I...Jmordetsky..hate the way.

[Hymwen]

Removing the Way completely wouldn't work, in my opinion. How would you ever find someone if you can't communicate with them in any way other than meeting them? You have to find a merchant, but all you know is her name. How are you going to find her within reasonable time? What if she's in Tuluk and you're in Allanak? There is basically no way that you would find them unless you ran into them by coincidense, or happened to know someone who knows where that person is.

What I would suggest if I had any kind of influence, is to increase the cost of sending a message, a lot, maybe to 40-50 stun, but make it so that you don't fail trying to contact people (unless they're offline) so much. Especially as a new character, it's very common to fail 5-8 contact attempts in a row. You've got the Way for when it's necessary, people won't broadcast their thoughts like a radio channel, and new players get a chance to use this for them very necessary ability without throwing away 200 stun in the process.

[jmordetsky]

Removing the Way completely wouldn't work, in my opinion. How would you ever find someone if you can't communicate with them in any way other than meeting them? You have to find a merchant, but all you know is her name. How are you going to find her within reasonable time? What if she's in Tuluk and you're in Allanak? There is basically no way that you would find them unless you ran into them by coincidense, or happened to know someone who knows where that person is.

What I would suggest if I had any kind of influence, is to increase the cost of sending a message, a lot, maybe to 40-50 stun, but make it so that you don't fail trying to contact people (unless they're offline) so much. Especially as a new character, it's very common to fail 5-8 contact attempts in a row. You've got the Way for when it's necessary, people won't broadcast their thoughts like a radio channel, and new players get a chance to use this for them very necessary ability without throwing away 200 stun in the process.

I acutally suggested changing the way, not removing it.

[Maybe42or54]

I have a seven playing day old Pc that it took over 9 times to contact someone in the same room. I never did contact them, but I did give up.

[HunterKiller]

I personally always wished that Arm didn't have the Way at all.  

I snipped most of what Larrath said but I'm completely with you on this one, Larrath.  Normal folks should have NO contact at all.  None.  One or two guilds should have it for obvious reasons.  Perhaps psionicists and perhaps merchants (and maybe templars and nobles).  I would exclude merchants too but they suck to play (my opinion) so give em more is what I say.  heh.  If someone contacts you who have the special ability of contact, you can communicate with them.  Otherwise you can't use it at all.  Keep barrier since blocking your mind would seem more of a naturally self-taught skill and less complicated than finding a specific person's mind halfway across the sands.

I would like literacy to become more of a role in the game (especially in the North) as well as the messenger job for normal PCs.  contact is like a walkie-talkie with unlimited range, using your stun points like a rechargable battery.  The only reason I wouldn't want to lose it is for an ooc reason - to tell if a person is logged on.

- HK

[Socko]

I personally like the way. It's more open and prone to tapping into than you might think.

[Ghost]

I am with you J.  You made a quite good point on the cheesy way of using the Way, instead of actually going and meeting someone in person.

What I don't like about the Way is, it is overused.  I like it when people check each other if they can arrange a meeting time/place.  But carrying out entire conversations is just too much.  People even take it further and go to taverns, sit at the same table and stay quiet for hours just because they are carrying their conversations in the Way.  WTF?!?

And there is the thing about the spies.  Currently, being a spy is all too cheesy with very little danger of getting caught in the action.  I would rather see the spies working hard for delivering messages uncaught and in person.  Limiting the Way to one message at a time would make this very possible.

[jhunter]

If anything you'd think that some people would want messages to be delivered in person. How do you know that some 'bender isn't giving you false information via the way? Or any number of paranoid reasons some might have for messages being delivered in person.
I like how the way works currently. But, I've never really had conversations via the way. Most of the time it's a brief exchange and that's it. Anything more is done in person.

[Wykydtronn]

This is about the worse thing I hate about this game.

I love the game other wise but I hate... and I mean... hate the way.

