Question about Sorcerer-kings and Commoners

[spawnloser]

Problem is, if they can read what your character is truly thinking, lying in your thinks about what your character is thinking is twinky.  You're deliberately witholding information in an OOC manner and providing information that your character could NOT honestly think to him/herself.

Sure, they may be able to make you think something...but that isn't reading your thoughts as they are naturally.

Personally, I do hope that you change your way of thinking about this or NEVER come across a mindbender PC to ruin that person's roleplaying experience with another character.

Editted to add: Yes, and you also missed my point...they are called mindbenders...doesn't mean that's the guild name or what any of their skills are called.  They are psionicists, masters of all arts mental.  You are putting too much and inaccurate emphasis on the term 'mindbender,' as in focusing on this term and emphasizing the wrong part of it.

[Maybe42or54]

I don't think you know of the sheer power they can control. I have run across three or four in my playing experience, and I do believe all four got what they wanted out of me, even though I lied from time to time. I do, however, think you are making it way too easy for them by giving them everything on a silver platter of easiness. And hence the term "boring" comes to mind, since there is no challenge in your Pc. Then again, these sorcerors couldn't have hated me too much, since they continued to pester and manipulate me on several occasions. Even got me killed a few times. I guess we will have to agree to disagree then. If you never lie in your thoughts IRL, you are a saint. I lie all the damn time to myself IRL. I never do think "I think I will lie right now." I just do it.

[spawnloser]

No, I'm no saint.  When I'm going to lie, I'm thinking about it and anyone that could read my mind would know I was going to lie out loud.

You see, the thing is, I don't practice self-deception.  Your character's thoughts are his inner monologue...his talking to himself, in a way.  You lie to yourself?

[Larrath]

Not all thoughts are the same.  Some thoughts are a simple inner monoluge - if you wanted to think "I have seen the purple storm flicker over the hilltops", that's that.  It's not really a THOUGHT but rather inner speech, because even if you think this sentence, it has no real content - there are no purple storms, hilltops went extinct last year and you sure as hell didn't see a storm over a hilltop.

On the other hand, if you were thinking about how you almost tripped the other day, that thought has experiences and memories that are related to it, as well as connecting thoughts - why you almost tripped, how you stopped it, whether it was good or bad that you fell, et cetera.

I'd also like to further stress Spawnloser's point - 'mindbender' is a name that has no meaning whatsoever.  You can probably make the claim that it makes no sense about the Noble Houses as well - how can a person be a Noble Lord when they have no territory of their own?  An Estate doesn't count.

Mindbenders are a maximum karma Guild precisely because many things that are utterly impossible for others are very easy for them to do.  Utterly refusing to help them do their part because, uh, "every person can easily lie in their own head and it's totally organic and nobody would be able to tell even though that person himself wouldn't believe that thought" is one of the lamest and shameless excuses for twinking I have ever encountered.


Finally, about mindbenders only existing as 'commonly known rumors'.  The entire humanoid population of Zalanthas, everyone, is able to use the Way.  The entire humanoid population of Zalanthas is painfully aware that magick exists, no matter how much they hate it.  Most of the population of Zalanthas knows to blame the Dragon for the destruction of their world which, according to legend, was breathtakingly lush and fertile.


Now, let me give you an example - IRL, online identity theft.  You hear about it all the time on the news [gossip] and many people work on their defenses, being careful with websites and getting rid of information [learning how to use Barrier], even though not that many people know they have been targetted unless they see something very unusual [as with mindbenders - sometimes the victims can feel something, but most likely not always], and nobody in his right mind will ever confess to being an identity thief because they will be jailed [executed].
Do you believe in identity theft?

[jhunter]

Mindbenders are a maximum karma Guild precisely because many things that are utterly impossible for others are very easy for them to do. Utterly refusing to help them do their part because, uh, "every person can easily lie in their own head and it's totally organic and nobody would be able to tell even though that person himself wouldn't believe that thought" is one of the lamest and shameless excuses for twinking I have ever encountered.

BINGO!

