I...Jmordetsky..hate the way.

[jmordetsky]

I hate the way. I hate it so much. I hate it like Jen hates Angelina. I hate it worse then 50 Cent hates Ja Rule. I hate it.

I h-a-t-e it.

Having FULL out conversations that could EASILY be had in person, should not be possible with the way.  It should be the SMS on a phone with a near dead battery form of communication.

I hate when people I don't know find my mind. I mean, they've never met me? How do they establish a telepath link with my mind if they've never me? The way yellow pages?

I hate when people tell me secrets over the way because they know the chances of a mindbender being in the room to overhear it are slim to none and no one else can know what just transpired.

I hate that people don't have to travel or send notes to contacts in other cities, or send messengers. They just tap the other persons magick "brain cell phone number" onto their temple and BANG instant un-tappable cell phone conversation.

I hate that instead of taking the risk of being seen with a shady element in person or sending messenger of some kind people will choose to sit in a tavern or their compound and just way.

I now OOCly make a purpose of not using the way unless it's completely impossible not to. I make spies come meet me, I don't care if they are afraid to be seen with my char or not, I force people to work it out. I make them find a nice hidden spot or send a third party messenger. I don't care, just don't fucking way me.  I've OOCly considered killing people that find my mind. I ICly justify it that I have an irrational fear of mindbenders or band headaches or something....I have threatened people who find the minds of the said characters for idle reasons with death and in all likelihood will carry it out if they way me for something stupid or in a tavern.

I actually don't think it aides in playability that much. Well, it does. But...it also takes away from playability. It seriously hinders espionage. I remember when I was playing a high profile, I would just hang out in my apartment and people would way me ALL day. The entire time I was logged in, all my affairs in 3 cities were settled via the way. There was no way a spy could eavesdrop on it. It also cuts out interaction with other players, gives small role characters less to do, and limits the use of mercenaries and guards, because you never really HAVE to go anywhere. The way doesn't aide in playability *that* much. It takes much more away from it. It's a crutch that keeps people from involving others for the sake of their own safety and IC interests.

I would REALLY. Really and very truly like to see it limited, but not removed.

1 - I would like to see the passout effect removed. So that you could way yourself down to 5 stun but not passout and simply way no more.

2-   Make contact more effective so, I could easily find the mind of someone and get them a message

3-   But, in exchange for these boosts, the tax of using the way should be increased significantly. Like to 1 message.  

For example if my stun was 90.

90/90> contact Halaster
Your mind weakens as you find the mind to the so and so imm.

50/90> psi Dude, what up?
You psi the so and so imm: "Go to the bard's barrel, Obi has a message from me."

Your mind weakens, forcing you to break contact.
5/90>


Again: Having FULL out conversations that could EASILY be had in person, should not be possible with the way. It should be the SMS on a phone with a near dead battery form of communication.


Make an effort people. Just don't do it.

[DesertT]

I agree.  More player interaction and more opportunity for other players to get themselves involved.  I like it.  I like it.  I like it.  I like it.

[Desertman]

I agree with everything stated above. The Way, why dont we just give out our Yahoo Messenger names to everone IC and save some time? I think only mind benders should be able to use the way personally. Though everyone would still need to be able to use Barrier, as a check and balance to Mind Benders. But yeah...my thoughts on it.

[jhunter]

I only use the way when I need to. I think it's fine like it is. I do agree that it's really strange and unrealistic when someone your pc has never met or even seen before suddenly contacts you.

[Larrath]

I personally always wished that Arm didn't have the Way at all.  However, with the way (ha ha pun) things are in the game right now, I can't see how it can be nerfed like this without making some trouble.
I'd love to see more reasons for literate PCs to make use of their literacy and more reasons for the illiterate PCs to really look up to those that -can- read and write, and I'd also like to see an aide running up and down the city so two Borsail nobles can discuss their opinions about the floppy-feathered hats Kadius has been making lately.  That would be awesome.

However, how will this affect interrogations done in-game?  How will this affect spies?  How about psionicists and other effects that require the Way?  Not to mention leaders such as Merchant Family or Templars - the amount of information a regular PC could pass to a templar is 'help!', while a Merchant Family could keep hearing 'I want the best sword you have'.
Sometimes it is good that a lot of information can be passed without requiring characters to meet, and like it or not (I know I don't), the Way is an important part of the game and I doubt it'll get any serious changes in the way it works.

[Tamarin]

Fine jmor, but realize that if something like this happened, a LOT about the game would have to be changed to match.  You can't make drastic changes like this without affecting all aspects of the game, because everything is symbiotic.  I agree, I'd LOVE to see people who are just messengers.  It would create all kinds of good stuff like travel and interaction.

