Question about Sorcerer-kings and Commoners

[Hymwen]

I wasn't sure if I should post this here or in "Ask the Players". But anyway, I get the impression that the Sorcerer-kings (Tek and Muk) can see everything that goes on in their city states, and also in the minds of the citizens. Does this mean that if a citizen thinks evil bad thoughts about them, their respective Sorcerer-king will see it and get pissed? Or do they have better things to do/don't care/don't notice?

[X-D]

Yes....No...maybe...definitly.

Um, You don't know.

Really, thats the only answer I can think of.

Commoners would probly think so, and even think that the templars have plenty of time to come get anybody who even thought of sneezing in a direction that would displease the god king.

Stories would be told to children to keep them in line.

And many of these things, true or not, would be believed.

And even if not true, the templars are not going to ever tell anybody that. The more fear and unknown the better.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I really doubt that many commoners think their God-King sees everything they do or hears your every thought. If he did, why would he need informants and Templars and why would the guy who killed your brother last week still be on the loose and why...

As far as do they think he can see everything they do and hear their every thought, absofuckinglutely. God-Kings can do anything at all. God-Kings' displeasure is to be absolutely avoided at all cost, and you must absolutely worship them in some manner, whether going to the Temple or the Statue, or just saying a little dodad of a prayer in the morning and at night.

Most citizens are much more likely to believe that as long as they avoid the prying eyes and ears of their peers, and the wrath of the Templars, they can go unnoticed among the washed masses. I think that this is something that thieves and killers should consider too ... if you almost got caught, or were caught and jailed for a while, you won't be doing anything but groveling in your mind and heart and praying that the Highlord has forgiven you and taken his eye and mind elsewhere.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think that the idea that Muk and Tek can read their citizens' minds is a common one.  That doesn't mean they can't, though.   :wink:

Anyway, I do think the idea that a templar can smell your lies or see them with his holy sight might be something some people believe.


On a minor caveat, I've wondered if it's really appropriate for people to pray to their God-king when they want something.  Seems like the idea that your deity will do good things for those who are good and faithful is something that bleeds into the game from modern religions.  Tek and Muk don't seem like the type of nice, helpful gods to whom people should attribute good things that happen in their lives.

[Rindan]

I imagine most commoners believe that their God King can read their minds, and I would be completely unsurprised to find out that they are right.  The bigger question is why would a God King want to waste his time reading a commoners mind?  In that regards, I imagine most commoners believe that their God King probably isn't in their head and it isn't one of their top concerns.  

That said, when confront with an agent of a God King (a Templar), I imagine most commoners would feel a distinct unease that their thoughts and emotions are being read.  That isn't to say that a commoner can't lie to a Templar, especially a low ranking one, but I bet anyone speaking such lies is deep down inside terrified that the Templar is looking right through them and reading their every treasonous act.

When dealing with a God King or his agents, I imagine most commoners believe that the God King and his agents can do just about damn near anything, it is just purely a question if they want to or not.

[Folker]

I'm kind of curious about that, can a person then actually fully control his own thoughts? If a thief thinks that the Highlord/templars can hear his thoughts and begin thinking how remorseful he is, wouldnt he BECOME remorseful? I mean, thoughts arent words, thoughts in most cases are the 'real' motives and opinions of the character. If you absolutely loathe the god-king, you cant 'truly' start thinking how wonderful he is to avoid punishment. You might try, but as a simplest surface thought with a guaranteed self aversion rising in your head immediately upon the god pleasing thought.

Ofcourse zalanthas population is more skilled with their minds, hence The Way, but I would think that such 'deceptive' surface thoughts could only be performed while under a barrier, or perhaps the barrier itself IS a set of those deceptive layer of thoughts.

[Galdun]

Personally, I tend to think this is more of a character motivated question.  One really couldn't determine the answer from a universal stand point, rather you'd have to dictate through your character's own curiosities and past experiences.  

Have you ever thought something heretical?  Were you punished for it?
Did you ever think of how badly you hated that pompous noble?  Did something bad happen(ostensibly as a result of that thought)?  To put it simply, I think that whether or not your character is even concerned with the God Kings being able to read minds would be due to up-bringing, environment and past experiences.  I really doubt that all citizens wander around in constant fear of their thoughts being read otherwise it would really be impossible to commit crimes.

