My Opinion of Tuluk

[Pantoufle]

He decided to try Tuluk but didn't take the caste tattoo because his background had none of it in it. I, not having played in so long, didn't realize this is a death sentence in Tuluk.

That's definitely not true.  Tuluk is home to countless tribals from outside the Gol Krathu, it would be heresy for them to wear caste tattoos since they were not born there.  Tuluk is home to elves who have taken refuge in the city.  Tuluk is home to southern traitors (they're practically renown for this).  The mutants who assisted in the Liberation are not from Tuluk and, as such, also do not wear caste tattoos.  Tuluk is home to a great deal of people, many of whom were never born and therefore do not possess Tuluki tattoos.

[marko]

Davien, thank you for your well thought out posts.  I enjoyed reading them.

I would personally love to see the more criminal side of Tuluk played out.  But, for whatever reason, PCs simply don't try it.

Assassination is allowed.  Yet, do PCs buy assassin's licenses?  In all the time in Tuluk that I've played the only people who did so were my characters and a couple of their companions.  

It may be that there are loads of licenses being bought but I don't think it's happening.  I'm not certain as to the why this is.  This is a perfectly reasonable method of population control - you don't like someone - hire an assassin.  

If the assassination is successful then the templarate won't investigate fully.  Sure they'll go through the process but there will be no conviction since it was all done above board.

I would hope that the nobles would be a driving force in assassinations and this type of plot but I haven't seen them doing this for a long time.  I suspect people have a difficulty with wrapping their minds around going to the templarate and buying a license.  

Tuluk just continues to go through its growing pains.  As one aspect of Tuluk gets fleshed out others continue to languish and linger.  I think Bards of the Circle have found their niche and are well handled.  I think it is now time to start seeing PCs trying out the assassin route.

The systems are in place to allow this stuff to happen - that being templars who play regularly, licenses that can be bought, and documentation to back up that a license bought from a templar remains confidential.  I suspect that players may be thinking that any license they bought will be revealed to everyone else and this is limiting them.  Or, it may be that they are unaware that this is acceptable behavior.  Perhaps it is a lack of characters who are willing to make the attempt at assassination.

Whatever it is, I think it is sad that this aspect of Tuluki culture and society isn't being fully exploited.

Further, I think Tuluk is ready for some PCs to make a serious try at a criminal organization - perhaps an assassin's guild, perhaps a thieve's guild, perhaps a seedy-under-belly magicker nest.  Whatever it is - there is room and opportunity for it to happen.  I believe these things have been attempted on a couple of times but thus far nothing has stuck (to the best of my knowledge).

Tuluk is a city that still has ample opportunity to shape and create.   When someone feels something is missing in Tuluk then, usually, it is because it actually _is_ missing and the opportunity is there to create it.

The Byn is a good example - I believe there is a Byn compound in Tuluk but I do not think the Byn is making use of it for whatever reason.  I can see no reason why someone who thinks the Byn should become active in the North wouldn't app a Byn character with the awesome Byn imms and start it up again.  Perhaps the flavor of the Byn in the north would be a bit different than that in the south (not as obnoxiously stupid for example - sorry Bynners - I love you but being rude, obnoxious, and silly wouldn't fit in with Tuluk's personality) but it is very doable.  A mercenary doesn't have to be a disgustingly base, nose-picking, swearing, in-your-face, obnoxious brat.  

To all the Bynners who break that particular mold - way to go.  I love you guys the most.  For all the Bynners that play that role perfectly - I love you too.  It works, it fits, and it's great for Allanak.  For Tuluk, they could be rude and arrogant if they so wanted but the base behaviors and mannerisms would probably be a bit more 'refined' or subtle.. lol.. sorry, couldn't resist.  Instead of blatantly stating so and so is a kank-fucker a more insidious hint of them sexing up magickers would work just as well.  You can be very very dangerous and give that appearance without being in your face about it.

Anyway, I'm rambling... What I love about Tuluk is that fact that it isn't fully complete.  There is a lot missing and all it will take are some dedicated PCs to filling out these missing bits.  A lot of the organizations that existed in Old Tuluk weren't recreated (such as the criminal groups) and there's still a void waiting to be filled.