For pretty much all reasons stated above.  They only chance for something to go bad via the way is two things, betrayal or a mind bender.  People are already pressed for role play and plots, so betrayal is rare.  Now how many mind benders do you think get app'ed for? 1 every month? Maybe rarer.  I'd bet money that its pretty rare to see one on, let alone be in the same city-state or even have said mind bender bother listening in on the conversation.  So that pretty much cuts out mind bender*.

Zalanthas is harsh, stop giving everyone a freaking cell phone.

*not to mention its quite twinkish for character to be waying around secrets because you the player knows the chance of a mind bender listening is a billion to 1.

Alas I'm not opposed to the way completely, but you can count me in on being one of those annoying assholes who will use barrier and force you to meet me in person.  I wouldn't mind seeing it used for short brief messages that cost drastic stun points but right now, its the Armageddon answer for the cell phone.[/b]

[Tamarin]

I maintain that if the Way becomes much less prominent then written languages must rise proportionally.

Honestly...nothing would be stopping spies from creating a symbological code written on paper and passing notes around.  From there, it's only a hop skip and a jump to full blown literacy, people.  If you can't see this...then....damn.  Just think about it, will you?  Please?  I will honestly be your friend.

What would you rather have, anyway: the way....(balls)...or written notes that can get intercepted, forged, and copied (ovaries)...?

Balls versus ovaries, people.  Come on now...

[EvilRoeSlade]

Honestly...nothing would be stopping spies from creating a symbological code written on paper and passing notes around.  From there, it's only a hop skip and a jump to full blown literacy, people.  If you can't see this...then....damn.  Just think about it, will you?  Please?  I will honestly be your friend.

That's right, nothing!

Except templars.

SCARY TEMPLARS

[SpyGuy]

*not to mention its quite twinkish for character to be waying around secrets because you the player knows the chance of a mind bender listening is a billion to 1.

[rant]This is not twinkish.  This is roleplay.  Not all PCs are good at the Way, but some PCs practice it often because there is a need for it in their roles.

This is not an RP debate, it's a design debate about the current form of the Way (and in the proper forum for that).  The Way is a part of Zalanthas, just as natural as seeing a half giant or walking out of the city and seeing a giant bug.  Zalanthans DO NOT typically find the Way unusual in any way.  VNPC and NPC hunters might even be Waying their VNPC families as they make camp for the night.

Creative use of the Way is therefore a part of being a spy or sneaky character on Zalanthas.  Saying one thing while waying another, all to throw off any potential spy or mindbender listening to just one side.  I'm not saying fluent wayers are what must be played but to call someone using the Way for their benefit twinkish or a bad RPer sounds ridiculous to me.  If you don't like that aspect of the game bring it up as your opinion but don't attack players who play the game without bias to an ability they are ICly born to have and use.[/rant]

[Wykydtronn]

Bah I knew I shouldn't of said anything.  Damn me.

I didn't mean to insult anyone.  Or even offend.

But I find it extremely cheesy that I've got my partner in crime waying me plans because he knows OOCly that no body could be possiably listening in.
When you have the masses who understand the concept of mind benders, but don't have any idea who's one, or if the goverment might have some working for them.

Again thats why I want it changed and future characters of mine won't be big users of the "way".  As I said, I don't think the way should be everyones own encrypted cell phone.

[spawnloser]

But I find it extremely cheesy that I've got my partner in crime waying me plans because he knows OOCly that no body could be possiably listening in.

How do you know that noone's listening in?

[Wykydtronn]

Logic and probability.

The chance that some one has the ability to listen in on the conversation is already at slim odds.

Then the chance that said person would even stumble upon the conversation.

Then there is the chance that they wouldn't even care or want to bother.

See where I am going?