Those who have perhaps obliviously commit a crime, or those who were forced to do so to protect themselves or to survive and were never punished accordingly probably have their doubts as to whether they are constantly under surveilance.  Its all relative to your character's experiences.  In conclusion...you get to decide.  Its all up to you.  Unless of course your OOC knowledge of the gameworld far exceeds mine

[Rindan]

Others might disagree, but I think that lying in thinks is absolutely wrong unless you are a mind bender.  If a Templar (or anyone for that matter) is questioning you and you lie, the next thing you type should be "think I'm lying".  It doesn't have to be fancy think with all your motivation and what not, especially if the situtation is moving fast.  I do think that you should assume OOCly that the person you are taking to is a mind bender and that if you are blatently lying, they should know if they are reading your head.  Even if the person you are talking to isn't a mind bender (and they probably are not), an imm watching or a third party might want to know what is happening too.  

Unless you are a mind bender, there is no 'shielding' your thoughts, in my opinion.  If your character is terrified that the Templar is reading your thoughts, which is a perfectly rational fear for most commoners, I think you are pretty much SOL.  I know I have been before Templars, lied to them, and thought about how I was lying and how utterly fucked I am if that Templar is reading thoughts or emotions.   I have also had characters crack and start answering every single question a Templar asks truthfully because they are terrified that the Templar can see right through their lies.

Moral of the story?  Don't lie in your thinks.  It confuses imms and gives you mind bender like powers to decieve.  If your thoughts fuck you... well, they fuck you.  I wouldn't worry to much.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Rindan gets a cookie.

Right on.

[Maybe42or54]

Typically I would agree with Rindin. It just depends on how far they can get into your head. If they can only get to where you are thinking the words that -you- hear in your head, (which I think they do), then it is perfectly acceptable to tell yourself a lie in yourhead, just in case.


If they do get to your subconcious, then you can't really control that, now can you, which is why we don't have a subconcious think command IG. We just have a normal ol' think command, which I accept it to be the words in my head as I type this post.

[Delirium]

I think that's a bit of a cop-out.

If you're lying, at least give some hint that you are doing just that.

If they should be able to catch you out, give them that opportunity.

Otherwise, it's just not fair play.

[Maybe42or54]

You should feel that you are lieing or something, but actually using the "part between these to lie is perfectly acceptable in my book." I do agree though, giving hints that you are lieing is fun.

[Rindan]

Typically I would agree with Rindin. It just depends on how far they can get into your head. If they can only get to where you are thinking the words that -you- hear in your head, (which I think they do), then it is perfectly acceptable to tell yourself a lie in yourhead, just in case.

If they do get to your subconcious, then you can't really control that, now can you, which is why we don't have a subconcious think command IG. We just have a normal ol' think command, which I accept it to be the words in my head as I type this post.

Lying in thinks is cheap at best, twinkish at worst.  Assuming that you have the ability foil a mind bender is a pretty damn big (and probably wrong) assumption.  You not only give yourself the magikal power to out do a mind bender, but you also confuse the shit out of any imm watching you.  I am not be the RP police so you can do whatever you want, but I personally would never assume that my stupid mercenary or elven pick pocket has the magikal ability to thwart a mind bender.

[Angela Christine]

Rather than trying to lie in your head, just use Barrier.  The whole point of barrier is to keep other people out of your head.

Funny story.  Back when I was a kid (say 7-20) I was occasionally concerned that some people might be able to tell what I was thinking.  It wasn't that I believed there were telepaths out there, I just wasn't absolutely certain that there weren't any either.  So if I was at school or in public and thought something I didn't want anyone else to know I would try to spot a red object, then fill my conciousness with nothing but the redness.  (It wasn't until years later that I realized any telepaths around would be more concerned with concealing their abilities than spreading my secrets, and that if they did spread my lame secrets people would be far more horrified about the mind reading.)  

If I would do it with a mere suspicion that there might be telepaths,  I think it would be perfectly reasonable for a person who absolutely knows that there are telepaths out there who could be listening to try to generate some kind of mental noise.  It could be concentrating on something simple (like a colour), or playing a song in your head, mentally reciting an epic poem or your entire lineage.  Something to keep the secret information out of the front of your mind.


Angela Christine

[Cenghiz]

Once, I played a character as a guard so close to important people in a scene. I didn't want my weird and dirty thoughts read.. so all I did was standing like a statue and typing;

>think One... two... three... four...
bla bla bla
bla bla bla
>emote stands still like a statue looking forward.
>think fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen...
bla bla bla
bla bla bla
>think thirty three, thirtyfour, thirtyfive....

Still, I don't know if it worked. Typing simply 'barrier' would be more logical, now I see.