[Arbonne]

He decided to try Tuluk but didn't take the caste tattoo because his background had none of it in it. I, not having played in so long, didn't realize this is a death sentence in Tuluk.

That's definitely not true.  Tuluk is home to countless tribals from outside the Gol Krathu, it would be heresy for them to wear caste tattoos since they were not born there.  Tuluk is home to elves who have taken refuge in the city.  Tuluk is home to southern traitors (they're practically renown for this).  The mutants who assisted in the Liberation are not from Tuluk and, as such, also do not wear caste tattoos.  Tuluk is home to a great deal of people, many of whom were never born and therefore do not possess Tuluki tattoos.

Yes, Tuluk might be a home for these people, but they won't be getting anywhere far without some sort of protection that caste tattoos would normally have provided. Pretty much caste tattoos are an integral part of the Tuluki society, and those without it are likely to be considered outcasts.

[John]

I mostly always only play in Tuluk.. I think I haven't played in Allanak in over 3-4 years, honestly.. I'm going to tell you why.. Please don't shoot me afterward   ...........

Wow. All I can say is that you have had a very different experience then I. An extremely different experience.

I could refute every single point you made, but I won't. I'll just leave it at "that isn't how Tuluk has been for me."

Having said that, I'm definitely willing to admit crime needs work.

[Intrepid]

A new crime clan should definitely be kicked off by those who love Tuluk
the most, imo.  Those are going to be the northland fanatics who really
make the new org come to life.

Remember the large amounts of Tuluk fans posting to this board.  As
attrition kills off your current pcs, you might consider banding together to
add a new facet to the game.

[bardess]

The main reason that things are the way they are in Tuluk is because of the players, not for any reason IC.  I think we've gotten to a point where it's fairly understood that there's an IC reason behind most things that are in Tuluk.

I keep hearing about cliques in the posts in this thread.  This is not something that could be changed on an IC level.  I don't really understand and can't comment any further because I don't feel like I've ever experienced any 'cliques' IC.  Unless a character having a group of friends or associates is considered a clique, in which case I wouldn't understand why it was a bad thing... it'd be totally IC.

The reason there is no magick underbelly, no underworld crime, not many licensed hits, is because no one is playing those characters.  If you want to see the crime in Tuluk spike, make a northern thief.  If you want to see magick spike, make a northern 'gicker.  One thing I have noticed about Tuluk is that chars come and go in trends.  If someone tried to pull it off, and they could do it successfully, I guarantee that a group of players would make those sorts of chars to fill those roles.

An example of this is that a trend in Tuluk is Bards.  There are ten thousand, four hundred, and eighty-one bards in Tuluk right now.  People realized that if Bards are fun to be around, they must be twice as much fun to play.  So make an underworld char, and make it fun to be around.  The fad will follow you.

Not having a caste tattoo is not a death sentence.  Tuluk has tribal roots and likely, tribal PCs are not going to be killed.  Also, a southron is a probably not going to be killed, at least not for not having the caste tattoos.  However, if you aren't a citizen, every little thing you do is going to be amplified.

From the perspective of the Templars, however, comes the most important aspect of citizenship. Justice may be applied very differently to citizens and non-citizens, meaning the difference between a short stay in the dungeons and instant death.

The reason there are so many middle class characters in Tuluk is not because of Tuluk... but because that's what people are playing, and they are free to do so.  As far as I'm concerned, this is a game.  Play the kind of role you want to play in the city you want to play in.  There's realism, but there's also playabilty.  I'm not going to play the Tuluki equivalent of a 'rinth rat-- you know why?  I don't want to.  If you want to play an ugly, dirty, smelly, mean, bitchy, lazy begger, then go ahead.  Like I said, spark a trend.

[Jherlen]

Marko, let me start off by saying I enjoyed your post and thought it made some very accurate points. There was one thing in particular, though, that I think illustrates why some people make some of the complaints about Tuluk not being harsh, gritty, etc.

Let me also preface this by saying I've never played in the Byn, just around them.