[bloodfromstone]

I, personally, think the trouble with lying in your think commands is that some of the things a master of the Way would and could do just is not something you can code. They should be able to delve into your subconscious and see scenes from your life, chase tendrils of thought back to their very core, etc, etc, all of the things that make psionicists what they are. You simply can't have it happen codedly.
I feel that, while I can lie in words in my mind, my mind also knows its a lie. I don't think that is enough to fool a mind reader, unless I am capable of convincing myself that the lie is true.

That's my take on it, at least.

[Naiona]

The most simple way to know if you are doing something that is not good play is to consider whether you are doing it to "win" or to live your character's life.

If you are taking an action that you would not otherwise take because you OOCly suspect someone is a psionicist, the play is not good.  If your character is insane and commonly thinks things that are unrealistic or untrue, that is fine - but as an IMM I would expect to see the same pattern of odd thinking all the time, not just in front of a psionicist PC.

There is no official policy on how to roleplay. However, when you act in a manner dictated by OOC knowledge (or OOC rumor and suspicion - which is what more often leads to so-called "facts" about secretive guilds) - you are cheating yourself of the best experience available as well as the other players involved - and likely confusing the staff who might be watching, as well.   Armageddon is not about winning or OOCly tricking other players.  It is about roleplaying out a PC's life - and sometimes allowing yourself to lose because you are ICly beaten - even if you know an OOC way to get out of it - is the best possible way to play (or end) a character's life.

[spawnloser]

Something that bloodfromstone said got me to realize that possibly I wasn't explaining something well enough earlier, and just to make sure, I'm going to explain quickly.

Okay, there's a red pen.

You can run the words, "That pen is blue," through your mind, but that isn't really what you think...you KNOW that that pen is red...in the back of your mind, you're thinking, "That pen is red."  I'm saying that a psionicist should know that what you really think and what you're just putting up as a front (mind you, NOT knowing that your thoughts are being read) differ.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Spawnloser is right. You can't really lie to yourself on the spot. Given time, you can, in the sense that you kind of forget that you're lying, but if you just now made it up, there's no way. Why? Because you do think, "I'm gonna lie now."

[EvilRoeSlade]

If this person is a mindbender and not digging into my individual thoughts and actually "bending" them, then they arent very good. I am not going to max out their Pc hacking skills for them by pretending they are masters at what they do. If they are masters, they will bend me to their will. Not the other way around. That makes no sense to me.

And I guess staff members who are depending on your characters thoughts to figure out what the hell is really going on should be held to the same impossible standard?

All things considered, your arguements are ridiculous.

[Maybe42or54]

Making everything easy on a max karma guild just because they are a max karma guild, doesn't sound right either. I would call that ridiculous. Since I can't go into the abilities of a mind bender to explain my "ridiculous" arguement, I am not going to argue your "ridiculous" arguement. The imms have powers way beyond any mindbender's abilities, they are called Email or they can send me a message IG. If they have been watching me, I will make sense, if they just tuned in, well then, yea, they may not understand. Just like a book. If you start reading in the middle, you may not get the full understanding you could get by reading the whole book.

On to another point, I havn't been saying not to RP out that you are in fact la dirty lie telling bastard. I'm saying that I don't have to tell myself that "Oh I should lie since I think a mindbender is in my head." Unless my Pc is that type of person. My Pc might very well tell themselves what to do, or they may not.

I for one am a person that loves giving some hints in the way I do things in word, thought, and action. If I am suspecting someone of being a mindbender, I am way past the point where I get paranoid and start telling lies. If I think someone is fucking with my mind, I will be telling myself lies just so I sound more convincing with the words I tell people.

My points
Telling a lie in your head is completely possible.
Mindbenders can fuck with your subconcious thoughts.
Making it easy on them isn't any fun for them, or you.

[jhunter]

Telling a lie in your head is completely possible.
Mindbenders can fuck with your subconcious thoughts.

The general consensus is that telling a lie in your head is impossible (because in your head you know that you are lying) and that mindbenders -can- fuck with your subconscious thoughts.

The general consensus is that lying with thinks -is- twinkish.