[bloodfromstone]

I think the idea of lying in one's thoughts is poor play. It destroys the reasoning behind having characters that can read minds. Yes, you're probably fucked if you lie to a mindbender and then think "Damn, I hope he believes that pile of kankshit.", but that's the whole idea.

[Vesperas]

I think the idea of lying in one's thoughts is poor play. It destroys the reasoning behind having characters that can read minds. Yes, you're probably fucked if you lie to a mindbender and then think "Damn, I hope he believes that pile of kankshit.", but that's the whole idea.

I agree.

Besides, have you actually tried to lie in your thoughts?  You have to atleast make a slight conscious effort to think, "I'm going to lie to myself."  Then, if you do it often enough, sure, it becomes second nature.. but you believe it, too!  And you're reactions become indicative of this new belief.

[Maybe42or54]

Personally, none of my characters have ever thought a mindbender was a true story. Just something told around the campfire to keep you from thinking bad things. Much like how the Boogey man used to be for me before they changed it into a crappy movie.

When I use the command think, that is the front of my mind thinking, I am controlling those words, I can lie to myself in my head, so why can't my Pc? I have never thought "I'm going to lie. That pen is blue." When in fact the pen was red. So if telling a lie in your thoughts is twinkish, I am a real life twink then. If I feel the need to lie to myself in my head, it is so I think that and my visible signs of the act are minimalised.

Part of being a mindbender is the power to read the mental signs of a lie. That mindbender, if there is such a thing, will hear what I choose for them to hear. If I am concerned that noone can read my thoughts, I will lie my ass off in says and laugh in my head about it. Every time, hands down. If I am concerned someone can read my thoughts, fuck the truth, I am going to lie my ass off in my thinks as well as my says.

I wont go into the powers behind mindbending. So I'm going to lie if I feel like a need to.

[Larrath]

Personally, none of my characters have ever thought a mindbender was a true story.

The existence of mindbenders is commonly known.  A character would have to be extremely sheltered, naive or stupid (or perhaps paranoid) to believe they don't exist.

When I use the command think, that is the front of my mind thinking, I am controlling those words, I can lie to myself in my head, so why can't my Pc?

Are you able to intentionally think that the red pen is blue and actually believe it?  Because if you can't, a person reading your thoughts should be able to notice it's a different thinking pattern and it is your responsibility to represent your character appropriately.

I have never thought "I'm going to lie. That pen is blue." When in fact the pen was red.

Then why did you think that the obviously red pen was blue?

Part of being a mindbender is the power to read the mental signs of a lie. That mindbender, if there is such a thing, will hear what I choose for them to hear. If I am concerned that noone can read my thoughts, I will lie my ass off in says and laugh in my head about it. Every time, hands down. If I am concerned someone can read my thoughts, fuck the truth, I am going to lie my ass off in my thinks as well as my says.

Using your thoughts to make people hear what you want them to hear is called "using the Way".  The reason why mindbenders are so feared and dangerous is because they can hear what you DON'T want them to hear you think.

To sum it up, Maybe, this approach sounds extremely twinkish and unsporting to me and I hope that you and anyone else who believes in this approach will change their minds about it.

Mindbenders are a max-karma guild for a reason.  Using thinks in a completely deceptive way when you're not, say, a templar or a specially trained sorcerer is similar to people emoting skills and abilities they don't have.  This is the sort of approach that would legitimize warriors using fake casting emotes to scare people away.

Bad, bad, bad.

[jhunter]

Gotta agree with Larrath on this one.

[Maybe42or54]

Commonly known. Yea. Atleast the rumors are commonly known to exist. I bet that very few commoners in Zalanthas have ever seen a mindbender that actually confessed to being a mindbender. The bulk of the population, I would bet, have only heard people's cousin's brother's mother's aunt's grandpa seeing them face to face and living to tell the story.

If this person is a mindbender and not digging into my individual thoughts and actually "bending" them, then they arent very good. I am not going to max out their Pc hacking skills for them by pretending they are masters at what they do. If they are masters, they will bend me to their will. Not the other way around. That makes no sense to me.

[flurry]

Lying in thinks is cheap at best, twinkish at worst.

I have to agree with that.  Definitely sounds like code abuse to me.

[Maybe42or54]

I'd agree with that also, but they aren't mind readers. They are MIND BENDERS. No, on second thought, I would still lie in my thoughts.

It is true however, that I probably think "I should lie" in my subconcious thought department. And giving no hint whatsoever is bad. The lie thoughts aren't.