The Byn is a good example - I believe there is a Byn compound in Tuluk but I do not think the Byn is making use of it for whatever reason.  I can see no reason why someone who thinks the Byn should become active in the North wouldn't app a Byn character with the awesome Byn imms and start it up again.  Perhaps the flavor of the Byn in the north would be a bit different than that in the south (not as obnoxiously stupid for example - sorry Bynners - I love you but being rude, obnoxious, and silly wouldn't fit in with Tuluk's personality) but it is very doable.  A mercenary doesn't have to be a disgustingly base, nose-picking, swearing, in-your-face, obnoxious brat.  

To all the Bynners who break that particular mold - way to go.  I love you guys the most.  For all the Bynners that play that role perfectly - I love you too.  It works, it fits, and it's great for Allanak.  For Tuluk, they could be rude and arrogant if they so wanted but the base behaviors and mannerisms would probably be a bit more 'refined' or subtle.. lol.. sorry, couldn't resist.  Instead of blatantly stating so and so is a kank-fucker a more insidious hint of them sexing up magickers would work just as well.  You can be very very dangerous and give that appearance without being in your face about it.

I read those things in bold, and I said: BINGO. Perceptions like that are why people say Tuluk is happy treehuggy fun land, without the grit that many people feel Zalanthas is supposed to be.

My question is: Why can't Byn mercenaries in Tuluk be every bit as much of the shit-shoveling, ale-swigging, foul-mouthed hooligans they are in Allanak?

Tuluk and Allanak are both BIG cities. They both have their own high society, cultured elements, which is where I would expect most of their differences to be readily apparent (and they are). On the other hand, they both also have their low society elements, and I would expect the differences here to be far less pronounced.

IMO, Tuluk can and should have gritty, drunken mercenaries. It should not be a society where nobody is ever rude, obnoxious, and silly. It has a whole three taverns which could support this type of element, which rarely get used. Tuluk should not be seen as a "more refined" city than Allanak just because everybody is playing a rich PC or bard and hangs out at the Sanctuary.

(Now, of course, the rude, obnoxious, and stupid people probably do not want to interact with the upper classes more than they ever have to, at risk of being disappeared. This too is like Allanak. You don't see Byn Runners swilling ale near Lady Borsail in the Trader's. You shouldn't see them swilling spice ale near Lady Winrothol in the Sanctuary, either. But Tuluk definitely has room for ale-swillers somewhere. I'd like to see more of them.)

[Delirium]

Jherlen makes a very good point.

From reading this thread, I believe the two main problems in Tuluk are:

1) a lack of a well-established criminal world
2) a lack of lower class PCs

Encouraging growth in those areas may help represent Tuluk as it "should" be.

[marko]

My question is: Why can't Byn mercenaries in Tuluk be every bit as much of the shit-shoveling, ale-swigging, foul-mouthed hooligans they are in Allanak?

The answer it is how Tuluk has developed due to its history and how its nobility acts.

To preface, no one is saying you cannot be rude in Tuluk nor can you be obnoxious it is just that it takes a different form.

Now, why is this the case?  Because Tuluk was taken over by Allanak and occupied.  For a period of forty years Tuluk suffered from Allanak's grip, Allanak's control, and Allanak's forced culture.

The moment this oppression was cast aside Tuluk changed.  The citizens of Tuluk did everything they could to differentiate themselves from Allanak.  This meant that where Allanak is bold, brutal, and in-your-face Tuluk became subtle, malicious, and backstabbing.  

This type of belief-set is systemic in Tuluk.  Is it a more polite society?  I don't think so.  I just think that Tuluk is different in how it portays being rude.  

People grow up in Tuluk surrounded by this and they do what they can to keep this going.  Will it change over time?  Quite possibly.

IMO, Tuluk can and should have gritty, drunken mercenaries. It should not be a society where nobody is ever rude, obnoxious, and silly.

Again, I'm not saying that this is not the case.  It is simply how people would go about doing it.  Being rude in Tuluk leads to being killed.  Either by being dissapeared by the templarate or by being assassinated by the person you were rude to.  This instills a pretty basic understanding that being overtly obnoxious is a way to die.

In Allanak it is easy to be rude.  Pull out a weapon, get into a brawl, throw your beer into someone's face, swear a lot, insult their mother and the skinny she mated with... whatever.

In Tuluk, it's a little different.  If you do any of this stuff overtly you can expect to find an assassin coming after you.  This makes people more careful.  This leads to a different set of methods of being rude and obnoxious.   This doesn't mean that Tuluki citizens don't swear or anything like that - it's just a different manner.  

