My Opinion of Tuluk

[Morfeus]

IMHO opinion, the difference is that conflict in Tuluk is not that much visible. Class tensions and inherent conflict? Indeed, it is in Allanak. And indeed, it is in Tuluk as well. The difference is that in Tuluk it might take you more time to notice it and understand what is going on.

Oh yes, I like Tuluk, you know.

[Gaare]

There are great posts here, just wanted to a bit my opinion.

Two Observations:

- As it is said many times, Tuluk is new, and still under construction.

- Tuluk slightly lacks struggle between merchant houses / noble houses / Jihaens / Lirathans. Main reason for lack of struggle is, they all recently formed a city from almost nothing. There was a large pie to cook and share, currently regarding Tenneshi vs. Winrothol relation, they all happy to get their good piece of pie.

I am away from Tuluk for a few months, but I think the solution would be really IMM based. Those houses should ask more and more from City. Their general focus would be getting more rather then preserving their area of control. One may claim that's already what  is done, but I had chance to play in almost all castes of Tuluk, but did not see that. Also, I do not think that's something players can change a general overview/ agressiveness of a House, it is something should be done or guided from above.


/A little detrailment/

Current struggle points.

Magickers vs. Tuluk (That's awesome and creates many plots)

Tenneshi vs. Winrothol (This sometimes get quite, but knowing there are many tools for conflict, not only licensed assasination/thievery but also organizations like bardic competions.. Very fruitful struggle)

Lacking as I humbly observed:

Between Merchant Houses

Lirathan Order vs. Jihaen Order vs. Noble Houses (Noble Houses are much stronger in Tuluk then in 'nak)


PS. Lack of criminal organization.. With criminal licensing from Templarate , Templars are (have great chance to become) criminal leaders with being patron of commoner/slave underlings.

[ale six]

Going back to Rindan's post...

I thought this was sort of amusing at first. Tuluk DOES have a place for shady types to congregate and gather. It may not be as obvious or as accessible as the rinth, but it IS definitely there.

Crime is legal in Tuluk if you have the right licenses. If you get permission you can be a sanctioned thief or assassin. Doesn't it follow that, shielded by custom and law, it should be easier for Tuluki criminals to operate than in Allanak? Unless you meant criminals who didn't go through the licensing procedures, but why wouldn't you?

Like so many other things, you have to take a different mindset when thinking of Tuluki crime, I think. Tuluki criminals are not your shady elves skulking in the rinth and avoiding templars and militia like the plague. They're everyday citizens who take up a riskier business and get contracts and licenses for their work, effectively getting permission to steal and kill.

I wouldn't want to see Tuluk's layout or theme changed. All that it needs to start up a successful group of "professionals" is a long-lived PC with the ability and charisma to get it done.

[Ghost]

Crime is legal in Tuluk if you have the right licenses. If you get permission you can be a sanctioned thief or assassin. Doesn't it follow that, shielded by custom and law, it should be easier for Tuluki criminals to operate than in Allanak? Unless you meant criminals who didn't go through the licensing procedures, but why wouldn't you?

Not quite so.  Being licensed, you might still end up pissing off your local templarate or militia.  For example, what happens when you need to buy a license for a noble?  And that noble is a favorite of a templar?  You probably will not get the license, or you will end up pissing your templar for going after the guy he likes.  And what is worse, what happens if that noble suddenly dies to an accident?  Now you are in trouble, for asking for a license that is over your head, and that your target is dead.
Something like this did happen to me in game.  My PC was asked for a certain PC to kill.  I asked for the license on the target and was quite shocked at the price on the licence.  My target was not a noble, not a merchant, not somebody rich, not somebody important, loved nor even cared as far as I know.  It was just a simple boy, yet I found out the templar actually likes that boy quite a lot for the price of the license was three times more than the price I would get from my employer.  Three times.  Well, I could pay the money, and I did, but imagine it if it was not just a simple boy but a known merchant, or bard, or noble.  Perhaps the templar would just kill my PC for even asking a license on someone he likes that much.

