Question about Sorcerer-kings and Commoners

[Hymwen]

I wasn't sure if I should post this here or in "Ask the Players". But anyway, I get the impression that the Sorcerer-kings (Tek and Muk) can see everything that goes on in their city states, and also in the minds of the citizens. Does this mean that if a citizen thinks evil bad thoughts about them, their respective Sorcerer-king will see it and get pissed? Or do they have better things to do/don't care/don't notice?

[X-D]

Yes....No...maybe...definitly.

Um, You don't know.

Really, thats the only answer I can think of.

Commoners would probly think so, and even think that the templars have plenty of time to come get anybody who even thought of sneezing in a direction that would displease the god king.

Stories would be told to children to keep them in line.

And many of these things, true or not, would be believed.

And even if not true, the templars are not going to ever tell anybody that. The more fear and unknown the better.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I really doubt that many commoners think their God-King sees everything they do or hears your every thought. If he did, why would he need informants and Templars and why would the guy who killed your brother last week still be on the loose and why...

As far as do they think he can see everything they do and hear their every thought, absofuckinglutely. God-Kings can do anything at all. God-Kings' displeasure is to be absolutely avoided at all cost, and you must absolutely worship them in some manner, whether going to the Temple or the Statue, or just saying a little dodad of a prayer in the morning and at night.

Most citizens are much more likely to believe that as long as they avoid the prying eyes and ears of their peers, and the wrath of the Templars, they can go unnoticed among the washed masses. I think that this is something that thieves and killers should consider too ... if you almost got caught, or were caught and jailed for a while, you won't be doing anything but groveling in your mind and heart and praying that the Highlord has forgiven you and taken his eye and mind elsewhere.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think that the idea that Muk and Tek can read their citizens' minds is a common one.  That doesn't mean they can't, though.   :wink:

Anyway, I do think the idea that a templar can smell your lies or see them with his holy sight might be something some people believe.


On a minor caveat, I've wondered if it's really appropriate for people to pray to their God-king when they want something.  Seems like the idea that your deity will do good things for those who are good and faithful is something that bleeds into the game from modern religions.  Tek and Muk don't seem like the type of nice, helpful gods to whom people should attribute good things that happen in their lives.

[Rindan]

I imagine most commoners believe that their God King can read their minds, and I would be completely unsurprised to find out that they are right.  The bigger question is why would a God King want to waste his time reading a commoners mind?  In that regards, I imagine most commoners believe that their God King probably isn't in their head and it isn't one of their top concerns.  

That said, when confront with an agent of a God King (a Templar), I imagine most commoners would feel a distinct unease that their thoughts and emotions are being read.  That isn't to say that a commoner can't lie to a Templar, especially a low ranking one, but I bet anyone speaking such lies is deep down inside terrified that the Templar is looking right through them and reading their every treasonous act.

When dealing with a God King or his agents, I imagine most commoners believe that the God King and his agents can do just about damn near anything, it is just purely a question if they want to or not.

[Folker]

I'm kind of curious about that, can a person then actually fully control his own thoughts? If a thief thinks that the Highlord/templars can hear his thoughts and begin thinking how remorseful he is, wouldnt he BECOME remorseful? I mean, thoughts arent words, thoughts in most cases are the 'real' motives and opinions of the character. If you absolutely loathe the god-king, you cant 'truly' start thinking how wonderful he is to avoid punishment. You might try, but as a simplest surface thought with a guaranteed self aversion rising in your head immediately upon the god pleasing thought.

Ofcourse zalanthas population is more skilled with their minds, hence The Way, but I would think that such 'deceptive' surface thoughts could only be performed while under a barrier, or perhaps the barrier itself IS a set of those deceptive layer of thoughts.

[Galdun]

Personally, I tend to think this is more of a character motivated question.  One really couldn't determine the answer from a universal stand point, rather you'd have to dictate through your character's own curiosities and past experiences.  

Have you ever thought something heretical?  Were you punished for it?
Did you ever think of how badly you hated that pompous noble?  Did something bad happen(ostensibly as a result of that thought)?  To put it simply, I think that whether or not your character is even concerned with the God Kings being able to read minds would be due to up-bringing, environment and past experiences.  I really doubt that all citizens wander around in constant fear of their thoughts being read otherwise it would really be impossible to commit crimes.