It has a whole three taverns which could support this type of element, which rarely get used. Tuluk should not be seen as a "more refined" city than Allanak just because everybody is playing a rich PC or bard and hangs out at the Sanctuary.

I agree with this.  Tuluk's population isn't richer per se (although I may think about this comment a bit more since in allanak the rich have only gotten richer and the poor have become ever more poorer whereas in Tuluk it seems that there is a broader 'middle class' that exists) - but it does make an attempt to not be as "base" as Allanak's.  But even the most simple of gatherer can endeavor to be more refined than one in Allanak.  The life style, the culture, the environment, and the history of the two places are significantly different to produce significantly different people.

(Now, of course, the rude, obnoxious, and stupid people probably do not want to interact with the upper classes more than they ever have to, at risk of being disappeared. This too is like Allanak. You don't see Byn Runners swilling ale near Lady Borsail in the Trader's. You shouldn't see them swilling spice ale near Lady Winrothol in the Sanctuary, either. But Tuluk definitely has room for ale-swillers somewhere. I'd like to see more of them.)

Again, I agree with the last sentiment.  But, the first part is a bit off in my view - even commoners can hire assassins to kill one another.  In fact, this is where it would be most... common.  As for how the noble caste and common caste interact - it is a symbiotic relationship.  The noble caste depends upon the common caste and the common caste, in turn, depends upon the noble caste.  Because of this, the noble caste and the common caste mingle freely and regularly.  Therefore, I would argue, that if there was a need of a noble for an ale-swiller then you'd see them swilling their ales together in whichever pub they care to.  Everyone in Tuluk knows the castes.  There's no need to artificially reinforce them by seperation of people like in Allanak (written, of course, from a Tuluki viewpoint).

In Tuluk it doesn't matter what caste one is there is no preferential treatment as to who gets dissapeared.  A commoner interacting with a commoner is as likely to dissapear as a commoner interacting with a noble.  There are rumors of nobles dissapearing as well.  Dissapearing is what happens to people who step out of line.  Assassination is what happens to people who upset other people.

Will Tuluk have its grunts?  Absolutely.  Will it have mercenaries?  Certainly.  Will it have shit shovelers?  Of course.  Will these people act the same way as they would if they were in Allanak?  I don't think so.  

I think that they would make their own attempt at being 'subtle' and 'clever.'  Would they be successful?  Probably not really.  Simple people tend to be simple people.

Their feuds would spill over and make use of assassins (assassination is very affordable).  Would someone who runs up to another person and spits at them be ridiculed?  Yup.  Would someone who uses a lot of swearing and cussing be looked down upon by their peers?  Yep - again because this is perceived to be an Allanaki lifestyle choice.

In the end, I think people have taken the whole subtle bit to its extreme (which is natural for an evolving and budding culture) and have tossed being rude completely out the window.  Rudeness would exist.  It'd just take a different form.  

Tuluk isn't about being friendly and hugging one another.  Tuluk is about being just enough paranoid that you don't offend the wrong person.  By all means, offend the right people as much as you want.  There's no need to pull punches but remember... there are assassins, there are neighbors who are watching your every move and word and are ready to report anything to the templarate, and there are persistant rumors of being vanished for stepping out of line.

[Jherlen]

Again, I think Marko makes very good points.

My concern is that, for PCs, the way things are currently is not the way Marko has described them.

I would LOVE to see people being assassinated more commonly in Tuluk for being rude, being uncouth, being obnoxious, etc. Unfortunately right now I don't think this is the case. If it were, I could buy into Marko's argument a whole lot more.

I agree with Delerium that what Tuluk seems to need a deeper society with more lower class PCs, and a more established criminal element (both sanctioned and unsanctioned, I'd think.)

---

A tangential argument (probably one for another thread) would be about the frequency of assassinations in Tuluk. Licenses cost money, and killing people isn't always easy. I'm curious if Joe the Tuluki Baker would be able to afford hiring an assassin to kill Jane the Tuluki Butcher. Would the assassins capable of pulling off kills be beyond his budget? Hiring professional thieves to disrupt a business or a person's life seems more feasible for the lower classes.

