Please don't emote around people while hidden or invisible.

[jhunter]

I hate hidden emotes for the most part. If you are about to reveal your character to mine, then fine. But I personally don't like the surprise revealed to me OOC and then I have to sit there and make my pc act surprised.
It is much more enjoyable to me to be surprised both IC and OOC. It's also more realistic as it puts me more closely into the same state of mind as my character when we are both surprised at the same time.
You might enjoy spouting off with a bunch of hidden emotes but I think it's rather selfish to do so when you could be ruining the enjoyment of another. There are other alternatives for you to show to yourself more what you are doing while hidden for now.
I believe I've said this time and time again but I find hidden emoters to be OOCly saying:
"Hey, look at me! I'm hidden and your character doesn't know I'm there, hahahah! Aren't I cool!"
Then I'm sitting there OOCly, saying to myself:
"Oh nice, there's someone hidden around and they are showing off. Man, this would have been so much more fun to find out if/when my character does. Gee, I'm glad -someone- is enjoying this because they just ruined the scene for me."

[jhunter]

Simply put, it isn't welcomed.  I don't want extra OOC information.  I don't want to know that you are sitting there hidden any more then I want you to OOC what your character really feels about mine or e-mail me about the super secret plot that I got involved in that I don't yet know about yet know.

This is rather stretching it to extremes.  Quite frankly there are times when a hidden emote is not only alright, but a valuble commodity.  

Is it your opinion that it is not possible for a hidden person to step on a twig, or to have a light scrunch of gravel under thier feet, the sound echoing off the cliffs and still manage to remain unseen? Hell you ever try to spot a deer rushing by, often you can hear them, but they are damned hard to see.   Remaining hidden, does not always equate to remaining unnoticed.

A well done hidden emote is not ooc information. It is interacting with the environment.  It is also a useful tool for increasing tension when used well.  Should a logger wonder if it was a goudra stepping on and breaking that twig, or was it a delf checking him out?  God forbid, it could be a halfling deciding what sauce would go well with filet of logger!

The enviroment is full of things you can hear but not see, smell but not locate, catch a brief glimpse off out of the corner of your eye but can't figure out where it went. Since when did the world we inhabit become become a pure black and white code driven world?

Ooc my butt, although I will say it seems you are making Jarod happy. ;-)

It is OOC Amoeba. If you hadn't of emoted while hidden they wouldn't have known OOCly that you were there, just as their pc doesn't know. Can it add a little bit to the scene for -some- people? Yep.
Does it let -every- person around know that there is someone hidden around OOCly? Yep.
I don't see how others can be so disrepectful and inconsiderate of the enjoyment of their fellow players to -not- take into account that -some- of us -don't- want to know OOCly before our character's find out IC.
Knowing OOC, when it could've been prevented, takes away from immersion unnecessarily.

[amoeba]

This my last on this because the debate is turning into a less than fruitfull arguement and into an I said you said type of thing.

Quite frankly the OOC argument is specious at best. Using the same reasoning you could argue against the use of VNPC's as the person wouldn't have known there was a grey bearded dwarf that just trampled over your toes.   I will continue to interact with the enivonment about me when hidden, just as I turn my head to feel a cool breeze on my cheek when visible. (is it ooc knowledge, hell you emoted you had your back to me), I will rustle past a bush when I am less than agile.  You may hear light steps as I am leaving.  Hell the only ooc here is in you -assuming- it is a person, a PC.  Why couldn't it be a goudra or a tregil?  The statement that footsteps trailing off in the distance "takes away from immersion unnecessarily" is absoultly ludicrous on it's face.

One last note, then I am done. If it is wrong to emote when hidden, then the IMMs would have made it codedly impossible to do so.

[jhunter]

You simply don't get it and I'm not going to waste time trying to help you understand something that you are -completely- missing the point on. I've said my peace on this subject a few times now. I'm done.

[spawnloser]

Okay...since people are still arguing, let's go back to what Marko said and paraphrase...

If you emote something, that means that others are detecting what you are emoting, as you are telling them that they are by emoting in the first place...

>em floats around the bar.

Well, how my character would notice an invisible person do that...I don't know, but you just told me that I noticed it.

>em curses softly from a bush beside the road.

This, however, is an EXCELLENT hidden/invis emote.  Yes, some things aren't OOC when done right...while others, nearly the exact same thing from a code perspective (emoting while hidden/invis) are wonderful tools of RP.  Use them appropriately, intelligently and creatively to make the game better.

[Agent_137]

Yes yes, if all hidden emotes were bad, the immortals would have said, "DO NOT EMOTE WHILE HIDDEN."

If all were allowed, they would have said, "IT'S FINE. EMOTE AWAY."

Instead, emoting while hidden is just like any other emote: there are good ones and bad ones.

