Please don't emote around people while hidden or invisible.

[Unseeing Kank]

Just don't do it unless you actually intend for your character's presence to be revealed through sound, smell, or physical contact with objects or people in the room.  It's extremely jarring to many players.  You're forcing OOC knowledge on them about a potential threat to their characters.

Thank you.

[Larrath]

Au contraire.
I love hidden emotes and such, and I wish people would do them more.

I suppose it's a matter of personal taste, and possibly a problem with no solution.  I always get a warm fuzzy feeling when I see 'someone crouches behind a table' popping out of nowhere.

[sarahjc]

I actually don't mind this too much if it's done properly. I once was in a room with a hidden person that was emoting creeping up to the side of a couch to steal a half a bowl of soup or something. It was very entertaining.

If a person is emoting while they are hidden, it is then basically up to the room to notice them or not.  That person is just involving themselves more with the background.

Things that I have found annoying are when people abuse emoting while being hidden. Like doing things that would garner a lot of attention.

Example good would be:

Someone is stealing from you and they have succeeded then they emote something like this and then flee the scene:

Someone brushes by you with a slight tug at your cloak before despersing into the crowded room.

A bad example would be if someone started tossing mugs of ale and darts at people while hidden and sticking around. I was in a room once when someone did that. It was very annoying and extremely unrealistic. After a while, people are going to know you are the guy tossing mugs of ale around.

But saying that it's bad for all people to emote while hidden, and that they should expect to be caught at it, isn't really true and kind of stinks for all those sneaky people. To me anyway, it depends on what the scene is, and what the emote is.  It can differ from scenario to scenario.

[bloodfromstone]

I find tasteful hidden emotes to be very nice. The scene can be set from my scope as a player, rather than my character's scope. We already deal with tons of information that we should disregard ICly as it is.

You are sitting at the bar, engaging in drunken merriment.
The trim, busty woman arrives from the north.
The trim, busty woman brushes some sand from her face and sneezes, causing her chest to give a subtle bouce.

People sitting at the bar, facing away from the entrance, or just plain not paying hawk-eyed attention to the front door wouldn't notice this. But it's part of the scene and I'm glad people include little touches like that.

Hidden emotes also give people a way of properly reacting to a failed hide. Sure, you have no reason to react to 'Someone shuffles through the crowd, legs poking out of the bottom of a barrel.' But when you see 'The very, very tall figure in a dark, hooden cloak clings to the rafters, quietly watching the crowd below.' ...Well, you have something more to work with than just "That guy is kind of acting shifty and maybe in the shadows a little. Stop being shifty, guy!"

[Boggis]

A bad example would be if someone started tossing mugs of ale and darts at people while hidden and sticking around. I was in a room once when someone did that. It was very annoying and extremely unrealistic. After a while, people are going to know you are the guy tossing mugs of ale around.

But, but, but... how else are elves going to prove their superiority if they can't fling rotten petoch fruits from the shadows and snicker roguishly?

Seriously though, I prefer it when people don't go through emotes about what they are doing when hidden / invisible unless its something that the hidden person feels that my character or other characters could possibly notice e.g. accidentally knocking something over nearby, feet crunching over sand as they trail me down some alleyway, somebody passing by with a torch that briefly causes the hider's shadow to be painted across a nearby wall, etc. Other than that I'd just prefer to be in the dark about their presence and have the code tell me if I see them or not.

[Jakahri]

I love well done emotes from hidden characters.

[amoeba]

If it enhances the scene and makes sense in context, then by all means go for it.  

I like bloodfromstone's example quite a bit.  We see things in room echos all the time that we may or may not notice, why should we hold the hidden person to a different standard?  As I stated previously, as long as it makes sense in context.

That being said, if you are hidden then emote, then you transfer the desicion of if you are noticable away from the code and to the other PC's in the room.  If you emote what you think is something others shouldn't notice, and they react to it, tough titties. If you didn't want to be noticed, don't emote.