Those who have perhaps obliviously commit a crime, or those who were forced to do so to protect themselves or to survive and were never punished accordingly probably have their doubts as to whether they are constantly under surveilance.  Its all relative to your character's experiences.  In conclusion...you get to decide.  Its all up to you.  Unless of course your OOC knowledge of the gameworld far exceeds mine

[Rindan]

Others might disagree, but I think that lying in thinks is absolutely wrong unless you are a mind bender.  If a Templar (or anyone for that matter) is questioning you and you lie, the next thing you type should be "think I'm lying".  It doesn't have to be fancy think with all your motivation and what not, especially if the situtation is moving fast.  I do think that you should assume OOCly that the person you are taking to is a mind bender and that if you are blatently lying, they should know if they are reading your head.  Even if the person you are talking to isn't a mind bender (and they probably are not), an imm watching or a third party might want to know what is happening too.  

Unless you are a mind bender, there is no 'shielding' your thoughts, in my opinion.  If your character is terrified that the Templar is reading your thoughts, which is a perfectly rational fear for most commoners, I think you are pretty much SOL.  I know I have been before Templars, lied to them, and thought about how I was lying and how utterly fucked I am if that Templar is reading thoughts or emotions.   I have also had characters crack and start answering every single question a Templar asks truthfully because they are terrified that the Templar can see right through their lies.

Moral of the story?  Don't lie in your thinks.  It confuses imms and gives you mind bender like powers to decieve.  If your thoughts fuck you... well, they fuck you.  I wouldn't worry to much.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Rindan gets a cookie.

Right on.

[Maybe42or54]

Typically I would agree with Rindin. It just depends on how far they can get into your head. If they can only get to where you are thinking the words that -you- hear in your head, (which I think they do), then it is perfectly acceptable to tell yourself a lie in yourhead, just in case.


If they do get to your subconcious, then you can't really control that, now can you, which is why we don't have a subconcious think command IG. We just have a normal ol' think command, which I accept it to be the words in my head as I type this post.

[Delirium]

I think that's a bit of a cop-out.

If you're lying, at least give some hint that you are doing just that.

If they should be able to catch you out, give them that opportunity.

Otherwise, it's just not fair play.

[Maybe42or54]

You should feel that you are lieing or something, but actually using the "part between these to lie is perfectly acceptable in my book." I do agree though, giving hints that you are lieing is fun.

[Rindan]

Typically I would agree with Rindin. It just depends on how far they can get into your head. If they can only get to where you are thinking the words that -you- hear in your head, (which I think they do), then it is perfectly acceptable to tell yourself a lie in yourhead, just in case.

If they do get to your subconcious, then you can't really control that, now can you, which is why we don't have a subconcious think command IG. We just have a normal ol' think command, which I accept it to be the words in my head as I type this post.

Lying in thinks is cheap at best, twinkish at worst.  Assuming that you have the ability foil a mind bender is a pretty damn big (and probably wrong) assumption.  You not only give yourself the magikal power to out do a mind bender, but you also confuse the shit out of any imm watching you.  I am not be the RP police so you can do whatever you want, but I personally would never assume that my stupid mercenary or elven pick pocket has the magikal ability to thwart a mind bender.

[Angela Christine]

Rather than trying to lie in your head, just use Barrier.  The whole point of barrier is to keep other people out of your head.

Funny story.  Back when I was a kid (say 7-20) I was occasionally concerned that some people might be able to tell what I was thinking.  It wasn't that I believed there were telepaths out there, I just wasn't absolutely certain that there weren't any either.  So if I was at school or in public and thought something I didn't want anyone else to know I would try to spot a red object, then fill my conciousness with nothing but the redness.  (It wasn't until years later that I realized any telepaths around would be more concerned with concealing their abilities than spreading my secrets, and that if they did spread my lame secrets people would be far more horrified about the mind reading.)  

If I would do it with a mere suspicion that there might be telepaths,  I think it would be perfectly reasonable for a person who absolutely knows that there are telepaths out there who could be listening to try to generate some kind of mental noise.  It could be concentrating on something simple (like a colour), or playing a song in your head, mentally reciting an epic poem or your entire lineage.  Something to keep the secret information out of the front of your mind.


Angela Christine

[Cenghiz]

Once, I played a character as a guard so close to important people in a scene. I didn't want my weird and dirty thoughts read.. so all I did was standing like a statue and typing;

>think One... two... three... four...
bla bla bla
bla bla bla
>emote stands still like a statue looking forward.
>think fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen...
bla bla bla
bla bla bla
>think thirty three, thirtyfour, thirtyfive....

Still, I don't know if it worked. Typing simply 'barrier' would be more logical, now I see.

[bloodfromstone]

I think the idea of lying in one's thoughts is poor play. It destroys the reasoning behind having characters that can read minds. Yes, you're probably fucked if you lie to a mindbender and then think "Damn, I hope he believes that pile of kankshit.", but that's the whole idea.

[Vesperas]

I think the idea of lying in one's thoughts is poor play. It destroys the reasoning behind having characters that can read minds. Yes, you're probably fucked if you lie to a mindbender and then think "Damn, I hope he believes that pile of kankshit.", but that's the whole idea.