But then you'd have to change all kinds of other skills to make this more realistic.  Listen and written languages are the two that come immediately to mind, but if I sat down for an hour to research this, I could probably find a few dozen other skills that would need to be tweaked as well.  I think one of the reasons that writing hasn't been learned by the masses is not so much because it's being squashed in the cities, but because the way is so prevalent that no one needs to read or write.  If the way starts to go....blam.  People are gonna start learning how to read and write, and I don't think there's a fucking thing any sorceror king could do about it.  

Something would also have to change about the cities.  As it stands, I just don't see the proper infrastructure in place for this sort of change.  Espionage would shoot through the roof, yet there are limited ways to actually do it: no rooftops, no windows, unbribable NPCs, weird streamlined city design (ie Tuluk and that's just my opinion for that one)...etc.

Do you see what I'm saying?

[jmordetsky]

Do you see what I'm saying?

Yes, but I don't agree. I think things would actually fall into place nicely. Certain things would take much longer....but it's a trade off I'm personally willing to make I feel we would adapt for the best. And worst comes to worse you could slowly tweak it back upward and find a nice balance. From 1 message to 2 messages to 3 etc if needed.

What I really want to get rid of is the full conversations. For example an in game colleague wayed me the other day something along the likes of "Hey, is that plan a go yet? I'm in at *blank*, lets talk."

So we went to the *blank* we met, went somewhere more private and discussed our plans in person. He never wayed me, I never wayed him. Things that weren't to be said, simply weren't said. It was very responsible use of the way.

The next RL day, this other PC wanted something from my character, but wouldn't meet in person, would talk about it. They just kept waying me, asking for it. Then I finally forced them to meet me somewhere quiet, and they WAYED me while we were talking, and we proceeded to have a conversation over the WAY while we talked about something else. For fear that someone was going to over hear.

This is just silly.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I have to agree, it seems like a "messenger" type char would be very profitable if there was no way, thus forcing more interaction.

Only downside is, what if they aren't online long enough to deliver the message, etc...

[Nusku]

Things like how much the Way costs to use, what is and isn't possible to do with it, and other such considerations were all design decisions. These things did not come about by accident. They were designed carefully and tested extensively before being implemented. They have been tweaked and tended to be exactly what the immortals intend for them to be.

Please understand, then, that you are both welcome to have and state your opinion on the Way - feedback is always welcome - but at present, we're quite happy with how it works.

[Many Faces]

but at present, we're quite happy with how it works.

I'm not sure jmordetsky agrees.

[jmordetsky]

Things like how much the Way costs to use, what is and isn't possible to do with it, and other such considerations were all design decisions. These things did not come about by accident. They were designed carefully and tested extensively before being implemented. They have been tweaked and tended to be exactly what the immortals intend for them to be.

Please understand, then, that you are both welcome to have and state your opinion on the Way - feedback is always welcome - but at present, we're quite happy with how it works.

I'm unhappy to read that.


Edit: As an aside, this has been a gripe of mine for some time - http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=71369&sid=513e3e25a71518ca02989b3c2e8e95f8

Other people to:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14147&;

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=142534&sid=e25c608d68082b72b32a01f9da1f012a

If I had my way (hee hee), we'd make it much, much harder for everyone and limit the effective range of it.  I've always loved the idea of having to send notes for those who can write, and messengers for those who can't.   The Way, specifically contact, is something that helps make the game a bit more playable since we don't have hundreds and hundreds of players online at once.

So, personally, I think it's fine the way (hee hee) it is.

Hal also eats children in the night...so...*shrug*

[Vanth]

I would caution people against ever thinking any way of communicating is "safe".  Some merchants think speaking in cavilish keeps them from being understood...wrong.  Some nobles think writing out their messages to other nobles will prevent them from being understood...again, not necessarily so.  Same goes for assuming the Way is safe.

I agree that it's a bit silly to have a conversation over the way that you could have in person..if there's only one person at a time you need to talk to.

However, say you're a noble with employees, plots etc. You may need to send instructions to your employees while in a meeting with a templar and some other nobles.

Or what if you're a militia soldier reporting a pursuit of a criminal to your commanding templar?  There would be no way to send updates:
"Some punk dragged Lady Oash into an alley and mugged her."
"He just turned down Miner's Way heading toward Templar's Way."
"Lost him on Templar's Way, we might need to check the buildings nearby."

On another note, if you don't want to be contactable, there is a skill everyone gets that you can use: barrier.

[Morfeus]

I like the Way as it is. I do not have any problem with anything stated above. But that's just me.