[spawnloser]

MIND benders (note the proper emphasis) are masters of all arts mental...what makes you think they can't read as well as bend, number man?

And no, you won't think, "I'm going to lie," in your subconscious and then actually lie in your thoughts.  To lie is a conscious decision.  The only way you could think something that is not true consciously is when you do not consciously know it to be untrue.

If you want your thinks to not give away your lie, use Barrier.  That's what it's for.

[Maybe42or54]

The bend it. Alright. So they had better bend it and not just read it then, huh? If they are mind reader's, they aren't getting anything from me if my pc is concerned about that sort of thing. If they are mind benders, then they can bend my mind to get what they want out of it, no questions asked.

[spawnloser]

Problem is, if they can read what your character is truly thinking, lying in your thinks about what your character is thinking is twinky.  You're deliberately witholding information in an OOC manner and providing information that your character could NOT honestly think to him/herself.

Sure, they may be able to make you think something...but that isn't reading your thoughts as they are naturally.

Personally, I do hope that you change your way of thinking about this or NEVER come across a mindbender PC to ruin that person's roleplaying experience with another character.

Editted to add: Yes, and you also missed my point...they are called mindbenders...doesn't mean that's the guild name or what any of their skills are called.  They are psionicists, masters of all arts mental.  You are putting too much and inaccurate emphasis on the term 'mindbender,' as in focusing on this term and emphasizing the wrong part of it.

[Maybe42or54]

I don't think you know of the sheer power they can control. I have run across three or four in my playing experience, and I do believe all four got what they wanted out of me, even though I lied from time to time. I do, however, think you are making it way too easy for them by giving them everything on a silver platter of easiness. And hence the term "boring" comes to mind, since there is no challenge in your Pc. Then again, these sorcerors couldn't have hated me too much, since they continued to pester and manipulate me on several occasions. Even got me killed a few times. I guess we will have to agree to disagree then. If you never lie in your thoughts IRL, you are a saint. I lie all the damn time to myself IRL. I never do think "I think I will lie right now." I just do it.

[spawnloser]

No, I'm no saint.  When I'm going to lie, I'm thinking about it and anyone that could read my mind would know I was going to lie out loud.

You see, the thing is, I don't practice self-deception.  Your character's thoughts are his inner monologue...his talking to himself, in a way.  You lie to yourself?

[Larrath]

Not all thoughts are the same.  Some thoughts are a simple inner monoluge - if you wanted to think "I have seen the purple storm flicker over the hilltops", that's that.  It's not really a THOUGHT but rather inner speech, because even if you think this sentence, it has no real content - there are no purple storms, hilltops went extinct last year and you sure as hell didn't see a storm over a hilltop.

On the other hand, if you were thinking about how you almost tripped the other day, that thought has experiences and memories that are related to it, as well as connecting thoughts - why you almost tripped, how you stopped it, whether it was good or bad that you fell, et cetera.

I'd also like to further stress Spawnloser's point - 'mindbender' is a name that has no meaning whatsoever.  You can probably make the claim that it makes no sense about the Noble Houses as well - how can a person be a Noble Lord when they have no territory of their own?  An Estate doesn't count.

Mindbenders are a maximum karma Guild precisely because many things that are utterly impossible for others are very easy for them to do.  Utterly refusing to help them do their part because, uh, "every person can easily lie in their own head and it's totally organic and nobody would be able to tell even though that person himself wouldn't believe that thought" is one of the lamest and shameless excuses for twinking I have ever encountered.


Finally, about mindbenders only existing as 'commonly known rumors'.  The entire humanoid population of Zalanthas, everyone, is able to use the Way.  The entire humanoid population of Zalanthas is painfully aware that magick exists, no matter how much they hate it.  Most of the population of Zalanthas knows to blame the Dragon for the destruction of their world which, according to legend, was breathtakingly lush and fertile.


Now, let me give you an example - IRL, online identity theft.  You hear about it all the time on the news [gossip] and many people work on their defenses, being careful with websites and getting rid of information [learning how to use Barrier], even though not that many people know they have been targetted unless they see something very unusual [as with mindbenders - sometimes the victims can feel something, but most likely not always], and nobody in his right mind will ever confess to being an identity thief because they will be jailed [executed].
Do you believe in identity theft?

[jhunter]

Mindbenders are a maximum karma Guild precisely because many things that are utterly impossible for others are very easy for them to do. Utterly refusing to help them do their part because, uh, "every person can easily lie in their own head and it's totally organic and nobody would be able to tell even though that person himself wouldn't believe that thought" is one of the lamest and shameless excuses for twinking I have ever encountered.