There are other kinds of need for staying away from militia also exists.   Licensed crime is accepted so long the criminal is a professional.  But what if he is not a pro, and he sucks once in a while?  An amateur surely would not be all too good in relationship with his local militia.

So there is an option for going unlicensed.  Or more likely, there is actually a reason to have a safe haven somewhere away from militia.

I thought this was sort of amusing at first. Tuluk DOES have a place for shady types to congregate and gather. It may not be as obvious or as accessible as the rinth, but it IS definitely there.

Not quite.  I know the place you are talking about, but it is nowhere near to be called a safe haven.  First it is so painful to even get there, and second, it is painful to even stay there.  Not a safe haven, not even close to the offers of the labyrinth.

I am with Rindan here, that on the criminal side, Tuluk lacks the criminal ground.  A character of mine did attempt to start organised crime in Tuluk.  Our first goal was to find a safe haven, and second was to find a way to make a living.  As it stands, the only two criminal tools in Tuluk are the licensed assassination and thievery.  And it is not everyday, people hire an assassin to get someone killed or something to be stolen, so making a living through that way was giving me headaches.  Not to mention, the initial bribes and buying off the licenses at the start made a bad start.  It could be done, if I had more patience, and if I had more time.  But it did not go the way I expected it to go.

[marko]

Not quite so.  Being licensed, you might still end up pissing off your local templarate or militia.  For example, what happens when you need to buy a license for a noble?  And that noble is a favorite of a templar?  You probably will not get the license, or you will end up pissing your templar for going after the guy he likes.  And what is worse, what happens if that noble suddenly dies to an accident?  Now you are in trouble, for asking for a license that is over your head, and that your target is dead.

I would hope that this type of situation would no longer happen as more light is shed upon the licensing process and the possibilities.  

The administrators of licenses should (hopefully) not introduce personal biases or, if one exists, move past it and still offer the license at a reasonable fee.  Now, I am not certain if this is exactly how it works, but that is the indication that I get from the documentation.  

If you find a license request denied for no obvious reason (like, say, the license request was on another templar) then you could mail the Northern Templar imms and inquire about it.  

Again, I'm not certain if this is how it operates currently but it is how I think it should operate.  

So there is an option for going unlicensed.  Or more likely, there is actually a reason to have a safe haven somewhere away from militia.

There are two levels of 'criminal' activity in Tuluk.  The reason I put criminal in quotes is because licensed acts are not criminal unless they are botched.  A licensed assassination that is done artfully is legal.

Now, on top of this, there will be unlicensed acts that are more risky and I wholeheartedly hope some people pick up on this loose end.  I've seen unlicensed criminal organizations in Tuluk start up but then fade away too quickly.  This would be the "true" criminal element in Tuluk since they would be working outside the administrative structure of the Templarate.

As it stands, the only two criminal tools in Tuluk are the licensed assassination and thievery.  And it is not everyday, people hire an assassin to get someone killed or something to be stolen, so making a living through that way was giving me headaches.  Not to mention, the initial bribes and buying off the licenses at the start made a bad start.  It could be done, if I had more patience, and if I had more time.

At time changes so do the processes within Tuluk.  I believe that Tuluk does lack an unlicensed criminal element and a safe haven for that element.  While the ruins and Under Tuluk exist there are deterants to going there for criminals - mainly due to the excessive stamina drain that each room takes.  I don't believe this information is particularly IC or sensitive since most everyone in Tuluk knows that the ruins are out of bounds and have heard rumors about Under Tuluk.

I would like to see something there change but I'd like to see that as a combination of IC effort and maybe some OOC changes (make some of the rooms less stamina intensive?).

I remember a time when Allanak did not have a criminal organization.  I remember when the Guild was formed and how it was formed.  I remember each of the characters involved - what happened was how any clan was created.  A few characters managed to stay alive long enough to bring others on board and it reached a point where they were able to present the immortals the concept for the Clan with a proven record.  The imms then coded it.