[Halaster]

but at present, we're quite happy with how it works.

Speak for yourself, buddy!

I'm not happy with it, however, I'm willing to live with it for sake of playability and newbies and other things I won't mention.

[Cale_Knight]

If newbies are one of the primary reasons for keeping it, why make The Way one of the major stumbling block for newbies by having it so difficult to use at the start?

[Marauder Moe]

I dislike the Way as well, but I understand we don't really have the population to support a game without easy long-distance communication.

[SpyGuy]

Sorry Jmort, I disagree with just about everything you had to say.  I'm not saying you're wrong, you have good points, but its not how I'd like to see the game go.  Why?  Here are some examples of why it makes playability easier and why some of the things you mention are already necessary:

Player A is important and usually plays a lot.  He has employees report to him all the time so he can approve plans, etc.  But for 2 weeks he's busy at work, can only play 2-3 nights a week for an hour or two each.  Without the way that player, even though his PC would be virtually available, would be unable to get all he needed done.  If he had to meet every person in person, or find the one messenger he trusted with ALL his info for 3 cities, it would simply take too much time/organization.  With the Way he can handle all the small business of reports easily (considering the needed people are online, which is risky anyway).

People can naturally handle a lot more business over the way than they could in person.  From my experience plots trickle downward, affecting more people, when they are allowed to grow.  If nerfing the Way hurts people's ability to form plots I'm not in favor.

Messenger PCs sound great on paper, but I don't think they'd work.  Why?  Because what happens if there is a shortage of PCs wanting to play messenger types in a given area?  We already know that no one is trustworthy on Zalanthas, so are we going to start recruiting Amos the new commoner to deliver our sekrit messages?  I actually think this would hinder plots and espionage more than it'd help it.

Add to that the fact that secret meetings do exist.  They happen all the time.  The way is great for info, for organization and for dicking around.  But what happens when you need to pay the spy cold hard obsidian in exchange for your goods?  You go meet with him in person, or send a messenger, to get your stuff.

People meet in person all the time.  Personally I find it cool that two players could be sitting across a tavern from one another, in separate conversation, but secretly making plans they think can't be easily overheard.  Killing the Way would just make things more dangerous in the planning stages (ie. before the plots begin to involve other people) rather than in the payoff period where the parties need to meet to exchange coin/goods/services.  If your PC doesn't want to use the Way more power to you, but expect people to react to it ICly and perhaps not want to deal with someone who can't be clandestine unless you're important enough that they'll put up with the inconvenience.  The Way is a crucial part of the IC structure of the game, I'm just hoping you're not expecting PCs to ignore the IC realities of it and play by your way because you don't like how psionics are structured.

[spawnloser]

If newbies are one of the primary reasons for keeping it, why make The Way one of the major stumbling block for newbies by having it so difficult to use at the start?

I maintain that it's not that hard a thing to get past.  Annoying?  Yes.  Difficult?  Not really.

[Cale_Knight]

I maintain that it's not that hard a thing to get past.  Annoying?  Yes.  Difficult?  Not really.

It's not difficult if you know what you're doing. But for a newbie, getting knocked out by using the way incorrectly and then getting subsequently robbed of your starting coins is enough to make you move on.

[Morfeus]

I maintain that it's not that hard a thing to get past.  Annoying?  Yes.  Difficult?  Not really.

It's not difficult if you know what you're doing. But for a newbie, getting knocked out by using the way incorrectly and then getting subsequently robbed of your starting coins is enough to make you move on.

I don't think this is really problem with the Way itself.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I completely agree with J. I don't want to see the Way disappear, but I would love to see it changed so that one can not have conversations over the way, and so that one needs to meet people and things.

I really hate the Way, the way it is now. That doesn't mean I won't use it, but I don't beleive I'd whine at all if it got made a much more taxing and less effecient talent.

[Dakurus]

So special app a sorceror or mastermind psi, with the long driven goal along some lines of defeating the mental powers of the masses. Be it through magick, drugs, genocide, or some other way.

Much as indicated in the post by Sanvean regarding changes in cities, this is something, if it ever happened, that would have to have progressive steps.

And even if nothing ever happened, it still might be fun.

[jmordetsky]

I maintain that it's not that hard a thing to get past.  Annoying?  Yes.  Difficult?  Not really.

It's not difficult if you know what you're doing. But for a newbie, getting knocked out by using the way incorrectly and then getting subsequently robbed of your starting coins is enough to make you move on.

I don't think this is really problem with the Way itself.

One might even consider that a benefit to keeping the way. Muhahaha.

:places his foot atop a pile of dead, coinless n00bs.