I agree.

Besides, have you actually tried to lie in your thoughts?  You have to atleast make a slight conscious effort to think, "I'm going to lie to myself."  Then, if you do it often enough, sure, it becomes second nature.. but you believe it, too!  And you're reactions become indicative of this new belief.

[Maybe42or54]

Personally, none of my characters have ever thought a mindbender was a true story. Just something told around the campfire to keep you from thinking bad things. Much like how the Boogey man used to be for me before they changed it into a crappy movie.

When I use the command think, that is the front of my mind thinking, I am controlling those words, I can lie to myself in my head, so why can't my Pc? I have never thought "I'm going to lie. That pen is blue." When in fact the pen was red. So if telling a lie in your thoughts is twinkish, I am a real life twink then. If I feel the need to lie to myself in my head, it is so I think that and my visible signs of the act are minimalised.

Part of being a mindbender is the power to read the mental signs of a lie. That mindbender, if there is such a thing, will hear what I choose for them to hear. If I am concerned that noone can read my thoughts, I will lie my ass off in says and laugh in my head about it. Every time, hands down. If I am concerned someone can read my thoughts, fuck the truth, I am going to lie my ass off in my thinks as well as my says.

I wont go into the powers behind mindbending. So I'm going to lie if I feel like a need to.

[Larrath]

Personally, none of my characters have ever thought a mindbender was a true story.

The existence of mindbenders is commonly known.  A character would have to be extremely sheltered, naive or stupid (or perhaps paranoid) to believe they don't exist.

When I use the command think, that is the front of my mind thinking, I am controlling those words, I can lie to myself in my head, so why can't my Pc?

Are you able to intentionally think that the red pen is blue and actually believe it?  Because if you can't, a person reading your thoughts should be able to notice it's a different thinking pattern and it is your responsibility to represent your character appropriately.

I have never thought "I'm going to lie. That pen is blue." When in fact the pen was red.

Then why did you think that the obviously red pen was blue?

Part of being a mindbender is the power to read the mental signs of a lie. That mindbender, if there is such a thing, will hear what I choose for them to hear. If I am concerned that noone can read my thoughts, I will lie my ass off in says and laugh in my head about it. Every time, hands down. If I am concerned someone can read my thoughts, fuck the truth, I am going to lie my ass off in my thinks as well as my says.

Using your thoughts to make people hear what you want them to hear is called "using the Way".  The reason why mindbenders are so feared and dangerous is because they can hear what you DON'T want them to hear you think.

To sum it up, Maybe, this approach sounds extremely twinkish and unsporting to me and I hope that you and anyone else who believes in this approach will change their minds about it.

Mindbenders are a max-karma guild for a reason.  Using thinks in a completely deceptive way when you're not, say, a templar or a specially trained sorcerer is similar to people emoting skills and abilities they don't have.  This is the sort of approach that would legitimize warriors using fake casting emotes to scare people away.

Bad, bad, bad.

[jhunter]

Gotta agree with Larrath on this one.

[Maybe42or54]

Commonly known. Yea. Atleast the rumors are commonly known to exist. I bet that very few commoners in Zalanthas have ever seen a mindbender that actually confessed to being a mindbender. The bulk of the population, I would bet, have only heard people's cousin's brother's mother's aunt's grandpa seeing them face to face and living to tell the story.

If this person is a mindbender and not digging into my individual thoughts and actually "bending" them, then they arent very good. I am not going to max out their Pc hacking skills for them by pretending they are masters at what they do. If they are masters, they will bend me to their will. Not the other way around. That makes no sense to me.

[flurry]

Lying in thinks is cheap at best, twinkish at worst.

I have to agree with that.  Definitely sounds like code abuse to me.

[Maybe42or54]

I'd agree with that also, but they aren't mind readers. They are MIND BENDERS. No, on second thought, I would still lie in my thoughts.

It is true however, that I probably think "I should lie" in my subconcious thought department. And giving no hint whatsoever is bad. The lie thoughts aren't.

[spawnloser]

MIND benders (note the proper emphasis) are masters of all arts mental...what makes you think they can't read as well as bend, number man?

And no, you won't think, "I'm going to lie," in your subconscious and then actually lie in your thoughts.  To lie is a conscious decision.  The only way you could think something that is not true consciously is when you do not consciously know it to be untrue.

If you want your thinks to not give away your lie, use Barrier.  That's what it's for.

[Maybe42or54]

The bend it. Alright. So they had better bend it and not just read it then, huh? If they are mind reader's, they aren't getting anything from me if my pc is concerned about that sort of thing. If they are mind benders, then they can bend my mind to get what they want out of it, no questions asked.