[marko]

... Unfortunately right now I don't think this is the case. If it were, I could buy into Marko's argument a whole lot more.

I agree with Delerium that what Tuluk seems to need a deeper society with more lower class PCs, and a more established criminal element (both sanctioned and unsanctioned, I'd think.)

I'm in agreement as well.  This is a part of Tuluk that still needs fleshing from a player perspective.  There is a huge opportunity to shape generations of Tulukis by working on this now.

When I talk about this stuff I tend to speak of more how I see Tuluk as opposed to how it necessarily is at the moment.  I hope that, somehow, my vision slips out and becomes the reality of the player base.  

Licenses cost money, and killing people isn't always easy. I'm curious if Joe the Tuluki Baker would be able to afford hiring an assassin to kill Jane the Tuluki Butcher. Would the assassins capable of pulling off kills be beyond his budget? Hiring professional thieves to disrupt a business or a person's life seems more feasible for the lower classes.

Licenses aren't that expensive.  Although, I would guess that assassins would charge however much they wish to charge and you get what you pay for.  Conversely, a commoner is just a commoner and therefore probably isn't hugely difficult to kill.  So the price would be kept low.  I'd guess that the costs would be well under a thousand 'sid - maybe even a couple hundred 'sid or lower depending on the target (of course higher would exist as well).  I agree with the professional thieves bit as well - another great way to get back at someone without necessarily killing them.

Hire a thief to plague some guy, steal all their stuff, etc etc.  Good Tuluki way of revenge that doesn't involve death.

[Armaddict]

So the price would be kept low. I'd guess that the costs would be well under a thousand 'sid - maybe even a couple hundred 'sid or lower depending on the target (of course higher would exist as well).

Part of the problem with getting people assassinated.  It's never kept this low, because even the most lowly, unimportant target carries the risk of getting caught and destroyed, despite the fact it really shouldn't matter to most.

[marko]

Part of the problem with getting people assassinated.  It's never kept this low, because even the most lowly, unimportant target carries the risk of getting caught and destroyed, despite the fact it really shouldn't matter to most.

Typically when PCs are involved they wish to assassinate important people (tm).  People like aides, servants, merchants, nobles, even templars.  With the risk of the kill the cost would naturally go up.

If someone was unaffiliated and a nobody the cost shouldn't be high at all.  But, if someone is, for example, the aide of a noble then you'd be looking at a greater risk and thus a higher price.

[Arbonne]

Part of the problem with getting people assassinated.  It's never kept this low, because even the most lowly, unimportant target carries the risk of getting caught and destroyed, despite the fact it really shouldn't matter to most.

The thing is, a good assassin would have a good name, meaning he wouldn't have been caught, or at least caught easily. So, if a commoner wanted to take out another low commoner, he might be able to afford a cheap assassin, but there's a risk that the assassin would be caught and spill out who hired him. On the other hand, to better ensure this doesn't happen, it would cost the commoner more coins. Pretty much, the better the name of the assassin is, the more expensive the services will be. That goes the same with thieves.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I like tuluk.

'Nuff said.


My only bite with anybody is.. if you want to play in tuluk and experience it from that point of view, stop making southerners to play up north and play a krath-struck northerner like intended.

[Anonymous]

Whoa, I'm slightly suspicious that this Guest is Davien who manted to make his point clearer by attempting to argue for Tuluk in a manner the guest did.

I think this guests's 'pro-tuluk' post explained more flaws within Tuluk then all other anti-tuluk ones.

Folker

No, because unlike you Tuluki pisswits, I see no reason to hide behind anonymity. ;)  (kidding - I just am not a big fan of posting anon unless by accident, and I'll sign it.)

He decided to try Tuluk but didn't take the caste tattoo because his background had none of it in it. I, not having played in so long, didn't realize this is a death sentence in Tuluk.

That's definitely not true....

Ok, there were so many people who refused to hire you, solicit your services, or even TALK to you because you didn't have a caste tattoo, it was a death sentence.

And for people who are working under the blind assumption that asshole templars only exist in the South, let me correct that right now.  I can't say any more about it except that the Tuluki templar I met made Allanaki templars look like patrons of finesse, manners, and guile.

