I...Jmordetsky..hate the way.

[jmordetsky]

I hate the way. I hate it so much. I hate it like Jen hates Angelina. I hate it worse then 50 Cent hates Ja Rule. I hate it.

I h-a-t-e it.

Having FULL out conversations that could EASILY be had in person, should not be possible with the way.  It should be the SMS on a phone with a near dead battery form of communication.

I hate when people I don't know find my mind. I mean, they've never met me? How do they establish a telepath link with my mind if they've never me? The way yellow pages?

I hate when people tell me secrets over the way because they know the chances of a mindbender being in the room to overhear it are slim to none and no one else can know what just transpired.

I hate that people don't have to travel or send notes to contacts in other cities, or send messengers. They just tap the other persons magick "brain cell phone number" onto their temple and BANG instant un-tappable cell phone conversation.

I hate that instead of taking the risk of being seen with a shady element in person or sending messenger of some kind people will choose to sit in a tavern or their compound and just way.

I now OOCly make a purpose of not using the way unless it's completely impossible not to. I make spies come meet me, I don't care if they are afraid to be seen with my char or not, I force people to work it out. I make them find a nice hidden spot or send a third party messenger. I don't care, just don't fucking way me.  I've OOCly considered killing people that find my mind. I ICly justify it that I have an irrational fear of mindbenders or band headaches or something....I have threatened people who find the minds of the said characters for idle reasons with death and in all likelihood will carry it out if they way me for something stupid or in a tavern.

I actually don't think it aides in playability that much. Well, it does. But...it also takes away from playability. It seriously hinders espionage. I remember when I was playing a high profile, I would just hang out in my apartment and people would way me ALL day. The entire time I was logged in, all my affairs in 3 cities were settled via the way. There was no way a spy could eavesdrop on it. It also cuts out interaction with other players, gives small role characters less to do, and limits the use of mercenaries and guards, because you never really HAVE to go anywhere. The way doesn't aide in playability *that* much. It takes much more away from it. It's a crutch that keeps people from involving others for the sake of their own safety and IC interests.

I would REALLY. Really and very truly like to see it limited, but not removed.

1 - I would like to see the passout effect removed. So that you could way yourself down to 5 stun but not passout and simply way no more.

2-   Make contact more effective so, I could easily find the mind of someone and get them a message

3-   But, in exchange for these boosts, the tax of using the way should be increased significantly. Like to 1 message.  

For example if my stun was 90.

90/90> contact Halaster
Your mind weakens as you find the mind to the so and so imm.

50/90> psi Dude, what up?
You psi the so and so imm: "Go to the bard's barrel, Obi has a message from me."

Your mind weakens, forcing you to break contact.
5/90>


Again: Having FULL out conversations that could EASILY be had in person, should not be possible with the way. It should be the SMS on a phone with a near dead battery form of communication.


Make an effort people. Just don't do it.

[DesertT]

I agree.  More player interaction and more opportunity for other players to get themselves involved.  I like it.  I like it.  I like it.  I like it.

[Desertman]

I agree with everything stated above. The Way, why dont we just give out our Yahoo Messenger names to everone IC and save some time? I think only mind benders should be able to use the way personally. Though everyone would still need to be able to use Barrier, as a check and balance to Mind Benders. But yeah...my thoughts on it.

[jhunter]

I only use the way when I need to. I think it's fine like it is. I do agree that it's really strange and unrealistic when someone your pc has never met or even seen before suddenly contacts you.

[Larrath]

I personally always wished that Arm didn't have the Way at all.  However, with the way (ha ha pun) things are in the game right now, I can't see how it can be nerfed like this without making some trouble.
I'd love to see more reasons for literate PCs to make use of their literacy and more reasons for the illiterate PCs to really look up to those that -can- read and write, and I'd also like to see an aide running up and down the city so two Borsail nobles can discuss their opinions about the floppy-feathered hats Kadius has been making lately.  That would be awesome.

However, how will this affect interrogations done in-game?  How will this affect spies?  How about psionicists and other effects that require the Way?  Not to mention leaders such as Merchant Family or Templars - the amount of information a regular PC could pass to a templar is 'help!', while a Merchant Family could keep hearing 'I want the best sword you have'.
Sometimes it is good that a lot of information can be passed without requiring characters to meet, and like it or not (I know I don't), the Way is an important part of the game and I doubt it'll get any serious changes in the way it works.

[Tamarin]

Fine jmor, but realize that if something like this happened, a LOT about the game would have to be changed to match.  You can't make drastic changes like this without affecting all aspects of the game, because everything is symbiotic.  I agree, I'd LOVE to see people who are just messengers.  It would create all kinds of good stuff like travel and interaction.

But then you'd have to change all kinds of other skills to make this more realistic.  Listen and written languages are the two that come immediately to mind, but if I sat down for an hour to research this, I could probably find a few dozen other skills that would need to be tweaked as well.  I think one of the reasons that writing hasn't been learned by the masses is not so much because it's being squashed in the cities, but because the way is so prevalent that no one needs to read or write.  If the way starts to go....blam.  People are gonna start learning how to read and write, and I don't think there's a fucking thing any sorceror king could do about it.  