The only purpose of lying in your thinks is to confuse any mindbender who might happen to be tuning in with false information. Which isn't logical because in order to lie you have to make the conscious decision to do so. (Which they would logically be able to read if they are reading your thoughts.)

It's abusive because you -are- abusing the fact that you know codedly they can't see through your lying to yourself anyway. You are focusing on the limitation of the code and using a loophole in it to protect yourself. The only reason someone would be doing this is because OOCly they are trying to "win the game".

I doesn't appear that anyone is going to get through to you on this. And that's fine. If I was staff and caught you doing this, you'd get one warning for it and then if I caught you doing it again I'd give you the karmic bitchslap.

[Maybe42or54]

Who doesn't play to win the game?  :roll: I'll go on being a twink and Rping out my inner thoughts and telling tells out of school then. Since mindbenders can fuck with your subconcious, they had better do it, or fuck off and go "twink" somewhere else.

[Maybe42or54]

And as a side note, I believe the subconcious thought is handled by the think emotes. My pcs can't lie in those, unless they are a mindbender. In the actual "speech" of my thoughts, I can lie all I want and then some. If you say that is twink, then you must be mentally cripled if you can't do that.

[Jakahri]

Comments are interspersed.

Telling a lie in your head is completely possible.

Incorrect. Your subconscious thoughts can likely be read "like a book". The code does not properly take into effect if the character being mindraped is in fact telling the truth or not. Therefore, it is your duty as the player to be truthful in your thoughts. If you are not, then you are being inherently twinkish and definitely powergaming so that your character's true motives are not discovered by someone who realistically has the power to discover them.

Mindbenders can fuck with your subconcious thoughts.

Correct.

Making it easy on them isn't any fun for them, or you.

I sincerely hope this was a joke. You are citing out of character examples in order to properly justify your blatant misuse of the think command, as well oocly subverting the power of a max karma class.

I'll go on being a twink and Rping out my inner thoughts and telling tells out of school then.

At least you are publicly admitting that you are a twink and saving me the trouble from finding out in the game. Now I can do my best to avoid your characters. Sorry, but I'm not subjecting myself to the potential abuse of someone who openly admits they cheat on a MUD. That's pathetic.

Since mindbenders can fuck with your subconcious, they had better do it, or fuck off and go "twink" somewhere else.

Are you suggesting that mindbenders are inherently twinkish? I can only assume that is your intent.

Again, you are incorrect.

[bloodfromstone]

Let's try to stop throwing things like "twink" and "cheater" around, por favor. But let's try not to let a legitimate discussion devolve into flames. It's tough, I know, but I have confidence we can do it with the power of friendship.

[Naiona]

Please don't indulge in personal insults on this board.  Discuss, argue and even disagree, but this is not the place to attack each other.

If this thread continues to degenerate we will have to lock it.

[Halaster]

And as a side note, I believe the subconcious thought is handled by the think emotes. My pcs can't lie in those, unless they are a mindbender. In the actual "speech" of my thoughts, I can lie all I want and then some. If you say that is twink, then you must be mentally cripled if you can't do that.

I mostly agree with this idea (the main part I don't agree with is "unless they are a mindbender" - even they can't always hide some things).

I believe that you can indeed lie in your "speech" part of your thoughts, such as think I love Tektolnes!.  However, if you are lying, you really should accompany that with some sort of "think emote" that you're lying.  Such as think *lying*.

Along these lines, I think you can "lie to yourself", such as being in denial.  A drug addict is a good example.  However, if roleplaying this sort of "lie", then you should also accompany it with a "think emote" or something that explains it.  For example:
think They're crazy, this spice isn't bad for me, it's good for me!
feel uncovinced on a subconscious level.

The point is that you are telling the story of your character's life, and you should phrase in such a way that an Out-of-Character 3rd party can understand it.  It's not unheard of for me to have things in my character's background that he doesn't know.  Such as "Bob was raised by a pack of gortok until the age of 3, when he was rescued by Keebler elves".  Bob wouldn't necessarily remember the gortok part.