BINGO!

[bloodfromstone]

I, personally, think the trouble with lying in your think commands is that some of the things a master of the Way would and could do just is not something you can code. They should be able to delve into your subconscious and see scenes from your life, chase tendrils of thought back to their very core, etc, etc, all of the things that make psionicists what they are. You simply can't have it happen codedly.
I feel that, while I can lie in words in my mind, my mind also knows its a lie. I don't think that is enough to fool a mind reader, unless I am capable of convincing myself that the lie is true.

That's my take on it, at least.

[Naiona]

The most simple way to know if you are doing something that is not good play is to consider whether you are doing it to "win" or to live your character's life.

If you are taking an action that you would not otherwise take because you OOCly suspect someone is a psionicist, the play is not good.  If your character is insane and commonly thinks things that are unrealistic or untrue, that is fine - but as an IMM I would expect to see the same pattern of odd thinking all the time, not just in front of a psionicist PC.

There is no official policy on how to roleplay. However, when you act in a manner dictated by OOC knowledge (or OOC rumor and suspicion - which is what more often leads to so-called "facts" about secretive guilds) - you are cheating yourself of the best experience available as well as the other players involved - and likely confusing the staff who might be watching, as well.   Armageddon is not about winning or OOCly tricking other players.  It is about roleplaying out a PC's life - and sometimes allowing yourself to lose because you are ICly beaten - even if you know an OOC way to get out of it - is the best possible way to play (or end) a character's life.

[spawnloser]

Something that bloodfromstone said got me to realize that possibly I wasn't explaining something well enough earlier, and just to make sure, I'm going to explain quickly.

Okay, there's a red pen.

You can run the words, "That pen is blue," through your mind, but that isn't really what you think...you KNOW that that pen is red...in the back of your mind, you're thinking, "That pen is red."  I'm saying that a psionicist should know that what you really think and what you're just putting up as a front (mind you, NOT knowing that your thoughts are being read) differ.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Spawnloser is right. You can't really lie to yourself on the spot. Given time, you can, in the sense that you kind of forget that you're lying, but if you just now made it up, there's no way. Why? Because you do think, "I'm gonna lie now."

[EvilRoeSlade]

If this person is a mindbender and not digging into my individual thoughts and actually "bending" them, then they arent very good. I am not going to max out their Pc hacking skills for them by pretending they are masters at what they do. If they are masters, they will bend me to their will. Not the other way around. That makes no sense to me.

And I guess staff members who are depending on your characters thoughts to figure out what the hell is really going on should be held to the same impossible standard?

All things considered, your arguements are ridiculous.

[Maybe42or54]

Making everything easy on a max karma guild just because they are a max karma guild, doesn't sound right either. I would call that ridiculous. Since I can't go into the abilities of a mind bender to explain my "ridiculous" arguement, I am not going to argue your "ridiculous" arguement. The imms have powers way beyond any mindbender's abilities, they are called Email or they can send me a message IG. If they have been watching me, I will make sense, if they just tuned in, well then, yea, they may not understand. Just like a book. If you start reading in the middle, you may not get the full understanding you could get by reading the whole book.

On to another point, I havn't been saying not to RP out that you are in fact la dirty lie telling bastard. I'm saying that I don't have to tell myself that "Oh I should lie since I think a mindbender is in my head." Unless my Pc is that type of person. My Pc might very well tell themselves what to do, or they may not.

I for one am a person that loves giving some hints in the way I do things in word, thought, and action. If I am suspecting someone of being a mindbender, I am way past the point where I get paranoid and start telling lies. If I think someone is fucking with my mind, I will be telling myself lies just so I sound more convincing with the words I tell people.

My points
Telling a lie in your head is completely possible.
Mindbenders can fuck with your subconcious thoughts.
Making it easy on them isn't any fun for them, or you.

[jhunter]

Telling a lie in your head is completely possible.
Mindbenders can fuck with your subconcious thoughts.

The general consensus is that telling a lie in your head is impossible (because in your head you know that you are lying) and that mindbenders -can- fuck with your subconscious thoughts.

The general consensus is that lying with thinks -is- twinkish.

The only purpose of lying in your thinks is to confuse any mindbender who might happen to be tuning in with false information. Which isn't logical because in order to lie you have to make the conscious decision to do so. (Which they would logically be able to read if they are reading your thoughts.)