Tuluk needs this effort.  I don't think the imms should hand it over without any effort on the PCs side.  It'll take a concentrated effort by a few like-minded criminals to form a truly criminal organization in Tuluk.  As I said, it's been attempted before and was quite successful then.  

The city is ripe for stuff like this right now.  Things are changing and attitudes are changing.  More and more people "get" Tuluk and how it operates.  People are starting to see that licensed acts are not criminal and are to be admired.  Templars, from what I've seen, are not as biased in the granting of licenses.  Tuluk is slowly shaping into what the documents suggest it is and evolving beyond that.  

Tuluk is in a period of player-affected growth and development.

[Rindan On a Break]

I think people are vastly over playing what a license can do for you.  Licensing is bribery, pure and simple.  You can get an assassins or thieves "license" in Allanak too; it is called "give templar 1000 coins".  The difference is superficial.

Allanak is a great example, without going IC, there have been well run PC organizations in the past in Allanak (and could be today).  They all share a common theme; work out of the 'rinth.  The 'rinth is a resource.  Even after all the bribes are paid (or licenses bought) at the end of the day, criminals need the ability to go sit down in a nice shady bar and hook up with other criminals without militia in their hair.  Even criminal organizations that are in bed with the Templerate work out of the 'rinth.

The reason why criminals work in lawless zones is because even if the Templars have given you a thumbs up, lawless zones still offer up something that all the bribes and licenses in the world can't give you; man power.  Criminal organizations form by recruiting the various worthless dregs of society.  You need lowly independent criminals before you can have organized criminals.  You need not only a place for lowly criminals to hide from the law, but also a place where they can kick their feet up and boast about their latest haul.  Tuluk lacks this entirely.  Networking with other criminals when you don't have a meeting place, much less a source of criminals, is damn hard.  Hell, it is hard in Allanak even with the 'rinth sitting right there.  Starting a criminal band in Allanak is HARD.  I couldn't imagine trying to do the same in Tuluk.

Then there is just the OOC logistics of a lawless zone.  If every single place is going to have a crime code kick in where thousands of soldiers come out to the streets to beat the piss out of you, you just made criminal activity VERY frigging hard.

Personally, I think that Tuluk SHOULD be the crime capital of the known world.  All that money fat merchants bring in from the (relatively) lush land should be offset by the enormous bribes they need to pay up in order to keep criminal syndicates from killing them in the night.  

Just think of the geography of Tuluk for a second.  Tuluk is much bigger (area wise) then Allanak.  Tuluk is bigger, but has roughly the same number of people.  This means that all the soldiers are spread out.  

If I had a magical wand, I would do three things to make Tuluk more criminal hospitable.  

1) I would slap down more alleyways and rooftops in the warrens.  I would string alleyways everywhere, south of the sanctuary and red sun commons, west of the noble and Templar district.  Basically, I would slap down alleyways in the entire southwest quadrant of the city.  You can assume that these alleyways already exist.  There is always space between buildings and places to dump trash in every city, that goes double and triple for ancient feudal cities.  If there are no alleyways, then Tuluk's main roads should be a mess.  Further, I would make these alleyways break the North road at multiple points.  No chock off points like in Allanak (something that always bothered me BTW).  It should be that if you can get to the North road, you can get into alleyways.  I would then go aggressively slap down some rooftops to add even more ways to get around.

2)  I would turn the warrens into a quasi-lawful area.  All alleyways would be entirely unlawful dirty places.  All major roads on the other hand would be lawful places that are lightly patrolled.  Guards would not enter unlawful places.  The effect would be that if you are on the main street in the warrens, you are probably safe from most random acts of violence.  If you are on the run, you just stick the alleyways and rooftops.  Tuluki law would avoid these places so long as they are not too aggressive and don't diminish the beauty and overall safety of the well kept main streets.

3)  I would slap down two bars in the warrens practically insight of each other.  One would be on a lawful main road near the alleyways, the other would be in the unlawful alleyways.  Burn down another bar or three on Tuluk if this really causes anyone heartache.  You need at least two bars so that rival criminal groups don't murder each other off too fast.