OOC knowledge tells me that very few select people have the ability.  OOC knowledge tells me there is no vnpc mind benders scanning the masses.  And even if there is(technically)... Who's going to stop me? The VNPC power rangers? Unless some immortal would happen to stumble upon the conversation, but they're over taxed and stretched to thin already.  Unless some one is willing to take on the monumental task of "mind patrol".  I don't see the way being a dangerous way to communicate.
If your want to be a devious sneaky character, then you should also have to deal with the dangers of being such.  Due to how the way works, you may only ever see your allies/partners once.  Hell you can keep your hands fucking clean if your creative enough.  It be like you never had a part in it, if things happen to go south

I rather characters be forced to meet, be forced to cohort and plan in person.  Maybe the noble has to run the risk of having the paper trail lead back to them.  Even if you send an aide, they know who employs that aide.  But as it stands right now, a Noble could be running the 'rinth, and no one would by the wiser due to safety of "the way".  I want to see scandals, power structures tumble, I want to see powerful merchants forced to deal with some the dirtiest con-men in person.  I want the high figures of society hiring go betweens or going there in person.  Maybe for once, instead of that figure in the hood cloak isn't an assassin wanna be... maybe its a lord or lady who rather not be seen dealing with such lowly folk but is forced too.  Basically there should be some risk to making such plans.

Alas I'm getting to far off topic (which I apologize for).  I'm just going to go ahead and make a post in the role playing forum about the almost non-existent fear of using the way too communicate. http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=190307#190307

[Tamarin]

Honestly...nothing would be stopping spies from creating a symbological code written on paper and passing notes around.  From there, it's only a hop skip and a jump to full blown literacy, people.  If you can't see this...then....damn.  Just think about it, will you?  Please?  I will honestly be your friend.

That's right, nothing!

Except templars.

SCARY TEMPLARS

Aaaaahhh....cummon!  I've gotta believe that if the way was suddenly affected hugely, that some templar...somewhere...would see the logic in letting the people learn how to read in at least a limited capacity.  Literacy would have it's advantages and disadvantages to a city state, just like mass use of the way does.  I don't believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that either city state has the resources to monitor all of its population's Way-activity.  So then...why would the templars not have banned use of the Way?  To me it's kinda the same reason that reading and writing is banned: because it's not easily controlled.  So all you have to do is control other aspects of peoples' lives so literacy becomes a non-issue.  Don't you seeeee?  This is basic basic basic anthropology and sociology!

Zalanthas is a dry, dry place, and its people have a thirst!  A thirst for KNOWLEDGE!

[jhunter]

OOC knowledge tells me that very few select people have the ability. OOC knowledge tells me there is no vnpc mind benders scanning the masses. And even if there is(technically)... Who's going to stop me? The VNPC power rangers? Unless some immortal would happen to stumble upon the conversation, but they're over taxed and stretched to thin already. Unless some one is willing to take on the monumental task of "mind patrol". I don't see the way being a dangerous way to communicate.

This is your mistake. You shouldn't be using OOC knowledge to make your pc's decisions. ICly, for all your pc knows there could be a 'bender listening in at any given moment.

[Wykydtronn]

*not to mention its quite twinkish for character to be waying around secrets because you the player knows the chance of a mind bender listening is a billion to 1.

[rant]This is not twinkish.  This is roleplay.  Not all PCs are good at the Way, but some PCs practice it often because there is a need for it in their roles.

[/rant]

this is your mistake. You shouldn't be using OOC knowledge to make your pc's decisions. ICly, for all your pc knows there could be a 'bender listening in at any given moment.

But see thats the thing, I do play the paranoid bastard and I have a problem with players who don't.  Thats who I'm tallking about.  They use the OOC knowledge about "the way".  Knowing that the chances of a mind bender listening in is slim to none.

[jhunter]

And then when one fucks with them, and I'm sure at some point it will happen. They'll end up paying for it I'm sure.

[LauraMars]

The main reason I don't like the way is not because of the relative safety it offers (regardless of mindbenders) but the complete lack of anonymity it affords you.