It's abusive because you -are- abusing the fact that you know codedly they can't see through your lying to yourself anyway. You are focusing on the limitation of the code and using a loophole in it to protect yourself. The only reason someone would be doing this is because OOCly they are trying to "win the game".

I doesn't appear that anyone is going to get through to you on this. And that's fine. If I was staff and caught you doing this, you'd get one warning for it and then if I caught you doing it again I'd give you the karmic bitchslap.

[Maybe42or54]

Who doesn't play to win the game?  :roll: I'll go on being a twink and Rping out my inner thoughts and telling tells out of school then. Since mindbenders can fuck with your subconcious, they had better do it, or fuck off and go "twink" somewhere else.

[Maybe42or54]

And as a side note, I believe the subconcious thought is handled by the think emotes. My pcs can't lie in those, unless they are a mindbender. In the actual "speech" of my thoughts, I can lie all I want and then some. If you say that is twink, then you must be mentally cripled if you can't do that.

[Jakahri]

Comments are interspersed.

Telling a lie in your head is completely possible.

Incorrect. Your subconscious thoughts can likely be read "like a book". The code does not properly take into effect if the character being mindraped is in fact telling the truth or not. Therefore, it is your duty as the player to be truthful in your thoughts. If you are not, then you are being inherently twinkish and definitely powergaming so that your character's true motives are not discovered by someone who realistically has the power to discover them.

Mindbenders can fuck with your subconcious thoughts.

Correct.

Making it easy on them isn't any fun for them, or you.

I sincerely hope this was a joke. You are citing out of character examples in order to properly justify your blatant misuse of the think command, as well oocly subverting the power of a max karma class.

I'll go on being a twink and Rping out my inner thoughts and telling tells out of school then.

At least you are publicly admitting that you are a twink and saving me the trouble from finding out in the game. Now I can do my best to avoid your characters. Sorry, but I'm not subjecting myself to the potential abuse of someone who openly admits they cheat on a MUD. That's pathetic.

Since mindbenders can fuck with your subconcious, they had better do it, or fuck off and go "twink" somewhere else.

Are you suggesting that mindbenders are inherently twinkish? I can only assume that is your intent.

Again, you are incorrect.

[bloodfromstone]

Let's try to stop throwing things like "twink" and "cheater" around, por favor. But let's try not to let a legitimate discussion devolve into flames. It's tough, I know, but I have confidence we can do it with the power of friendship.

[Naiona]

Please don't indulge in personal insults on this board.  Discuss, argue and even disagree, but this is not the place to attack each other.

If this thread continues to degenerate we will have to lock it.

[Halaster]

And as a side note, I believe the subconcious thought is handled by the think emotes. My pcs can't lie in those, unless they are a mindbender. In the actual "speech" of my thoughts, I can lie all I want and then some. If you say that is twink, then you must be mentally cripled if you can't do that.

I mostly agree with this idea (the main part I don't agree with is "unless they are a mindbender" - even they can't always hide some things).

I believe that you can indeed lie in your "speech" part of your thoughts, such as think I love Tektolnes!.  However, if you are lying, you really should accompany that with some sort of "think emote" that you're lying.  Such as think *lying*.

Along these lines, I think you can "lie to yourself", such as being in denial.  A drug addict is a good example.  However, if roleplaying this sort of "lie", then you should also accompany it with a "think emote" or something that explains it.  For example:
think They're crazy, this spice isn't bad for me, it's good for me!
feel uncovinced on a subconscious level.

The point is that you are telling the story of your character's life, and you should phrase in such a way that an Out-of-Character 3rd party can understand it.  It's not unheard of for me to have things in my character's background that he doesn't know.  Such as "Bob was raised by a pack of gortok until the age of 3, when he was rescued by Keebler elves".  Bob wouldn't necessarily remember the gortok part.

[Maybe42or54]

Now, back to topic Jak. Excellent miss to the topic at hand.

Spawnloser has a great point.

You can run the words, "That pen is blue," through your mind, but that isn't really what you think...you KNOW that that pen is red...in the back of your mind, you're thinking, "That pen is red." I'm saying that a psionicist should know that what you really think and what you're just putting up as a front (mind you, NOT knowing that your thoughts are being read) differ.

That is what the think emote is for, in my opinion. You "feeling" is the "general consensus" of your subconscious thought leaking through.

