Independance, is it possible?

[Stroker]

I can understand that Jarod wants to play the game and run around and be a hunter/adventurer instead of get involved in the intricate sensitive stuff. Certainly the Armageddon world is rich and deep and detailed and permadeath makes things exciting in that way. The thing is, to me that is playing Armageddon MUD like a hack and slash. It seems to be completely missing the point of what the game is tailored to.

He wants to play a hunter. I too have played a hunter previously. Role-playing a hunter is more than reasonable in the context of Zalanthas. Therefore, I can only suggest that you reconsider your argument. I'd rather 100 % of the Zalanthan PC population role-play a hunter WELL than role-play a myriad of other roles poorly (which is often the case). I've seen numerous hunters well played, but I've seen only a sparse minority of nobles/templars/magickers/etc that display a similar proficiency. Yes, they are more difficult to play, but a player new to the gameworld shouldn't be vying for such a role.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[LoD]

Playing with a "I don't care what anyone thinks and I'm unwilling to play the game realistically if I can't be doing exactly what I want to do at any given time" attitude, to me, just seems like missing the point.

That is not my attitude... AGAIN read my prior posts

Here's what you say in your prior posts, Jarod:

I play to play and have fun, I love rping with -pcs-, but the nonsense of roleplaying while you kick a training dummy with nobody around is silly.

I play games for fun, I -make- the character bend or rationalize to -my- concept of fun, because I think it would be even more boring than sitting in the tavern watching fancy emoters, to play a character I don't like.

You're here to have fun, I'm here to have fun. You -character- is a fake thing that you made up and help to make appear living with a bunch of programming code.

I do my best to role play them realistically but in ways I enjoy as the player.

By your words, this is exactly your attitude.  You're obviously very passionate about the game, and that is good.  You also want to improve or else you wouldn't even be posting on the board in the first place.  But if you come asking questions, you can't get mad when someone gives you an answer if it isn't thet one you were expecting.

My suggestion is to consider the life of the character rather than the wants of Jarod.  

-Go hunting because the character wants/needs to go hunting, not because Jarod wants to hunt.

-Sit and talk in a tavern because your character has been hunting all day and needs a break from skinning his 50th scrab, not because you hope an Imm will see you actually not killing something and give you karma.

-Spar against a training dummy because your character would use that time to improve themselves, not because you're trying to avoid getting more "bad notes" from an Imm for not RPing when people aren't around.

The bottom line is that you should do things in game because your character would do them, not because Jarod would do them.  And that sometimes requires RPing when there aren't any people around.  Also, if the Imms have taken time to give you notes on things you could improve upon, take them to heart instead of believing they're just drawing the wrong conclusions about your RP.

No one is asking you not to have fun, but they are asking you to find a way to have fun while realizing that some of your actions may be viewed by Imms/players as poor RP.

-LoD

[Jarod550]

By your words, this is exactly your attitude.  You're obviously very passionate about the game, and that is good.  You also want to improve or else you wouldn't even be posting on the board in the first place.  But if you come asking questions, you can't get mad when someone gives you an answer if it isn't thet one you were expecting.

My suggestion is to consider the life of the character rather than the wants of Jarod.  

-Go hunting because the character wants/needs to go hunting, not because Jarod wants to hunt.

-Sit and talk in a tavern because your character has been hunting all day and needs a break from skinning his 50th scrab, not because you hope an Imm will see you actually not killing something and give you karma.

-Spar against a training dummy because your character would use that time to improve themselves, not because you're trying to avoid getting more "bad notes" from an Imm for not RPing when people aren't around.

The bottom line is that you should do things in game because your character would do them, not because Jarod would do them.  And that sometimes requires RPing when there aren't any people around.  Also, if the Imms have taken time to give you notes on things you could improve upon, take them to heart instead of believing they're just drawing the wrong conclusions about your RP.

No one is asking you not to have fun, but they are asking you to find a way to have fun while realizing that some of your actions may be viewed by Imms/players as poor RP.

-LoD[/quote]

I am beyond the thinking of "Hmm will this or that get me Karma" I enjoy my character to the point where it doesn't matter, because if I had or was given karma, I wouldn't be able to use it unless my fellow was dead, which I don't wish at all.

I haven't heard a thing from the Imms in a while, that's why I purposefully put them on the spot in the ask the staff page.  And so far, besides to posts I write, nobody has complained about my current characters actions or motives.