[bloodfromstone]

If newbies are one of the primary reasons for keeping it, why make The Way one of the major stumbling block for newbies by having it so difficult to use at the start?

I'd have to agree with this. Sure, it's easy to get good at contact once you're not a newbie anymore. Most knowledgable players can manage it in no time. But that really doesn't mean anything, since we're talking about newbies.

As far as contacting people you don't know, I'd chalk this up to playability purposes. If a Tor Lord tells an aide "Oh, you should find Douglas Salarr and order me a bone-handled, obsidian-bladed pizza slicer.", and you go about this task without trying to contact Douglas whenever your mind is free for a moment, you will, quite possibly, never ever meet Mr. Salarr. You can ask around. You can be told that he hangs out at the Barrel when he's off duty, and that he's usually in the compound when he's on duty. You can know that he likes to go to the Atrium and meet with Host Bert, but none of these things will matter, since we all only have limited times to be online. Personally, I'd rather not spend my time online sitting at somewhere that Douglas Salarr might show up sometime maybe so that I can get his intro.

However, I will agree that I'm not entirely happy with how the Way works at current. I do think it cuts down on face-to-face interaction, and I do think that people with spies and servants should have try to meet with them somewhere secret and quiet. If this became a common thing, however, we'd need that aspect of the world more fleshed out. At current, when you go to meet somewhere quiet, you have to kind of hope that no one else is doing the same thing at the one you pick out of the 3 designated secret meeting places.

[bloodfromstone]

Double post, sorries.

[Hymwen]

Removing the Way completely wouldn't work, in my opinion. How would you ever find someone if you can't communicate with them in any way other than meeting them? You have to find a merchant, but all you know is her name. How are you going to find her within reasonable time? What if she's in Tuluk and you're in Allanak? There is basically no way that you would find them unless you ran into them by coincidense, or happened to know someone who knows where that person is.

What I would suggest if I had any kind of influence, is to increase the cost of sending a message, a lot, maybe to 40-50 stun, but make it so that you don't fail trying to contact people (unless they're offline) so much. Especially as a new character, it's very common to fail 5-8 contact attempts in a row. You've got the Way for when it's necessary, people won't broadcast their thoughts like a radio channel, and new players get a chance to use this for them very necessary ability without throwing away 200 stun in the process.

[jmordetsky]

Removing the Way completely wouldn't work, in my opinion. How would you ever find someone if you can't communicate with them in any way other than meeting them? You have to find a merchant, but all you know is her name. How are you going to find her within reasonable time? What if she's in Tuluk and you're in Allanak? There is basically no way that you would find them unless you ran into them by coincidense, or happened to know someone who knows where that person is.

What I would suggest if I had any kind of influence, is to increase the cost of sending a message, a lot, maybe to 40-50 stun, but make it so that you don't fail trying to contact people (unless they're offline) so much. Especially as a new character, it's very common to fail 5-8 contact attempts in a row. You've got the Way for when it's necessary, people won't broadcast their thoughts like a radio channel, and new players get a chance to use this for them very necessary ability without throwing away 200 stun in the process.

I acutally suggested changing the way, not removing it.

[Maybe42or54]

I have a seven playing day old Pc that it took over 9 times to contact someone in the same room. I never did contact them, but I did give up.

[HunterKiller]

I personally always wished that Arm didn't have the Way at all.  

I snipped most of what Larrath said but I'm completely with you on this one, Larrath.  Normal folks should have NO contact at all.  None.  One or two guilds should have it for obvious reasons.  Perhaps psionicists and perhaps merchants (and maybe templars and nobles).  I would exclude merchants too but they suck to play (my opinion) so give em more is what I say.  heh.  If someone contacts you who have the special ability of contact, you can communicate with them.  Otherwise you can't use it at all.  Keep barrier since blocking your mind would seem more of a naturally self-taught skill and less complicated than finding a specific person's mind halfway across the sands.

I would like literacy to become more of a role in the game (especially in the North) as well as the messenger job for normal PCs.  contact is like a walkie-talkie with unlimited range, using your stun points like a rechargable battery.  The only reason I wouldn't want to lose it is for an ooc reason - to tell if a person is logged on.

- HK

[Socko]

I personally like the way. It's more open and prone to tapping into than you might think.

[Ghost]

I am with you J.  You made a quite good point on the cheesy way of using the Way, instead of actually going and meeting someone in person.

What I don't like about the Way is, it is overused.  I like it when people check each other if they can arrange a meeting time/place.  But carrying out entire conversations is just too much.  People even take it further and go to taverns, sit at the same table and stay quiet for hours just because they are carrying their conversations in the Way.  WTF?!?