[Nao]

Yes, Tuluk might be a home for these people, but they won't be getting anywhere far without some sort of protection that caste tattoos would normally have provided. Pretty much caste tattoos are an integral part of the Tuluki society, and those without it are likely to be considered outcasts.

I remember one great pc that climbed up as far as a commoner can go on the social ladder - without caste tattoos.
This should really be fine iof you wear gloves and something about your neck so it's not too obvious.

[Pantoufle]

Yes, Tuluk might be a home for these people, but they won't be getting anywhere far without some sort of protection that caste tattoos would normally have provided. Pretty much caste tattoos are an integral part of the Tuluki society, and those without it are likely to be considered outcasts.

You are mistaken.  The mutants who assisted in the Liberation of Tuluk frequetly act as militia.  Because they do not have ancestral roots in the Gol Krathu they cannot and will not wear Tuluki caste tattoos.  The same could be said of rebels and Blackmoon raiders who assisted in the Liberation, many of whom are not from the city proper.  Despite this, they seem to have a respectable status within the city-state.  Furthermore, southern traitors who work for Tuluk are capable of achieving a relatively high status (as has happened with many PCs in game).  Generally, those without tattoos are perceived as outsiders, yes, and as such they probably aren't always received in a very positive light by the locals, but that's not true in every scenario, as is evidenced in the irrifutible examples listed above.

Besides which, that isn't the point.  Someone said that you will be killed for not having these tattoos in Tuluk and I only wish to point out that this isn't even remotely close to being true.

[Rindan The On a Break]

A big problem with starting a criminal underbelly in Tuluk is the logistics.  Allanaki criminal activity is always propped up by the fact that when all else fails, you can deal in spice and hide in the 'rinth.  Tuluk on the other hand has almost nothing short of magical goods that can get you in trouble, and dealing with magik is not really a healthy way to make a full time job in Tuluk.  You basically are left with thievery, extortion, and assassination in terms of criminal activities.  All three of the above are HARD.  Tuluk makes these things even harder.

In Allanak, if heat builds you can always lay low in the commons, slam back a few brews in your favorite 'rinth tavern, smoke some spice, and wait for the Templar of the week die.  Inside the 'rinth, the law is really only going to get its hands on you if you managed to piss them off enough to hire a thug to come kick your ass.  Even then, a thug is likely to piss someone off making blood stains doing Templar work in an owned tavern.

Tuluk on the other hand really lacks a suitable place for criminals.  Yes, I know that Tuluk has its "seedy" areas, but these areas are nothing like the 'rinth.  To be a truly "seedy" area, it needs to be a no-go zone for the law and have a place to socialize and do business (a tavern).  If it doesn't have those two things in the same spot, it isn't an effective seedy area.  In a MUD where all it takes is a PC to be within a room or two of you to make an instant identification, no-go areas where shadies can meet are absolutely vital.  It is far too easy for a single determined militiaman to search an entire city in under a day.  

To add insult to injury, the lack of a good 'seedy' area makes it damn near impossible to put together a crew.  It is damn hard put together a crew in Allanak even though it has a great no-go area and effective socialization spots.  Tuluk lacks these places to build a crew, and to make matters worse, has almost no influx of criminals.  Collecting like minded criminals into an organization in Tuluk is like trying to fill sieve with a faucet that just drips once ever minute.  You are probably better off to import Southern talent the find the homegrown version.

Now, let's pretend you can gather a crew and find a spot where the militia will not be constantly breathing down your back.  Now what?  Well, like I said, you have thievery, extortion, and assassination open as business ventures.  Of those three, two of those involve murdering (or at least threatening) to murder someone.  The crime code is pretty much insta-kill in Tuluk with no hope of escape to a safer place, so you need to conduct all of your activities in such a way that the crime code isn't activated.

Simply put, from a purely OOC perspective, criminal activity in Tuluk is a tall order.  In a place with almost no PC city elves, very few criminals, and the ability to make large wads of cash off the environment, finding people willing to take on risky activity is hard.  Replacing people lost in the attraction that any criminal group faces is even harder, especially when running high risk operations.

In order to pull this off it takes two, probably three things.  First, there are some OOC logistical issues that need to be resolved.  There needs to be a tavern in a no-go zone that any n00b criminal can find with an ounce of common sense.  There needs to be a very strong leader with the patience of a saint to build a crew and keep them from suicide/stupid deaths.  