See spawnloser's post for good examples of both. Above mine. ^^^^ right there.

[Mudder]

Don't emote while hidden around other people? That is like asking them to stop emoting at all around anyone else. And if this happens, the Mud will got to shit and I will certainly stop playing. I like it when the shady type have the balls to emote while hidden. Not many will do it, because they are affraid their pc will be branded an automatic theif.

[marko]

To paraphrase myself

Emoting while hidden is fine.

Just don't get upset if someone reacts to it ICly because you've given them an IC cause to do so.  Any emote is an indication that the character _may_ have noticed something - anything.

It is entirely up to the player involved to decide if they ignore it or react to it.

Personally, I often have my characters ignore what people do when they aren't hidden let alone what's going on while hidden.  

In other words, to me, this is a live and let live scenario.  People can emote passing gas while hidden - but then people can react to the smell.  

Light footsteps?  Cocking of the head and trying to hear more of them.  
Someone flying around in the air?  A breeze brushing against the face.  
A rustle from a bush?  A glance in that direction.
Someone being really stealthy and going for your back?  Spidey's senses tingling!

To me, reacting to a hidden emote depends on the character and the situation.  Will the character see who was looking at them - nope, but will they react to it?  Sometimes.

If anyone gets upset that someone reacts to their hidden emote well the only person to blame there it yourself for doing the emote in the first place.  You are tossing something out in the IC world and giving it up to the other character to notice it or not.

'sides, why bother doing hidden emotes if it isn't done to interact with others?

[Cuusardo]

I personally like well done hidden emotes.  It shows me that there's someone in the crowd that is doing something that's not quite obvious, and quite possibly trying to screw with me, or other people in the room.  That person is blending in very well either with the crowd or the shadows, and it could be any one of those grebbers milling around the tavern that's doing it.  You just don't know.

[Rindan]

This is rather stretching it to extremes.  Quite frankly there are times when a hidden emote is not only alright, but a valuble commodity.  

Is it your opinion that it is not possible for a hidden person to step on a twig, or to have a light scrunch of gravel under thier feet, the sound echoing off the cliffs and still manage to remain unseen? Hell you ever try to spot a deer rushing by, often you can hear them, but they are damned hard to see.   Remaining hidden, does not always equate to remaining unnoticed.

You completely misunderstand me if you think that I dislike hidden emoting entirely.  If I am out in the wilderness and all of sudden a hidden person emotes snapping a twig, awesome.  If my hunter is already on edge, he will snap his head around towards the direction of the noise, scan, and be very paranoid.  Snapping twigs is something I can respond to.  I might not respond too it, but the option is there.  Further, I doubt anyone would take great offense if my ranger starts getting suspicious and nervous and acts like someone might be tailing him.

The place where it pisses me off is when it is something that my character shouldn't respond to.  "Someone smirks as he listens to you in the shadows" is about as needed as an "OOC LoL!  I am listening to you hidden and my character thinks you suck."

There are some good times for hidden emotes.  Those times never ever include times when you wouldn't want a character to respond to your actions.  I don't want you to OOC me your character's true intentions and get pissed off if I respond to them any more then I want you to hidden emote to me what your character is doing and get pissed off when I respond.

The rule of thumb is really simple.  If you would be pissed off if someone stood up and did a scan on the basis of your emote, don't emote it.  I consider anything hidden emoted to be a failed attempt at hiding.  "Someone smirks in the shadows" says to me that you are blatantly following my conversation and that I just noticed that you were following it too closely.  "Someone creeps towards you behind your back, dagger ready" says to me that a VNPC just warned me that someone is creeping towards my back with a knife.  "Someone pushes a person out of the way as he keeps up behind you" means that your attempts to stalk me have become sloppy and that I now realize someone is following me.  

People can hidden emote whatever they want.  They just need to realize that as soon as they do it means that they no longer want coded protection.  It means that they want to RP a failed hiding attempt and that it is okay for my character to respond to what he sees.

[amoeba]

Yep, this is what I meant by "in context".  I really need to simplify my speech, but this is honestly the way I talk.

I also don't care for subjective hidden emotes, ones that make no sense for the environment.  It seems everyone (mostly) in the thread is saying the same thing.

One note though, when I first stared doing hidden emotes, I believe my second one ever, I got ripped oocly about the innapropriateness of it.  I also got oocly ripped for reacting to a weak hidden emote in a tavern.  It still seems there are plenty of people who want to rail on heavily about hidden emotes, something about the subject I suppose.  It's one thing to be consitaintly doing things badly, it's another to make the occasinal brain fart.

If you feel something is inapporpriate and you feel driven to correct the person doing it, please write up a polite email with some constructive comments and email it through the IMMs.  I can count on my thumbs comments I have recieved from other players via this method, either negative or positive during the past two years.  Direct that energy writing a gripe post to giving the person some constructive feedback.