And there is the thing about the spies.  Currently, being a spy is all too cheesy with very little danger of getting caught in the action.  I would rather see the spies working hard for delivering messages uncaught and in person.  Limiting the Way to one message at a time would make this very possible.

[jhunter]

If anything you'd think that some people would want messages to be delivered in person. How do you know that some 'bender isn't giving you false information via the way? Or any number of paranoid reasons some might have for messages being delivered in person.
I like how the way works currently. But, I've never really had conversations via the way. Most of the time it's a brief exchange and that's it. Anything more is done in person.

[Wykydtronn]

This is about the worse thing I hate about this game.

I love the game other wise but I hate... and I mean... hate the way.

For pretty much all reasons stated above.  They only chance for something to go bad via the way is two things, betrayal or a mind bender.  People are already pressed for role play and plots, so betrayal is rare.  Now how many mind benders do you think get app'ed for? 1 every month? Maybe rarer.  I'd bet money that its pretty rare to see one on, let alone be in the same city-state or even have said mind bender bother listening in on the conversation.  So that pretty much cuts out mind bender*.

Zalanthas is harsh, stop giving everyone a freaking cell phone.

*not to mention its quite twinkish for character to be waying around secrets because you the player knows the chance of a mind bender listening is a billion to 1.

Alas I'm not opposed to the way completely, but you can count me in on being one of those annoying assholes who will use barrier and force you to meet me in person.  I wouldn't mind seeing it used for short brief messages that cost drastic stun points but right now, its the Armageddon answer for the cell phone.[/b]

[Tamarin]

I maintain that if the Way becomes much less prominent then written languages must rise proportionally.

Honestly...nothing would be stopping spies from creating a symbological code written on paper and passing notes around.  From there, it's only a hop skip and a jump to full blown literacy, people.  If you can't see this...then....damn.  Just think about it, will you?  Please?  I will honestly be your friend.

What would you rather have, anyway: the way....(balls)...or written notes that can get intercepted, forged, and copied (ovaries)...?

Balls versus ovaries, people.  Come on now...

[EvilRoeSlade]

Honestly...nothing would be stopping spies from creating a symbological code written on paper and passing notes around.  From there, it's only a hop skip and a jump to full blown literacy, people.  If you can't see this...then....damn.  Just think about it, will you?  Please?  I will honestly be your friend.

That's right, nothing!

Except templars.

SCARY TEMPLARS

[SpyGuy]

*not to mention its quite twinkish for character to be waying around secrets because you the player knows the chance of a mind bender listening is a billion to 1.

[rant]This is not twinkish.  This is roleplay.  Not all PCs are good at the Way, but some PCs practice it often because there is a need for it in their roles.

This is not an RP debate, it's a design debate about the current form of the Way (and in the proper forum for that).  The Way is a part of Zalanthas, just as natural as seeing a half giant or walking out of the city and seeing a giant bug.  Zalanthans DO NOT typically find the Way unusual in any way.  VNPC and NPC hunters might even be Waying their VNPC families as they make camp for the night.

Creative use of the Way is therefore a part of being a spy or sneaky character on Zalanthas.  Saying one thing while waying another, all to throw off any potential spy or mindbender listening to just one side.  I'm not saying fluent wayers are what must be played but to call someone using the Way for their benefit twinkish or a bad RPer sounds ridiculous to me.  If you don't like that aspect of the game bring it up as your opinion but don't attack players who play the game without bias to an ability they are ICly born to have and use.[/rant]

[Wykydtronn]

Bah I knew I shouldn't of said anything.  Damn me.

I didn't mean to insult anyone.  Or even offend.

But I find it extremely cheesy that I've got my partner in crime waying me plans because he knows OOCly that no body could be possiably listening in.
When you have the masses who understand the concept of mind benders, but don't have any idea who's one, or if the goverment might have some working for them.

Again thats why I want it changed and future characters of mine won't be big users of the "way".  As I said, I don't think the way should be everyones own encrypted cell phone.

[spawnloser]

But I find it extremely cheesy that I've got my partner in crime waying me plans because he knows OOCly that no body could be possiably listening in.

How do you know that noone's listening in?

[Wykydtronn]

Logic and probability.

The chance that some one has the ability to listen in on the conversation is already at slim odds.

Then the chance that said person would even stumble upon the conversation.

Then there is the chance that they wouldn't even care or want to bother.

See where I am going?