I would then sit back and watch as thievery and extortion of merchants blooms.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Motherfucking Rindan. Where the fuck you been?

That was brilliant.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Wow. Um, wow... last time I checked this thread, it was three pages long. I'm a little overwhelmed, and I doubt I'll be able to form a cognizant response any time soon.
I just wanted to stick my head and say I really like some of the suggestions I'm hearing, and how most people seem really receptive to them. For those of you saying this thread should be locked, I wonder why you feel that way. Everything, from what I've been able to read, has been very civil, not to mention incredibly thought-provoking.
Um, yeah. Wow. I need to check threads I start more often...

[EvilRoeSlade]

For those of you saying this thread should be locked, I wonder why you feel that way. Everything, from what I've been able to read, has been very civil, not to mention incredibly thought-provoking.

Because some people think that a thread should automatically be locked after it hits a certain number of pages.

[jmordetsky]

Tuluk is GREAT!











To visit.






You Wimpy, Grass-Loving, Bard-Geeks.





PS. I'm just kidding.






PPS Sort of.

Edited: PSS tp PPS so as to avoid the evil grammar nazi.

[Bakha]

Just to comment on the locking/unlocking:

In my opinion, the last couple of pages of this thread have been filled with some awesome insights and suggestions for both staff and players who are interested in "improving" Tuluk.

I agree that there needs to be a "lawless" area that is more accessible and liveable. For various reasons I don't think it's necessarily ICly probable for that to be within the Warrens, but I see the attraction.  

I'd also love to see some initiative on the part of the playerbase to really get that criminal element going in the city. From what I've heard lately, Tuluk does seem to be changing in tone and feel. I think that's in large part due to threads like this and discussion among the playerbase and staff about making the actual gameplay synch up with the documentation.

Not sure the point of the post, other than to say that this discussion has been a good one.

[ShaLeah]

I like the differences between Tuluk and Allanak to a certain extent though I prefer Allanak's in your face kind of savagery... must be the NYer in me.

I think the danger in liking one place too much is that you're limiting yourself to one type of character, I find people are loyal to cities and beliefs much like their characters would be. So you get the same people playing in Allanak than you get playing in Tuluk, the same hunters, the same tribals, the same everything.  

Because they're so different getting into the nitty gritty of each place is really tough, the beauty is in the details.  I think Tuluk is relatively new and still hashing out its beauty.  PERFECT time to invade those  filthy scrabs again!  :twisted:


Make an effort at getting to know each place inside and out.  I think the difference is what makes them marvelous.


ShaLeah
- who still doesn't have the balls to start her ventures in either The Rinth or Red Storm...

[Kalden]

I agree that there needs to be a "lawless" area that is more accessible and liveable. For various reasons I don't think it's necessarily ICly probable for that to be within the Warrens, but I see the attraction.

There are already areas up in the Warrens where (NPC) soldiers are very rare.

If not the Warrens, then where?

I'd be interested in seeing some criminal organizations in Tuluk. I also played criminals there and I've given up. Tuluk is boring.

[Empress]

I really like Rindan's ideas!

[Manhattan]

I'd be interested in seeing some criminal organizations in Tuluk. I also played criminals there and I've given up. Tuluk is boring.

I am working on this as we speak. Don't give up. Tuluk will be the SHIT once my plans go through.

[EvilRoeSlade]

1) I would slap down more alleyways and rooftops in the warrens.  I would string alleyways everywhere, south of the sanctuary and red sun commons, west of the noble and Templar district.  Basically, I would slap down alleyways in the entire southwest quadrant of the city.  You can assume that these alleyways already exist.  There is always space between buildings and places to dump trash in every city, that goes double and triple for ancient feudal cities.  If there are no alleyways, then Tuluk's main roads should be a mess.  Further, I would make these alleyways break the North road at multiple points.  No chock off points like in Allanak (something that always bothered me BTW).  It should be that if you can get to the North road, you can get into alleyways.  I would then go aggressively slap down some rooftops to add even more ways to get around.

Allanak could use that kind of treatment as well.