Finally, it needs strong imm support[/b].  It needs Kurac or Byn level imm support.  It needs an NPC that steps in to rebuild once everyone else is dead.  It needs an imm that will implement criminal activity outside of the coded norms.  If the clan needs a room to spar in, someone needs to build it.  If the clan needs the ability to pay off soldiers to "take a break" to make a section of street not crime coded at a certain time on a particular night to convince a certain merchant to pay his protection money, an imm needs to do it.  The crime code is too harsh and the criminals far too few to do the Allanaki style "kill a thousand criminals and the 5 people who survive form a semi-long lasting clan".  

People will say that PCs should build this from scratch without imm support.  Bullocks I say.  The only PCs that can do this are people that have 12 hours a day to blow in a game, a massive understanding of the game, organizational experience, and the patience of a saint.  So that narrows it down to like 5 players, none of which I even know if they still actively play.  If the imms really want Tuluk to have this niche, it is going to have to be built like any other imm run clan.

*All this is based upon my criminal experience in Allanak and my knowledge of Tuluk crime code / layout which (admittedly) is dated and could be inaccurate.

~Rindan The "on a break and just checking in, but is starting to feel addiction rise, but really has no time, but might try and make time by completely cutting out sleep to feed Armageddon addiction"

[Pantoufle]

Those are pretty good points, Rindan.

I think the criminal setup in Allanak and Tuluk should be reversed, based on what you've said.  In Allanak, the very nature of the Labyrinth and what's illegal in the city means that any criminal organization could be easily setup with PCs alone and little to no staff intervention (the Labyrinth doesn't need a coded crime clan in order for its criminal activity to thrive).  Whereas the setup of Tuluk may need coded support if it's ever to reach the desired criminal level.  The flipside of the argument, however is that this may be intentional.  In a sense, Tuluk's templars is the city's "Thieves Guild".  If you live in a city where stealing is practically legalized (note I said practically), then the only way this could work without the entire economy crumbling into ruin would be if the crime was not only monitored by the government, but also controlled by them as well.  In that sense, criminals need neither a place to run and hide, nor to setup a coded criminal organization.  Furthermore, if you think the North is so fruitful for hunters, try playing a thief in Tuluk.  It can be even more fruitful!  So there's plenty of reason for people to want to play a thief up there.  I just think the style of thief most players want to play is the slumming ghetto dwelling cutthroat (your standard Allanaki fare) over a sly, gentlemanly rogue (which may be a description better attributed to Tuluk's type of thief).

Arguably, there are places for the seedy type to lay low in Tuluk.  Primarily, the ruins.  But the terrain of the ruins makes it unenjoyable even on an OOC level.  There is also something to be said for Under Tuluk but, again, simply getting there is a tiresome chore.  The Labyrinth is easily accessible to the rest of Allanak, Under Tuluk is not easily accessible to the rest of Tuluk.

[FightClub]

*cough this thread needs to be locked so i'll drive the nail, since I generally kill threads cough*

Tuluk is awesome, period.

In nak' you got your true grit, you're flamboyant acts of brutality, your spitting bynners, and your templars that often enie menie miny moe a patron to dismember out of a crowd. Then drag them off with 15 half giant guards.  Awesome that's Allanak.

In Tuluk, you got your true grit, then you got flamboyant bards, your spitting bynners, and your templars that often enie menie miny moe a patron to dismember out of a crowd.  Then subtly make them dissapear a week later.
Awesome that's Tuluk.

Well -- yeah it's safe to say they're different, but it's a good kind of different.  You're in different playing fields, aspects of the world.  Tuluk's culture is just as gritty, plenty of people get whacked every day.  Fights happen just as they happen in 'nak, and more than enough shit gets talked.  Does it take away from the game? No, players? Hell no.  Simply put -- you don't like Tuluk, keep your ass in Luir's Redstorm, Allanak, or wherever you're pro-active, no one is forcing you to play there.

Tuluk is the way it is for a reason, it will stay that way *thumbs up, and waves*

-Fight

[Pantoufle]

I agree, FightClub.