OOC knowledge tells me that very few select people have the ability.  OOC knowledge tells me there is no vnpc mind benders scanning the masses.  And even if there is(technically)... Who's going to stop me? The VNPC power rangers? Unless some immortal would happen to stumble upon the conversation, but they're over taxed and stretched to thin already.  Unless some one is willing to take on the monumental task of "mind patrol".  I don't see the way being a dangerous way to communicate.
If your want to be a devious sneaky character, then you should also have to deal with the dangers of being such.  Due to how the way works, you may only ever see your allies/partners once.  Hell you can keep your hands fucking clean if your creative enough.  It be like you never had a part in it, if things happen to go south

I rather characters be forced to meet, be forced to cohort and plan in person.  Maybe the noble has to run the risk of having the paper trail lead back to them.  Even if you send an aide, they know who employs that aide.  But as it stands right now, a Noble could be running the 'rinth, and no one would by the wiser due to safety of "the way".  I want to see scandals, power structures tumble, I want to see powerful merchants forced to deal with some the dirtiest con-men in person.  I want the high figures of society hiring go betweens or going there in person.  Maybe for once, instead of that figure in the hood cloak isn't an assassin wanna be... maybe its a lord or lady who rather not be seen dealing with such lowly folk but is forced too.  Basically there should be some risk to making such plans.

Alas I'm getting to far off topic (which I apologize for).  I'm just going to go ahead and make a post in the role playing forum about the almost non-existent fear of using the way too communicate. http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=190307#190307

[Tamarin]

Honestly...nothing would be stopping spies from creating a symbological code written on paper and passing notes around.  From there, it's only a hop skip and a jump to full blown literacy, people.  If you can't see this...then....damn.  Just think about it, will you?  Please?  I will honestly be your friend.

That's right, nothing!

Except templars.

SCARY TEMPLARS

Aaaaahhh....cummon!  I've gotta believe that if the way was suddenly affected hugely, that some templar...somewhere...would see the logic in letting the people learn how to read in at least a limited capacity.  Literacy would have it's advantages and disadvantages to a city state, just like mass use of the way does.  I don't believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that either city state has the resources to monitor all of its population's Way-activity.  So then...why would the templars not have banned use of the Way?  To me it's kinda the same reason that reading and writing is banned: because it's not easily controlled.  So all you have to do is control other aspects of peoples' lives so literacy becomes a non-issue.  Don't you seeeee?  This is basic basic basic anthropology and sociology!

Zalanthas is a dry, dry place, and its people have a thirst!  A thirst for KNOWLEDGE!

[jhunter]

OOC knowledge tells me that very few select people have the ability. OOC knowledge tells me there is no vnpc mind benders scanning the masses. And even if there is(technically)... Who's going to stop me? The VNPC power rangers? Unless some immortal would happen to stumble upon the conversation, but they're over taxed and stretched to thin already. Unless some one is willing to take on the monumental task of "mind patrol". I don't see the way being a dangerous way to communicate.

This is your mistake. You shouldn't be using OOC knowledge to make your pc's decisions. ICly, for all your pc knows there could be a 'bender listening in at any given moment.

[Wykydtronn]

*not to mention its quite twinkish for character to be waying around secrets because you the player knows the chance of a mind bender listening is a billion to 1.

[rant]This is not twinkish.  This is roleplay.  Not all PCs are good at the Way, but some PCs practice it often because there is a need for it in their roles.

[/rant]

this is your mistake. You shouldn't be using OOC knowledge to make your pc's decisions. ICly, for all your pc knows there could be a 'bender listening in at any given moment.

But see thats the thing, I do play the paranoid bastard and I have a problem with players who don't.  Thats who I'm tallking about.  They use the OOC knowledge about "the way".  Knowing that the chances of a mind bender listening in is slim to none.

[jhunter]

And then when one fucks with them, and I'm sure at some point it will happen. They'll end up paying for it I'm sure.

[LauraMars]

The main reason I don't like the way is not because of the relative safety it offers (regardless of mindbenders) but the complete lack of anonymity it affords you.

So like, you just can't sleep with a guy and get him to add you to the rent on his apartment then make off with all his stuff in the night and pack it on your kank and ride to the next city to sit on the big pile of stuff you just stole and laugh without the guy getting all up in your head like, "Wtf j00 n00b I thought we were in 4 life!!11 My heart's broke man u suck bitch," forever and he keeps bothering you and he has a higher wisdom stat so he keeps breaking your mental barrier because barrier sucks ass anyway and finally you just have to go kill him and take all his stuff again.

That's why the way is dumb.

[jhunter]

LOL! That's a perfectly IC consequence to your actions. Are you saying that IC consequences for your actions are dumb?


