluk then all other anti-tuluk ones.




Folker

[Intrepid]

Whoa, I'm slightly suspicious that this Guest is Davien who manted to make his point clearer by attempting to argue for Tuluk in a manner the guest did.

I think this guests's 'pro-tuluk' post explained more flaws within Tuluk then all other anti-tuluk ones.

If I recall correctly, Davien is a she.

[Spoon]

I might have said it already about three times in this thread, but Tuluk needs a serious injection of thieves and assassins. Tuluk should be up to its ears in both of these. The only assassins I've ever heard about in my roles there are magickers trying to kill the odd noble or templar, or random acts of violence in sleeping commons.

I might sound a little high fantasy, and I don't think it's the best thing to do, but think about this idea:

If Tuluk had some kind of guild or organisation for assassins, secret or not, would it be more the kind of Tuluk that's written about in the docs?

The thing at the moment is, how -do- you become an assassin in Tuluk? I have reason to believe there hasn't been a registered hit in RL years. I may be wrong, but it really should be far more frequent in a city where its semi legal.

Or perhaps a better idea is to start posting special roles for assassins, perhaps?

Or has anybody got any better ideas for upping assassination in Tuluk?(I haven't really thought about this much, it just came into my head)

[Intrepid]

I might have said it already about three times in this thread, but Tuluk needs a serious injection of thieves and assassins.

I see what you're getting at, but I'm going to reword this slightly for
brevity's sake.

Tuluk does not need thieves and assassins.  It needs a criminal underworld.

In a society where you can buy a thief or assassin like a household
service, what in your society is still a criminal act?

The answer is simple: Mages and psis.

I would suggest a criminal society of mages and/or psis in or around
Tuluk myself.  Psis and sorcs are universally feared by the populace and
are difficult to keep in play around civilized areas, so that leaves...that's
right...elementalists.

Quite possibly, the last great criminal element (snark) left in Gol Krathu.

[Arbonne]

The thing with ideas is, it won't get implemented or worked on at all unless people actually do something about it IG. It's a fact, the Tuluki underworld needs some boost. Now that we've all said that about a dozen times, why not get IG, make a sneaky or even a high-powered noble with special interests, and help out those that -are- trying to do just that.

Heh. And while you're at it, try not to make another generic bard as your "cover". "Spice" it up abit.  :lol:

[Intrepid]

The thing with ideas is, it won't get implemented or worked on at all unless people actually do something about it IG. It's a fact, the Tuluki underworld needs some boost. Now that we've all said that about a dozen times, why not get IG, make a sneaky or even a high-powered noble with special interests, and help out those that -are- trying to do just that.

Very true.  Someone can make in-game history and leave a lasting legacy
on Gol Krathu by personally introducing the criminal element back into
what some consider to be faerieland.

Just remember, it's a new society with new rules.  Don't get stuck thinking
just in parameters of crime = thief classes.  Think outside the box and
make it uniquely Tuluki.

[Ghost]

The thing with ideas is, it won't get implemented or worked on at all unless people actually do something about it IG. It's a fact, the Tuluki underworld needs some boost. Now that we've all said that about a dozen times, why not get IG, make a sneaky or even a high-powered noble with special interests, and help out those that -are- trying to do just that.

Good luck to that guy who will try that.  But it is tough.  Tough to handle.  Needs lots of time, patience and a lot other factors to actually do it.  I think I can only say this much.