Something would also have to change about the cities.  As it stands, I just don't see the proper infrastructure in place for this sort of change.  Espionage would shoot through the roof, yet there are limited ways to actually do it: no rooftops, no windows, unbribable NPCs, weird streamlined city design (ie Tuluk and that's just my opinion for that one)...etc.

Do you see what I'm saying?

[jmordetsky]

Do you see what I'm saying?

Yes, but I don't agree. I think things would actually fall into place nicely. Certain things would take much longer....but it's a trade off I'm personally willing to make I feel we would adapt for the best. And worst comes to worse you could slowly tweak it back upward and find a nice balance. From 1 message to 2 messages to 3 etc if needed.

What I really want to get rid of is the full conversations. For example an in game colleague wayed me the other day something along the likes of "Hey, is that plan a go yet? I'm in at *blank*, lets talk."

So we went to the *blank* we met, went somewhere more private and discussed our plans in person. He never wayed me, I never wayed him. Things that weren't to be said, simply weren't said. It was very responsible use of the way.

The next RL day, this other PC wanted something from my character, but wouldn't meet in person, would talk about it. They just kept waying me, asking for it. Then I finally forced them to meet me somewhere quiet, and they WAYED me while we were talking, and we proceeded to have a conversation over the WAY while we talked about something else. For fear that someone was going to over hear.

This is just silly.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I have to agree, it seems like a "messenger" type char would be very profitable if there was no way, thus forcing more interaction.

Only downside is, what if they aren't online long enough to deliver the message, etc...

[Nusku]

Things like how much the Way costs to use, what is and isn't possible to do with it, and other such considerations were all design decisions. These things did not come about by accident. They were designed carefully and tested extensively before being implemented. They have been tweaked and tended to be exactly what the immortals intend for them to be.

Please understand, then, that you are both welcome to have and state your opinion on the Way - feedback is always welcome - but at present, we're quite happy with how it works.

[Many Faces]

but at present, we're quite happy with how it works.

I'm not sure jmordetsky agrees.

[jmordetsky]

Things like how much the Way costs to use, what is and isn't possible to do with it, and other such considerations were all design decisions. These things did not come about by accident. They were designed carefully and tested extensively before being implemented. They have been tweaked and tended to be exactly what the immortals intend for them to be.

Please understand, then, that you are both welcome to have and state your opinion on the Way - feedback is always welcome - but at present, we're quite happy with how it works.

I'm unhappy to read that.


Edit: As an aside, this has been a gripe of mine for some time - http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=71369&sid=513e3e25a71518ca02989b3c2e8e95f8

Other people to:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14147&;

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=142534&sid=e25c608d68082b72b32a01f9da1f012a

If I had my way (hee hee), we'd make it much, much harder for everyone and limit the effective range of it.  I've always loved the idea of having to send notes for those who can write, and messengers for those who can't.   The Way, specifically contact, is something that helps make the game a bit more playable since we don't have hundreds and hundreds of players online at once.

So, personally, I think it's fine the way (hee hee) it is.

Hal also eats children in the night...so...*shrug*

[Vanth]

I would caution people against ever thinking any way of communicating is "safe".  Some merchants think speaking in cavilish keeps them from being understood...wrong.  Some nobles think writing out their messages to other nobles will prevent them from being understood...again, not necessarily so.  Same goes for assuming the Way is safe.

I agree that it's a bit silly to have a conversation over the way that you could have in person..if there's only one person at a time you need to talk to.

However, say you're a noble with employees, plots etc. You may need to send instructions to your employees while in a meeting with a templar and some other nobles.

Or what if you're a militia soldier reporting a pursuit of a criminal to your commanding templar?  There would be no way to send updates:
"Some punk dragged Lady Oash into an alley and mugged her."
"He just turned down Miner's Way heading toward Templar's Way."
"Lost him on Templar's Way, we might need to check the buildings nearby."

On another note, if you don't want to be contactable, there is a skill everyone gets that you can use: barrier.

[Morfeus]

I like the Way as it is. I do not have any problem with anything stated above. But that's just me.

[Halaster]

but at present, we're quite happy with how it works.

Speak for yourself, buddy!

I'm not happy with it, however, I'm willing to live with it for sake of playability and newbies and other things I won't mention.

[Cale_Knight]

If newbies are one of the primary reasons for keeping it, why make The Way one of the major stumbling block for newbies by having it so difficult to use at the start?

[Marauder Moe]

I dislike the Way as well, but I understand we don't really have the population to support a game without easy long-distance communication.

[SpyGuy]

Sorry Jmort, I disagree with just about everything you had to say.  I'm not saying you're wrong, you have good points, but its not how I'd like to see the game go.  Why?  Here are some examples of why it makes playability easier and why some of the things you mention are already necessary:

Player A is important and usually plays a lot.  He has employees report to him all the time so he can approve plans, etc.  But for 2 weeks he's busy at work, can only play 2-3 nights a week for an hour or two each.  Without the way that player, even though his PC would be virtually available, would be unable to get all he needed done.  If he had to meet every person in person, or find the one messenger he trusted with ALL his info for 3 cities, it would simply take too much time/organization.  With the Way he can handle all the small business of reports easily (considering the needed people are online, which is risky anyway).