Also what works in the sands often doesn't translate to the indoors and vice versa.  In the sands, someone sighing in the distance could be quite noticable, in a noisy bar, perhaps not.  Deciede what message you want the emote to convey then go for it.  If you don't have a reason to emote and just want to show off your uber hidding skills, don't.

[marko]

The way I see it, anyone who does an emote while hidden is letting themselves out in the open and have done something that is noticeable.

Any emote in that manner is an invitation for others to react to it.

If you don't want to be noticed then don't emote like that.  Think can be used just fine to get your actions out.

I'd still prefer to see a hidden emote command that had a chance of breaking hide or being seen by those who have scan up.  Until then, if you emote while hidden or invisible then you are doing something that is noticeable.  If someone else in the room decides to react to it, that's their choice and not "bad roleplaying."

[Rindan]

As a general rule of thumb, don't hidden emote unless you want people to respond.  You put the victim of your emotes in an impossible situation at times.  

I recall one time I was getting ready to leave a location.  I was paranoid that someone was tailing me and was worried that they might be creeping up on my back.  Right as I got up to draw me weapons and get out, someone started hidden emoting sneaking up on me.  This is an irritating position to be in.  At this point you can either stop what you are doing and wait like a lamb, or you can carry on what you are doing and have the other guy think you are a twink.

Personally, I like being in the same place as my character.  Hidden emotes that I am not supposed to see ruin this.  Obviously, you can't be in the same place as your character all of the time.  Some times you know stuff that your character doesn't.  That said, I try and avoid such situations.  Part of the surprise and thrill of the game is being startled and excited along with your character.  I don't want to know that the assassin is there until his blade is already arching through the air.  I don't want to know that my precious dagger was stolen until I go to reach for it in a time of need.  I don't want to know that coins I got smuggling spice in were stolen until I go to hand them over to my contact.

The general rule of thumb I use for hidden emotes is to only emote things that I want people to react to.  If I am about to assassinate someone, throwing off an hidden emote describing my blade arching through the air a split second before my backstab hits home is great.  Having a Templar barge into the tavern and hidden emoting someone crying out because I shoved them out of the way to get to the door is also good.  Just stick to things that you want people to notice and respond to, and you avoid ruining surprise for others.

[Unseeing Kank]

Alright, I'll admit that some hidden emotes do have a place and can add a lot of flavor to a scene, but opportunities for such emote are rare and successful execution even more so.  More than nine situations out of ten, the hidden emotes I've seen have been innapropriate (in my opinion, of course).  I've even seen things to the point of "Someone glares menacingly at you from somewhere behind your back." and then nothing.  No backstab, no confrontation, no revealing or anything.  I knew OOCly that someone was hidden, pissed at my character, and possibly stalking him, and yet I had no reason to take IC action.  Very frustrating.

Anyway, I suppose this is all half-venting on my part, but still I think people should be reminded to choose their hidden emotes with extreme care.

On a side note, something I just thought of, hidden actions can be conveyed as part of other coded actions while hidden.  For example,

Code Select Expand

> whisper Bob (pointing at ~victim) Yes, he's the one.  On my signal, get him. and then

Code Select Expand

> look Bob with an affirmative nod and draws his blade.
That way, only your partner and anyone else who made a successful spot check will see it, or at least that's how I understand it to work.

[moab]

I've seen some down exceptionally well.

All of these were by one particular character.


In _every_ other case that I've personally witnessed they were either badly done (hey, it's hard to get a regular emote to look great) or used for abusive purposes.


I say, stay away from the firewater unless you can handle it.  

Look at it this way:
In every case, the lack of an emote from an invisible character won't break the game.  In many cases a bad invis emote will break the game.

Why do it unless you know what the heck you're doing.  Personally, I almost never emote while invis / hidden unless my character is doing something that would render him easy to target.  For example, conversing with others while invisible, it is fine for me to emote sighing, or walking around (and leaving footprints) but not fine for me to scowl or even "reach for a bowl of soup."  

Can you see someone "crouch behind a table" if they are invisible / hidden?  Of course not.  Scan will tell you if someone is there doing that.

Avoid this practice, that's my advice.