I think the root of people's animosity towards Tuluk is it's style and flair.  These people seem to be of the belief that every single facet of the game must be described as 100% dirty, gruesome, and abysmal without any shread of culture whatsoever.  Their logic is that this equates to "harsh".  Yet think back to the Ottoman Empire.  These were the very people who invented the idea of impalement, mind you!  They lived in a wickedly corrupt society, with everyone from the lowliest beggar to the richest nobleman struggling to survive.  Yet their culture was one of the richest the world over.  They invented the Turkish Bath, for chrissake!  The anti-Tuluk players would hear that and say "Oh, they're wusses, they're not harsh".  

Though I'm one of the first people to criticize Tuluk for its faults, I'm not a member of this virtual "I Hate Tuluk Club" which seems to exist.  PKilling equals harsh, to these people, and any other form of competition or attack is for pansy wusses.  Did you know that gith sometimes settle disputes with a challenge of storytelling?  *gasp* You mean they don't always KILL?  What wusses, burn them along with Tuluk, right?  That's what the members of the "I Hate Tuluk Club" must be thinking according to their own logic.

I think the North exists for all of the reasons stated above.  ArmageddonMUD is a game which requires a MINIMUM, a BARE minimum of 4 lines for a description.  I've known players apply for gladiator PCs (back when the arena was open) and have their application rejected because it wasn't in depth enough, so the imm sent them to go expand on their concept.  Now here's a character who may only live for 10 minutes and he's being asked to expand on his character concept!  Furthermore, this is a game where RP is not suggested but required.  Many of our players come from MUSHes (the source of absolute RP and storytelling).  It's only natural that somewhere in this game there should be an outlet for players that wish to focus on something besides kill, kill, kill, dirt, dirt, dirt.  If the members of the "I Hate Tuluuk Club" actually got what they wanted (Tuluk's destruction), they'd likely see the playerbase diminish as a result.  Arm needs a source for players who want to play something besides a one-eyed, stinky barrel-chested oaf of a mercenary.  Even in the harsh environment of this game, there should be room for people who want to play something besides brute murderers.  After a while, it starts to sound like what most people are asking for is the game to be one big version of the Labyrinth.  What a shame some people are opposed to variety.

The root of the whole Tuluk Doesn't Fit w/the Rest of the Game argument is based on the misconception that attributes such as civility, class, and style cannot exist in a harsh environment.  Thankfully, they actually can exist in a harsh environment and despite all of Tuluk's flaws, I don't think this is one of them.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Good post, Fight Club.

[Arbonne]

One flaw about Tuluk (or rather, any other place with a similar situation) can be traced to its playerbase. If there aren't enough criminals to begin with, there won't be any organized crime groups formed, if there aren't enough hunters, no hunter groups form. In Allanak, at least from my observation, not only does it have a relatively large playerbase (including the rinth) there is also a larger density of players. In Tuluk, because the taverns and local meeting places can be so spread out, even during peek times except on those days when everyone flocks to the Sancuary, you won't find very many PCs.

[SpyGuy]

First, good posts Fightclub and Pantoufle.  But I'd like to remind you both that Allanak isn't purely about grit.  It's about grit and opulence.  It's about class tensions and inherent conflict.  It's about trying to claw your way up in social standing or getting offed on the way for showing too much ambition.  But it can also be about struggling to survive under oppression and about striking back at your rich oppressors.  And in no way is Allanak confined to death for punishment or challenge, but the option is always on the table.

My opinion of Tuluk is that it's a great concept.  A fantasy version of 1984.  But what it lacks (in my limited experience, take all this lightly) is the oppression of a dystopia.  People genuinely seem happy to be in Tuluk and are proud of their culture.  Most PCs seem to be in a healthy middle class, chilling at the Sanctuary and maybe even chatting it up with a Chosen Lord.  I'm sure there's conflict like many people have said in this and other threads but there seems to be very little struggle going on.  Struggle is what I love about Allanak, anything else just seems bland in comparison.

Eventually I plan on making another Tuluki character with the express purpose of learning its culture better and trying to play it well.  But continuously that concept gets delayed for me because Allanak just feels right.  I realize this isn't for everyone but I for one just never want to see Tuluk as a purely bland, happy city that mirrors your typical fantasy world.  Maybe it doesn't and I'm just missing the big picture but perhaps it does need a little more Murder, Corruption and Betrayal going on.