*Snickers at LauraMars and her wish for "Way Call ID".*

[LauraMars]

LOL! That's a perfectly IC consequence to your actions. Are you saying that IC consequences for your actions are dumb?

NO!  But I do think it's dumb that you can't ride off and never be heard from again.  Even if you give a fake name, they can still find your mind easy.  It's just so less cool than if they hired people to track you down or did it themselves.

[jmordetsky]

LOL! That's a perfectly IC consequence to your actions. Are you saying that IC consequences for your actions are dumb?

NO!  But I do think it's dumb that you can't ride off and never be heard from again.  Even if you give a fake name, they can still find your mind easy.  It's just so less cool than if they hired people to track you down or did it themselves.

Seconded.

[jhunter]

LOL! That's a perfectly IC consequence to your actions. Are you saying that IC consequences for your actions are dumb?

NO!  But I do think it's dumb that you can't ride off and never be heard from again.  Even if you give a fake name, they can still find your mind easy.  It's just so less cool than if they hired people to track you down or did it themselves.

Seconded.

So, you guys hate the way because it makes it -harder- for you to easily fuck people over and disappear into nothingness?

That's specifically the reason I like it. It makes it harder for people just to randomly screw people over and think that there will never be any consequences to it. It makes people take the time to consider their actions more carefully and makes people be more -creative- in how they go about such things.

And barrier doesn't suck. You people just gotta use it more. I've screwed people over and kept them from ever reaching me again and that's -with- The Way in place.

Also, just because you can reach someone with The Way it doesn't mean that you can catch them. I've sent people after others, the way doesn't kill them for you unless you're 'bender. It doesn't capture them for you, unless perhaps you are a 'bender. Even with The Way you still have to use other means to capture/kill them. Usually that involves you doing it yourself or sending others after them.

[jmordetsky]

LOL! That's a perfectly IC consequence to your actions. Are you saying that IC consequences for your actions are dumb?

NO!  But I do think it's dumb that you can't ride off and never be heard from again.  Even if you give a fake name, they can still find your mind easy.  It's just so less cool than if they hired people to track you down or did it themselves.

Seconded.

So, you guys hate the way because it makes it -harder- for you to easily fuck people over and disappear into nothingness?

Yes. This is just yet another reason of many.

That's specifically the reason I like it.

*shrug* Different strokes.

[Kalden]

But see thats the thing, I do play the paranoid bastard and I have a problem with players who don't. Thats who I'm tallking about. They use the OOC knowledge about "the way". Knowing that the chances of a mind bender listening in is slim to none.

No. In the reality of the world the chances are very low. In the reality of the game the chances are very high. In a population of 100 PCs there's likely 1 or 2 or even 5 mindbenders. In the reality of the world there's likely 1 mindbender per 10,000 people, or even a higher ratio.

Characters shouldn't worry much about mindbenders.

And barrier doesn't suck. You people just gotta use it more. I've screwed people over and kept them from ever reaching me again and that's -with- The Way in place.

No, barrier SUCKS. It will continue to suck until barried's peoples' sdescs are no longer available over the Way.

When trying to contact someone who has a barrier up, one should get the message that they are unavailable, as if they were offline. Instead you contact them and find you can't send them a message. That's pretty f***** weak. I don't really care about the messages. I just don't want people to know that I'm still alive and ONLINE.

If barrier were beefed up, I'd be happy.

PLEASE REPLY jhunter

[jhunter]

But see thats the thing, I do play the paranoid bastard and I have a problem with players who don't. Thats who I'm tallking about. They use the OOC knowledge about "the way". Knowing that the chances of a mind bender listening in is slim to none.

No. In the reality of the world the chances are very low. In the reality of the game the chances are very high. In a population of 100 PCs there's likely 1 or 2 or even 5 mindbenders. In the reality of the world there's likely 1 mindbender per 10,000 people, or even a higher ratio.

Characters shouldn't worry much about mindbenders.

And barrier doesn't suck. You people just gotta use it more. I've screwed people over and kept them from ever reaching me again and that's -with- The Way in place.

No, barrier SUCKS. It will continue to suck until barried's peoples' sdescs are no longer available over the Way.

When trying to contact someone who has a barrier up, one should get the message that they are unavailable, as if they were offline. Instead you contact them and find you can't send them a message. That's pretty f***** weak. I don't really care about the messages. I just don't want people to know that I'm still alive and ONLINE.

If barrier were beefed up, I'd be happy.

PLEASE REPLY jhunter

Actually I agree with you on one point. I think a successful barrier -should- give them the same message as if they were unable to reach you at all.