People can naturally handle a lot more business over the way than they could in person.  From my experience plots trickle downward, affecting more people, when they are allowed to grow.  If nerfing the Way hurts people's ability to form plots I'm not in favor.

Messenger PCs sound great on paper, but I don't think they'd work.  Why?  Because what happens if there is a shortage of PCs wanting to play messenger types in a given area?  We already know that no one is trustworthy on Zalanthas, so are we going to start recruiting Amos the new commoner to deliver our sekrit messages?  I actually think this would hinder plots and espionage more than it'd help it.

Add to that the fact that secret meetings do exist.  They happen all the time.  The way is great for info, for organization and for dicking around.  But what happens when you need to pay the spy cold hard obsidian in exchange for your goods?  You go meet with him in person, or send a messenger, to get your stuff.

People meet in person all the time.  Personally I find it cool that two players could be sitting across a tavern from one another, in separate conversation, but secretly making plans they think can't be easily overheard.  Killing the Way would just make things more dangerous in the planning stages (ie. before the plots begin to involve other people) rather than in the payoff period where the parties need to meet to exchange coin/goods/services.  If your PC doesn't want to use the Way more power to you, but expect people to react to it ICly and perhaps not want to deal with someone who can't be clandestine unless you're important enough that they'll put up with the inconvenience.  The Way is a crucial part of the IC structure of the game, I'm just hoping you're not expecting PCs to ignore the IC realities of it and play by your way because you don't like how psionics are structured.

[spawnloser]

If newbies are one of the primary reasons for keeping it, why make The Way one of the major stumbling block for newbies by having it so difficult to use at the start?

I maintain that it's not that hard a thing to get past.  Annoying?  Yes.  Difficult?  Not really.

[Cale_Knight]

I maintain that it's not that hard a thing to get past.  Annoying?  Yes.  Difficult?  Not really.

It's not difficult if you know what you're doing. But for a newbie, getting knocked out by using the way incorrectly and then getting subsequently robbed of your starting coins is enough to make you move on.

[Morfeus]

I maintain that it's not that hard a thing to get past.  Annoying?  Yes.  Difficult?  Not really.

It's not difficult if you know what you're doing. But for a newbie, getting knocked out by using the way incorrectly and then getting subsequently robbed of your starting coins is enough to make you move on.

I don't think this is really problem with the Way itself.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I completely agree with J. I don't want to see the Way disappear, but I would love to see it changed so that one can not have conversations over the way, and so that one needs to meet people and things.

I really hate the Way, the way it is now. That doesn't mean I won't use it, but I don't beleive I'd whine at all if it got made a much more taxing and less effecient talent.

[Dakurus]

So special app a sorceror or mastermind psi, with the long driven goal along some lines of defeating the mental powers of the masses. Be it through magick, drugs, genocide, or some other way.

Much as indicated in the post by Sanvean regarding changes in cities, this is something, if it ever happened, that would have to have progressive steps.

And even if nothing ever happened, it still might be fun.

[jmordetsky]

I maintain that it's not that hard a thing to get past.  Annoying?  Yes.  Difficult?  Not really.

It's not difficult if you know what you're doing. But for a newbie, getting knocked out by using the way incorrectly and then getting subsequently robbed of your starting coins is enough to make you move on.

I don't think this is really problem with the Way itself.

One might even consider that a benefit to keeping the way. Muhahaha.

:places his foot atop a pile of dead, coinless n00bs.

[bloodfromstone]

If newbies are one of the primary reasons for keeping it, why make The Way one of the major stumbling block for newbies by having it so difficult to use at the start?

I'd have to agree with this. Sure, it's easy to get good at contact once you're not a newbie anymore. Most knowledgable players can manage it in no time. But that really doesn't mean anything, since we're talking about newbies.

As far as contacting people you don't know, I'd chalk this up to playability purposes. If a Tor Lord tells an aide "Oh, you should find Douglas Salarr and order me a bone-handled, obsidian-bladed pizza slicer.", and you go about this task without trying to contact Douglas whenever your mind is free for a moment, you will, quite possibly, never ever meet Mr. Salarr. You can ask around. You can be told that he hangs out at the Barrel when he's off duty, and that he's usually in the compound when he's on duty. You can know that he likes to go to the Atrium and meet with Host Bert, but none of these things will matter, since we all only have limited times to be online. Personally, I'd rather not spend my time online sitting at somewhere that Douglas Salarr might show up sometime maybe so that I can get his intro.

However, I will agree that I'm not entirely happy with how the Way works at current. I do think it cuts down on face-to-face interaction, and I do think that people with spies and servants should have try to meet with them somewhere secret and quiet. If this became a common thing, however, we'd need that aspect of the world more fleshed out. At current, when you go to meet somewhere quiet, you have to kind of hope that no one else is doing the same thing at the one you pick out of the 3 designated secret meeting places.

[bloodfromstone]

Double post, sorries.