[amoeba]

Just stick to things that you want people to notice and respond to, and you avoid ruining surprise for others.

I'll agree with this comment. In the right circumstances they are importiant for setting the mood.  Most of my hidden experience is in the wilds, and when I do a hidden emote, it is because I want the person(s) to know there is someone there.  

Plus you have to admit, it's fun watching someone hidden for a number of moments and seeing them only do coded actions, crafting, foraging and stuff. Then you do a hidden emote about a twig breaking, and suddenly you see emotes out the ass.

[Conspiracy Theory]

To add to the mix of contrasting opinions, I like a well-done hidden emote.

Yes, it typically leaves an open door for the hidden character's actions to be noticed, but that's the idea, as long as the players involved are responsible enough to use good judgement with the situation.

[Bogre]

I like receiving and doing hidden emotes. But you have to do them with the knowledge that you are putting the chance of your discovery out there to the player behind the other character.

[EvilRoeSlade]

emotes to the effect of "emote floats around the tavern" are just bad, and most likely what the poster was referring to.  Just don't do them.

[Agent_137]

OH BOY! ANOTHER HIDDEN EMOTES THREAD:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14639&highlight=hidden+emote

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13558&highlight=hidden+emote

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10272&highlight=hidden+emote

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8119&highlight=hidden+emote

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8825&highlight=hidden+emote

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8050&highlight=hidden+emote

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6236&highlight=hidden+emote

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4110&highlight=hidden+emote

Fresh ideas are welcome! But I doubt we'll see any.

[jmordetsky]

The way I see it, anyone who does an emote while hidden is letting themselves out in the open and have done something that is noticeable.

Any emote in that manner is an invitation for others to react to it.

If you don't want to be noticed then don't emote like that.  Think can be used just fine to get your actions out.

I'd still prefer to see a hidden emote command that had a chance of breaking hide or being seen by those who have scan up.  Until then, if you emote while hidden or invisible then you are doing something that is noticeable.  If someone else in the room decides to react to it, that's their choice and not "bad roleplaying."

Yes. I F@CKING hate hidden emotes. I don't mind, if you do a hidden emote and then reveal yourself, but you get these turds that are dancing around taverns tossing items, smirking and giggling and just generally being an annoying little invisa-specter that has a twinked hide skill and is there fore completely invisible and can fuck my leg while remaining unseen to the naked human eye.

Ugh. I'm getting irritated just recalling the jackassery. (I'm a little passionate about this subject...if you hadn't noticed.)

On top of the completely out of line crap discussed above, even the subtle, light emotes that are preceded with a "someone" get on my nervers. The final fact of it for me is: I didn't want to OOCly know there is someone hidden in the room. And when you emote hidden, you forcibly SHOVE this knowledge down my throat like I was a B-List pornstar with a bad choice of director.

So, I mean:

A hidden emote *right* before you backstab my sorry ass, please do.

A hidden emote that you are passing my table in the tavern, please don't.

[X-D]

I used to hate hidden emotes.

But, I've since decided that most are not too bad. And well, it simply gets damm boring sometimes:)

Myself, I do now, -but- If I do, it is actually in a style where I'm -not- forcing somebody into an impossible situation, I actually am giving a bit away.

em the slight scraping sound of leather on stone can be heard as @ shifts in some nearby bushes.

Now, I think it is perfectly fine to react to that if you think your char would notice the sound.


Now, ones I DO still REALLY hate.

Em smiles slightly as he sneaks up behind ~victem.

Me, I'd probly OOC fuck off moron;flee self now days.

Or, if I'm in a good mood, simply walk off and wait for the invitable GDB thread.

[Bogre]

X-d has probably said it the best.

Hidden emotes to flavor the atmosphere, to give PC's hints in likely situations, to let a PC know that a thief tried or succeeded but didn't pull it off perfectly, to give someone a gasp right before the dagger lands...all very good.

[Armaddict]

I always liked doing emotes while hidden of where I'm watching.  Who.  Nothing about where I am, or anything of that nature, prompting immediate action by those who don't like hidden emotes...but just a sort of story telling idea of..."You're being watched."  Sometimes it can lead to people's skins crawling, but it doesn't force them into anything.