[Maybe42or54]

Now, back to topic Jak. Excellent miss to the topic at hand.

Spawnloser has a great point.

You can run the words, "That pen is blue," through your mind, but that isn't really what you think...you KNOW that that pen is red...in the back of your mind, you're thinking, "That pen is red." I'm saying that a psionicist should know that what you really think and what you're just putting up as a front (mind you, NOT knowing that your thoughts are being read) differ.

That is what the think emote is for, in my opinion. You "feeling" is the "general consensus" of your subconscious thought leaking through.

The inner monologue is the actual "saying between these" in your thinks. These mindbenders can take the feelings of your subconscious and your actual monologue and decide to read more into them and "bend" your thoughts to further delve into that subconscious thought. In my "twink" world, I call that RP. Since diving into a subconscious mind, just makes me think of you diving into the ocean. There is just way too much information in there to handle, which is why I personally use only 10% of my brain. While some of you seem to use it all in your infinite wisdom.

On the other hand, yes I know mindbenders can't read you like an open book, but they may have (Bear with me and don't freak out and go on a rampage) LIMITS. Oh my god. Scary thought. By giving them access to your entire library of thoughts through a psychological connection would completely over whelm them in my opinion. There would be way too much mind spam.

[jhunter]

It's not up to you to decide what -their- limits are. All I was saying is that there would be some -definite- indicator to accompany those thoughts that would show you were lying.

I believe that you can indeed lie in your "speech" part of your thoughts, such as think I love Tektolnes!. However, if you are lying, you really should accompany that with some sort of "think emote" that you're lying. Such as think *lying*.

Along these lines, I think you can "lie to yourself", such as being in denial. A drug addict is a good example. However, if roleplaying this sort of "lie", then you should also accompany it with a "think emote" or something that explains it. For example:
think They're crazy, this spice isn't bad for me, it's good for me!
feel uncovinced on a subconscious level.

Exactly, someone listening in on your thoughts would be able to determine if you were lying or not. It's up to you as the player if you are going to do this to "play fair" on an OOC level and display this.

[Maybe42or54]

And it isn't your place to automatically decide they are all powerful either.
That is why you RP their limit, they show you their limit, you raise their limit to fit, and you RP on like that. A perfect system of a growable, RPing event.

[jhunter]

I think I'll just take the advice of others and avoid interacting with your pcs. Apparently noone is getting through to you. At this point I'm just going to end up getting myself into trouble and -you- aren't worth it.

[picklehead]

Typically I would agree with Rindin. It just depends on how far they can get into your head. If they can only get to where you are thinking the words that -you- hear in your head, (which I think they do), then it is perfectly acceptable to tell yourself a lie in yourhead, just in case.

If they do get to your subconcious, then you can't really control that, now can you, which is why we don't have a subconcious think command IG. We just have a normal ol' think command, which I accept it to be the words in my head as I type this post.

That's some sweet reasoning. I'm going to start sparing 24/7. My stamina doesn't go down, so I don't figure I'm getting tired in the least. Maybe if there was a command IG to check how sore my muscles were I'd know that my limbs probably feel like jello, but since there's not, I'll just keep right on trucking!

Just get mauled horribly by a vicious beast? No problem, grab a quick nap! You'll be ready to charge right back out there in 5-10 minutes! Hey, don't try judging me. It's not your place to decide whether or not I can take such a massive beating. Afterall, there's nothing IG to tell me that I should probably take a few weeks off to let my wounds fully heal. It's better for me just to assume I can regenerate fully in a matter of minutes. Besides, I figure the time I wasn't logged in was plenty for that arm I lost to regrow itself.

I hope I've made my point?

[Maybe42or54]

No, you did not really make sense. Try reading the whole thread, yea?

[spawnloser]

The point being made by picklehead is that just because the code doesn't support subconscious thoughts doesn't mean you shouldn't represent them.

I will maintain, though, that if you want to beat a psionicist...use barrier.  Seriously, you don't know who the psionicist is.  If you're paranoid about a psionicist raiding your thoughts, use the common defense rather than have the character lie to him/herself.