[Armaddict]

That might be your opinion, but in my opinion, it is roughly on par with my best IC friend going "OOC BTW, my character hates you and is plotting to kill you *wink*". Someone might get off on knowing stuff their character doesn't, but I don't.

You still don't know shit.  You wonder.

[Armaddict]

marko wrote:
The way I see it, anyone who does an emote while hidden is letting themselves out in the open and have done something that is noticeable.

Any emote in that manner is an invitation for others to react to it.
I agree with this wholeheartedly.

And so you know...I see this as a copout.  All of a sudden, people don't trust themselves to decide when they notice something or not.  So now, in a crowded bar, people say to decide whether you notice this little thing happening over there or not...but the guy who's escaping notice, if his foot scrapes the floor, they -will- notice.  Or at least you want them to.

Hidden people may be out of view, but that in no way says that if they decide to make an emote about -what their character is doing- (which is the same thing you do when you solo-rp, mind you, which I know some of you are strong advocates for), that they are -begging- for someone else to notice them and everyone in the room should react because of that damn 'someone' who's tossing out emotes.

You think it's different because other people see the someone?  Bullshit.  It's still playing a character in the game.  So I'll continue using hidden emotes that I like to do, and if you stand and instantly scan, I'll just shake my head at you.  If you interact well, I'll feel pretty good.  And if you don't react, right on.  I can -play- my character in piece, rather than becoming another hidden listening peek-bot.

[My 2 sids]

Boy, some people get caught coming and going!  On the one hand people complain and love to cry "twink" whenever the code is used w.o emotes attached.  Then people (often the same people) now complain about hidden emotes.  Isn't that kind of hypocritical?  

Second, I say look at the location.  If characters are in a room w/ NPCs and VNPCs there is going to be a lot going on;  "someone" will always be creeping around or crouching or etc.  I say if a character sees "someone" that gives a good indication that said character isn't noticing much because obviously they can't pick out any distinguishing features.  It could even simply reflect that said character is paranoid and seeing things.

[Rindan]

And so you know...I see this as a copout.  All of a sudden, people don't trust themselves to decide when they notice something or not.  So now, in a crowded bar, people say to decide whether you notice this little thing happening over there or not...but the guy who's escaping notice, if his foot scrapes the floor, they -will- notice.  Or at least you want them to.

Hidden people may be out of view, but that in no way says that if they decide to make an emote about -what their character is doing- (which is the same thing you do when you solo-rp, mind you, which I know some of you are strong advocates for), that they are -begging- for someone else to notice them and everyone in the room should react because of that damn 'someone' who's tossing out emotes.

There is a universal theme that runs throughout ALL of Armageddon's rules.  Keep the OOC and the IC seperated as much as possible.  It isn't acceptable for me to post what my character did today.  It isn't acceptable for me to OOC in the middle of a scene to explain my character's actions.  Hell, we are told to avoid using subjective emoting like "emote is happy" because it is giving other players information they shouldn't have.

Hidden emoting is no different.  If you are emoting something that you don't want people to respond to, you are just throw OOC information at them.  Certainly I can seperate the OOC and the IC when someone starts to broad cast what their invisible, err, hidden player is doing.  I can also seperate the OOC and the IC when someone posts the story of their character's life on the message boards.  Both are still unacceptable.  Both still violate giving more OOC information then is needed.

There is a damn good reason why you can't post about what spells exist and how they work.  We like the mystery left in the game in so far as much as that is possible.  Solo RPing in the desert doesn't destroy the mystery of what is happening in the game for others.  Emoting while hidden stuff that you will take person offense to if someone responds to it does ruin the mystery.

You think it's different because other people see the someone?  Bullshit.  It's still playing a character in the game.  So I'll continue using hidden emotes that I like to do, and if you stand and instantly scan, I'll just shake my head at you.  If you interact well, I'll feel pretty good.  And if you don't react, right on.  I can -play- my character in piece, rather than becoming another hidden listening peek-bot.

If you want to describe what your character is doing yet want people to utterly ignore you, use the think command.  Using the think command lets you solo RP each and every move you make to your hearts content without broadcasting to the entire room that you are indeed hidden and watching them.  You get to describe your actions without OOCing to everyone that you are indeed there and hidden.

If you want to drop hints that you are there that people can respond to, awesome.  They might or might not respond.  If you are going to RP out 'someone smirks in the shadow' I am going to shake my head and RP out seeing someone showing too much interest in my conversation and acting accordingly.  If it bothers you that after you have decided to broadcast OOC information that people just make assumptions about what they can and can't see, use the think command.  There isn't a reason in the world to use the think command over the emote command in this instance, other then that one broadcasts information that you apparently consider OOC and don't want other players to use, while the other keeps that information to yourself and doesn't ruin the immersion of others.