My opinion is that it's kind of a nice thing.  It gives the player something to think about.  The character has no idea they're being watched, most likely, but now the player gets to think, "Why are they watching me?  Am I involved in something I don't know about?  What's going to happen?  What's going -on-?"

I got it from a certain stealthy character ages back who used to do the same...and he did it to me...and it suddenly made my character -that- much more interesting to play.  If only so that -I-, the player, could figure out what was going on in those shadows, to see whether my character was affecting more than I ever thought.

Hidden power emotes suck.  Hidden intrigue inspiration is awesome.

[jmordetsky]

em the slight scraping sound of leather on stone can be heard as @ shifts in some nearby bushes.

I'm actually cool with this kind of usage if *here it is*. You are not in a tavern  (and to be fair, most of my fiery anger with hidden emotes stems from tavern usage)

I don't love it...But....it's definitely one of the better examples. I still as a player would rather that you didn't give that to me at all, but rather let the code decide if I could see/hear/notice you.

[spawnloser]

The way I see it, anyone who does an emote while hidden is letting themselves out in the open and have done something that is noticeable.

Any emote in that manner is an invitation for others to react to it.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

[Rindan]

My opinion is that it's kind of a nice thing.  It gives the player something to think about.  The character has no idea they're being watched, most likely, but now the player gets to think, "Why are they watching me?  Am I involved in something I don't know about?  What's going to happen?  What's going -on-?"

That might be your opinion, but in my opinion, it is roughly on par with my best IC friend going "OOC BTW, my character hates you and is plotting to kill you *wink*".  Someone might get off on knowing stuff their character doesn't, but I don't.

Simply put, it isn't welcomed.  I don't want extra OOC information.  I don't want to know that you are sitting there hidden any more then I want you to OOC what your character really feels about mine or e-mail me about the super secret plot that I got involved in that I don't yet know about yet know.  

It is OOC information pure and simple.  Granted, we live with OOC information all the time.  We know stuff that our character doesn't.  We make pretty extrodinary efforts to avoid spreading OOC information though.  I would rather see this policy of avoiding the spread of OOC information carry through in game and out, and not make hiding the one exception.

Emote stuff you want people to act on.  If your goal is to 'scare' the player, at least for me, it does nothing more then irritate me as a player in the same way OOCing your real thoughts and feelings would.  I think the best rule of thumb is simple.  Don't emote it while hidden unless you want people to react.

[Jarod550]

Do my eyes deceive me, are some people arguing that roleplaying and emoting aren't needed for a coded command...

Praise Jesus, they have finally come into the light and noticed that not every nod must be emoted!

My holy father!  They have realized that the code does it's duty!

Meh,

Jarod

[amoeba]

Simply put, it isn't welcomed.  I don't want extra OOC information.  I don't want to know that you are sitting there hidden any more then I want you to OOC what your character really feels about mine or e-mail me about the super secret plot that I got involved in that I don't yet know about yet know.

This is rather stretching it to extremes.  Quite frankly there are times when a hidden emote is not only alright, but a valuble commodity.  

Is it your opinion that it is not possible for a hidden person to step on a twig, or to have a light scrunch of gravel under thier feet, the sound echoing off the cliffs and still manage to remain unseen? Hell you ever try to spot a deer rushing by, often you can hear them, but they are damned hard to see.   Remaining hidden, does not always equate to remaining unnoticed.

A well done hidden emote is not ooc information. It is interacting with the environment.  It is also a useful tool for increasing tension when used well.  Should a logger wonder if it was a goudra stepping on and breaking that twig, or was it a delf checking him out?  God forbid, it could be a halfling deciding what sauce would go well with filet of logger!

The enviroment is full of things you can hear but not see, smell but not locate, catch a brief glimpse off out of the corner of your eye but can't figure out where it went. Since when did the world we inhabit become become a pure black and white code driven world?

Ooc my butt, although I will say it seems you are making Jarod happy. ;-)