The inner monologue is the actual "saying between these" in your thinks. These mindbenders can take the feelings of your subconscious and your actual monologue and decide to read more into them and "bend" your thoughts to further delve into that subconscious thought. In my "twink" world, I call that RP. Since diving into a subconscious mind, just makes me think of you diving into the ocean. There is just way too much information in there to handle, which is why I personally use only 10% of my brain. While some of you seem to use it all in your infinite wisdom.

On the other hand, yes I know mindbenders can't read you like an open book, but they may have (Bear with me and don't freak out and go on a rampage) LIMITS. Oh my god. Scary thought. By giving them access to your entire library of thoughts through a psychological connection would completely over whelm them in my opinion. There would be way too much mind spam.

[jhunter]

It's not up to you to decide what -their- limits are. All I was saying is that there would be some -definite- indicator to accompany those thoughts that would show you were lying.

I believe that you can indeed lie in your "speech" part of your thoughts, such as think I love Tektolnes!. However, if you are lying, you really should accompany that with some sort of "think emote" that you're lying. Such as think *lying*.

Along these lines, I think you can "lie to yourself", such as being in denial. A drug addict is a good example. However, if roleplaying this sort of "lie", then you should also accompany it with a "think emote" or something that explains it. For example:
think They're crazy, this spice isn't bad for me, it's good for me!
feel uncovinced on a subconscious level.

Exactly, someone listening in on your thoughts would be able to determine if you were lying or not. It's up to you as the player if you are going to do this to "play fair" on an OOC level and display this.

[Maybe42or54]

And it isn't your place to automatically decide they are all powerful either.
That is why you RP their limit, they show you their limit, you raise their limit to fit, and you RP on like that. A perfect system of a growable, RPing event.

[jhunter]

I think I'll just take the advice of others and avoid interacting with your pcs. Apparently noone is getting through to you. At this point I'm just going to end up getting myself into trouble and -you- aren't worth it.

[picklehead]

Typically I would agree with Rindin. It just depends on how far they can get into your head. If they can only get to where you are thinking the words that -you- hear in your head, (which I think they do), then it is perfectly acceptable to tell yourself a lie in yourhead, just in case.

If they do get to your subconcious, then you can't really control that, now can you, which is why we don't have a subconcious think command IG. We just have a normal ol' think command, which I accept it to be the words in my head as I type this post.

That's some sweet reasoning. I'm going to start sparing 24/7. My stamina doesn't go down, so I don't figure I'm getting tired in the least. Maybe if there was a command IG to check how sore my muscles were I'd know that my limbs probably feel like jello, but since there's not, I'll just keep right on trucking!

Just get mauled horribly by a vicious beast? No problem, grab a quick nap! You'll be ready to charge right back out there in 5-10 minutes! Hey, don't try judging me. It's not your place to decide whether or not I can take such a massive beating. Afterall, there's nothing IG to tell me that I should probably take a few weeks off to let my wounds fully heal. It's better for me just to assume I can regenerate fully in a matter of minutes. Besides, I figure the time I wasn't logged in was plenty for that arm I lost to regrow itself.

I hope I've made my point?

[Maybe42or54]

No, you did not really make sense. Try reading the whole thread, yea?

[spawnloser]

The point being made by picklehead is that just because the code doesn't support subconscious thoughts doesn't mean you shouldn't represent them.

I will maintain, though, that if you want to beat a psionicist...use barrier.  Seriously, you don't know who the psionicist is.  If you're paranoid about a psionicist raiding your thoughts, use the common defense rather than have the character lie to him/herself.

[Maybe42or54]

The code does, however, give you the oppurtunity to "feel" things in your mind as well as use an internal monologue. You can't control how you feel unless you are a mindbender, so how could you not use that to suggest what your subconcious is thinking?

[SpyGuy]

The code does, however, give you the oppurtunity to "feel" things in your mind as well as use an internal monologue. You can't control how you feel unless you are a mindbender, so how could you not use that to suggest what your subconcious is thinking?

Yes, I believe most of the points being made are to just suggest you somehow are lying if you use a false internal monologue.  Personally I thinking doing something like this is absolutely fine:

think (lying) I didn't rob that templar, why is she torturing me!

BUT if you give absolutely no indication of what your PC would actually be thinking or feeling then you're cheating yourself, psionicist PCs and staff out of the realism of the game world.  Psionicists have limits I'm sure, people OOCly misrepresenting their character's thought process shouldn't be one of them.

[Maybe42or54]

BUT if you give absolutely no indication of what your PC would actually be thinking or feeling then you're cheating yourself, psionicist PCs and staff out of the realism of the game world.  Psionicists have limits I'm sure, people OOCly misrepresenting their character's thought process shouldn't be one of them.