But, some people were saying that barrier sucks and that you can't block people from reaching you. It does work to block people, but just like any other skill you have to use it enough to get good at it. In that aspect, it doesn't suck. It does what it's -currently- supposed to do if you're good enough at it.

[Kalden]

Actually I agree with you on one point. I think a successful barrier -should- give them the same message as if they were unable to reach you at all.

Great. Who else wants that change?

Think of the added opportunities:

1) Hides your sdesc when you're cloaked and raiding.
2) Adds the ability to fake your death.
3) Cloaks your online status to your enemies, who may use it to OOCly know when to hunt you and when not to.
4) Gives a better IC reason for why people are uncontactable all the time - they're busy, not accepting messages (perhaps having sex or sleeping).

It'd be a very, very beneficial change. People might actually start to use barrier, and many of the problems associated with the Way would dissapear.

IT WOULD BE A SIMPLE BUT VERY POWERFUL ADJUSTMENT

[Morgenes]

How would you know that the code doesn't already do this?  You could be assuming that the player is offline when really they have a barrier up and are better at it than you.

Barrier by no means sucks, it is one of the most powerful skills in the game.

[mansa]

How would you know that the code doesn't already do this?  You could be assuming that the player is offline when really they have a barrier up and are better at it than you.

Barrier by no means sucks, it is one of the most powerful skills in the game.

Oh Snap.  You got told by Morgenes.

I'd like to add one small bit.

Magickers exist, and they are scary and can kill you in one spell.
Mindbenders exist, and can kill you with their mind.
Templars exist, and can kill you with their spells and soldiers.
The Highlord and the Suk-King rule two city-states, and can kill you inside there.
The Dragon exists, and can kill you from across the multiverses.

A lot of things can kill you.

I would say the average commoner knows all of this, and tries everything they can to avoid those people.  This doesn't mean they stop drinking water because of a Vivaduan may get angry, and it doesn't mean that they stop lighting torches because a Drovian -may- be around the corner, and this doesn't mean they stop using the Way because a Psionicists may be listening.  It just means that they are careful with what they do.

[Kalden]

All I know is that I've contacted people only to be rejected by their barrier. I saw their sdesc, I got a contact, but I couldn't message them. That's a pretty weak barrier. Basically useful only against mindbenders and nothing else.

Maybe skill level makes a difference. I'll start working on my barrier now.

[LoD]

I don't mind the Way, but I also have no point of comparison.

The Way vs. Face-to-Face Interaction

One of the main objections people seem to have is that there are less physical meetings because of the ease of communicating volumes of text between characters.  The arguement seems to be that changing the Way will encourage people to discuss their secrets more frequently in person, requiring them to travel, interact and give other players a better opportunity to catch a tidbit of proprietary info.

I'm more inclined to believe it would result in a lot of meetings in apartments, estates and back rooms where the chance of being overheard is likely as slim as when communicating via the Way.  This would pull players away from common areas and probably force a lazier attitude amidst the PC leaders.  Some people propose it would promote plots, but it may end up working against them.  Ease of communication has probably included many more people in plots than it's excluded.

The problem seems to be that some people feel the Way is somehow broken or overpowered, when it's been a part of the gameworld for over a decade.  For all its failings, the Way provides a great deal of benefits and depth to the game.  Because you CAN contact someone at a distance and effectively communicate, tools are made available for espionage, coordination, reports, inter clan communication, traps, threats, bluffs...

Consider the tribal elf that wants to see if his fellows are about and arrange a meeting with them.  Should he need to find them in person somewhere in the few hundred square room area they claim as theirs?

What about the noble, who may be forced ICly to remain within their estate or tavern?  Without the Way, this could be a near mind numbing experience after you exploited the last of your options for planned and random discussion.

The Way vs. Literacy

Tamarin begs that if the Way was lessened, literacy should be elevated to make up for the lack of functionality as if the two are interchangeable, but they aren't.  Literacy provides not just a method of communication, but a recording of ideas, histories and opinions.  Literacy is one of the portals through which innovation, discovery and education must normally pass in order to succeed.  It's one of the reasons why the Sorcerer-Kings would keep such a thing under tight wraps and in the hands of those loyal to him.  The Way does not offer any ability to revisit past ideas.  No methods for gleaning information from someone else's conversations or thoughts.  It cannot be mass produced and distributed to the masses nor can a single thought be used to inspire or motivate a people to action.

I do believe there are some tweaks that could be made to The Way to make it less powerful a tool, but my opinion on what should be changed has little to do with the frequency or volume of information that can pass between characters.

-LoD

[Morgenes]

BTW, it is possible to put up a barrier after you receive notice someone contact you.  Basically the equivelant of picking up the phone and shoving it under a pillow.