So like, you just can't sleep with a guy and get him to add you to the rent on his apartment then make off with all his stuff in the night and pack it on your kank and ride to the next city to sit on the big pile of stuff you just stole and laugh without the guy getting all up in your head like, "Wtf j00 n00b I thought we were in 4 life!!11 My heart's broke man u suck bitch," forever and he keeps bothering you and he has a higher wisdom stat so he keeps breaking your mental barrier because barrier sucks ass anyway and finally you just have to go kill him and take all his stuff again.

That's why the way is dumb.

[jhunter]

LOL! That's a perfectly IC consequence to your actions. Are you saying that IC consequences for your actions are dumb?


*Snickers at LauraMars and her wish for "Way Call ID".*

[LauraMars]

LOL! That's a perfectly IC consequence to your actions. Are you saying that IC consequences for your actions are dumb?

NO!  But I do think it's dumb that you can't ride off and never be heard from again.  Even if you give a fake name, they can still find your mind easy.  It's just so less cool than if they hired people to track you down or did it themselves.

[jmordetsky]

LOL! That's a perfectly IC consequence to your actions. Are you saying that IC consequences for your actions are dumb?

NO!  But I do think it's dumb that you can't ride off and never be heard from again.  Even if you give a fake name, they can still find your mind easy.  It's just so less cool than if they hired people to track you down or did it themselves.

Seconded.

[jhunter]

LOL! That's a perfectly IC consequence to your actions. Are you saying that IC consequences for your actions are dumb?

NO!  But I do think it's dumb that you can't ride off and never be heard from again.  Even if you give a fake name, they can still find your mind easy.  It's just so less cool than if they hired people to track you down or did it themselves.

Seconded.

So, you guys hate the way because it makes it -harder- for you to easily fuck people over and disappear into nothingness?

That's specifically the reason I like it. It makes it harder for people just to randomly screw people over and think that there will never be any consequences to it. It makes people take the time to consider their actions more carefully and makes people be more -creative- in how they go about such things.

And barrier doesn't suck. You people just gotta use it more. I've screwed people over and kept them from ever reaching me again and that's -with- The Way in place.

Also, just because you can reach someone with The Way it doesn't mean that you can catch them. I've sent people after others, the way doesn't kill them for you unless you're 'bender. It doesn't capture them for you, unless perhaps you are a 'bender. Even with The Way you still have to use other means to capture/kill them. Usually that involves you doing it yourself or sending others after them.

[jmordetsky]

LOL! That's a perfectly IC consequence to your actions. Are you saying that IC consequences for your actions are dumb?

NO!  But I do think it's dumb that you can't ride off and never be heard from again.  Even if you give a fake name, they can still find your mind easy.  It's just so less cool than if they hired people to track you down or did it themselves.

Seconded.

So, you guys hate the way because it makes it -harder- for you to easily fuck people over and disappear into nothingness?

Yes. This is just yet another reason of many.

That's specifically the reason I like it.

*shrug* Different strokes.

[Kalden]

But see thats the thing, I do play the paranoid bastard and I have a problem with players who don't. Thats who I'm tallking about. They use the OOC knowledge about "the way". Knowing that the chances of a mind bender listening in is slim to none.

No. In the reality of the world the chances are very low. In the reality of the game the chances are very high. In a population of 100 PCs there's likely 1 or 2 or even 5 mindbenders. In the reality of the world there's likely 1 mindbender per 10,000 people, or even a higher ratio.

Characters shouldn't worry much about mindbenders.

And barrier doesn't suck. You people just gotta use it more. I've screwed people over and kept them from ever reaching me again and that's -with- The Way in place.

No, barrier SUCKS. It will continue to suck until barried's peoples' sdescs are no longer available over the Way.

When trying to contact someone who has a barrier up, one should get the message that they are unavailable, as if they were offline. Instead you contact them and find you can't send them a message. That's pretty f***** weak. I don't really care about the messages. I just don't want people to know that I'm still alive and ONLINE.

If barrier were beefed up, I'd be happy.

PLEASE REPLY jhunter