Completely agreed. This is about telling a story, not letting your Pc get pushed around OOcly so you can be apart of their story. That sounds like you are playing for everyone else to win, if you pretend they are all powerful without them even trying to prove it.

[Jakahri]

That sounds like you are playing for everyone else to win, if you pretend they are all powerful without them even trying to prove it.

You really have no idea what you speak of. I'll leave it at that.

[Larrath]

Two last thoughts about mindbenders and things that can be done against them without Barrier:
First of all, a mindbender (if he can truly see your thinks) doesn't get a full history of everything your character has done.  When most people come face to face with someone they know is a mindbender (ICly or OOCly) or feel a mindbender in their head, most often they don't go - "Oh shit, it's a mindbender!  He's going to find out how I killed Lord Shamos Fale and buried the longknife under the tree and how I lied to those templars to keep my sekret Nilazi powers secret so nobody gives me trouble when I bring the Dragon back!".
Most people will just go - "Oh shit, it's a mindbender!  He's going to learn about that murder or...shit what-do-I-do-what-do-I-do?  Maybe I'll do X, no, I'll do Y...".

Second, a character can try to force himself to simply think about something else.

You feel a strange pressure building up inside your head.  It feels phallic.

> think SHIT!  Alright, keep that murder hidden keep it hidden think about...that girl's tits.
> think Yeah, they're pretty nice tits--is he gone yet--yeah, I'd sure like to fry them with a pair of travel cakes...
> think FRY them?  Huh?  Where the fuck did -that- thought come from?

The italicized Think in the example is critical, and it's basically what makes an otherwise bad example good.  Most characters would also be pretty bad at -really- managing to think about something else.  One time I've had a character who thought he was being stalked by a mindbender, I think, and he tried to 'practice' distracting himself with a limited degree of success.  Someone reading his thoughts would know that, even if he's not thinking about something in particular right now, there's still something up.

You don't have to spell everything out to a mindbender, but you are expected to represent your character's total sum of thoughts and feelings using Think/Feel in a realistic and accurate manner.  What, don't you ever emote failing in bed or falling down or being sick or spilling wine?  Flat and flawless for-the-win characters that don't develop and never mess up is something I sorely hope I left behind when I joined Arm.
The victory is the experience you get from the character, not getting your character's pfile on Ginka to be '1011001010110101' instead of '0111011011100011'.

[wizturbo]

In my experiences, there's nothing more challenging in this game than interacting with a PC you know to be a mindbender.


One of my characters was in a close relationship with a character they knew to be a psionicist for more than 8 RL months, and it was by far the most challenging role I've played thus far.  Constantly using thinks just in case they were able to listen in, required me to be aware of exactly how my character felt or thought in each situation I was in.  It's very challenging, but it produced an absolutely incredible character, for myself, and certainly the staff and the players who interacted with them.


I could spend another paragraph explaining how it is twinkish to try and cheat your way out of conflicts or danger by lying with thinks/feels, but I'd rather highlight the great benefits of not doing so.  Even if you have the OOC feeling your shooting yourself in the foot by using a think or feel that might be dangerous in the wrong hands, you're not.  You're roleplaying at the highest level.  

You'll love yourself for it, all the players on the other end will love you for it (if only for the fact your roleplay will improve), and the staff will love you for it.  The staff being so deeply aware of your characters actions, and the motivations behind each one of them, is able to offer MUCH more for you than they would a normal character whose personality is hidden behind a veil of uncertainty.  For those of you interested in getting karma or being trusted to play sponsered roles, I can think of no better way to prove yourself.

It's not easy though.  I'll give you that.

[Maybe42or54]

You don't have to spell everything out to a mindbender, but you are expected to represent your character's total sum of thoughts and feelings using Think/Feel in a realistic and accurate manner.  What, don't you ever emote failing in bed or falling down or being sick or spilling wine?  Flat and flawless for-the-win characters that don't develop and never mess up is something I sorely hope I left behind when I joined Arm.
The victory is the experience you get from the character, not getting your character's pfile on Ginka to be '1011001010110101' instead of '0111011011100011'.

I never said DON'T RP OUT YOUR LIES. I said that you can lie in your internal monologue. Rp out the lie with your subconcious (the command I use for that is called "feel"), I use this to make a Pc that isn't a superficial pc. A pc that is cut and dry. Black and white. Not all truths have to be 100% truths. Not all lies have to be 100% lie.