Back some characters ago I played him unrealistically, I killed rinthers cause I could by the code, I would steal repeatedly in blatent disregard for the thief bible or whatever that book is.  I was your normal hack and slash "twink".  With this fellow, I rationalize everything I do, whether it be who I talk to, where I travel, what I'm practicing, and if it wasn't riddled with IC info I would scan my yellow pad of paper for my current character, who isn't -even- ten days old yet in game.  I have 23 pages of legal yellow pad paper filled with concepts and ideas, and people I've met along the way, tasks, people seeking this people seeking that.

In short, you don't go to the extremes I'm going with all this record keeping, brainstorming ect if you're trying to be a twink.

I've only had one negative note on this fellow and plan to eventually see him ig years down the road, and with nobody in the realms not knowing who he is.

I guess this is why I get pissed off when I am told that "You shouldn't do that, it's not realistic", when I can flip through my pad of notes and find fifteen reasons to do just that.

And to basically get back on topic, you folks don't have to like me, Jarod the player, I have my friends, I have my enemies, but until you've ran into me IG and interacted with me IG and know you have, I would just stop pointing all these fingers and claiming "bad rper!" "powergamer" ect.

Life your characters life, I'll live mine, and who knows when they will pop up in each others.

Jarod

[Agent_137]

I think most of the board members play this game for the roleplaying factor. It's not that they enjoy hunting or don't enjoy it, it's that they enjoy playing out a specific character's life. The game isn't tailored to politics, or to hunting, but it IS built for taking a character and breathing life into him.

Granted, some people don't like certain things and thus avoid them ICly. Some people can't stand being a guard. They find it boring. So they avoid making characters that would relish guard duty, since it conflicts.

So no one is saying one should enslave themselves to a task they hate because their character would do it, but at the same time, your character can't just be your own personal avatar in Zalanthas because that's missing the real point of this game. If that's what your after, hunting and chatting in another world, there are MUDs more suited to that.

But there's nothing wrong is playing a hunter, as long as you're here to "play the role a hunter named Amos" and not just to "log in and kill some scrab."

So that's where the line is, I think, between roleplaying and hack and slash. And if one is interested in hack and slash, then they DO need to go elsewhere, as this ISN'T a hack and slash game. And if one plays it that way, they hurt the gameplay of everyone else playing by a different set of rules, a more limited set.

Yet, it's hard to draw judgement on some one else unless you're an immortal and have access to all their logs.

So, quite frankly, sometimes Jarod seems like he's got things under control is a wonderful addition to the armageddon family, and sometimes he sounds like he's not really getting the gist of Armageddon. But it is impossible for us to truely know. So I intend to do just that, play my damn character and let the immortals do their job.

[Jarod550]

So, quite frankly, sometimes Jarod seems like he's got things under control is a wonderful addition to the armageddon family, and sometimes he sounds like he's not really getting the gist of Armageddon. But it is impossible for us to truely know. So I intend to do just that, play my damn character and let the immortals do their job.

Thank you

Jarod

[williamson]

I think it is quite possible to play truely independent characters. When I first started playing Armageddon almost all of my PC's were in clans. I played both as leaders and followers and enjoyed both roles. Eventually, times changed. I didn't have time to play regularly and I frequently played during non-peak hours. So, I started to play non-clan characters.

Playing as an independent is difficult, it is hard to get started and if you make enemies your frequently all alone. Despite the challenges, some of my favorite characters were independents.  As an independent, you also get a lot of freedom. There is no boss, no restrictions on travel, and no rules. These freedoms likely appeal to quite a few players.

Here is some free advice on surviving as an independent.

1) Avoid hunting anything that is intelligent. This includes gith, nomads, mantis, and halflings. These creatures are intelligent and belong to tribes. If you attack them, expect them to react intelligently. It's quite plausable they might contact others for help, try to escape, or lure you into a trap. If they begin acting this way, don't get upset. The imms are trying to destroy  all your independent hunters. They are just playing out a  realistic encounter.

2) Avoid the Grey Forest. Everyone knows that the forest is filled with halflings. If you are attacked by a halfling, expect others to show up soon to help their tribemate. Then you can expect to die.  Traveling through the forest is very tiring which only compounds the problems there.

3) Avoid playing as a raider until you have some talent. I usually start characters that will be raiders as hunters first. Once you are a skilled hunter, you will have much more success as a raider. Once you decide to do some raiding, think of something creative to give you an advantage. You don't want to just go around attacking everyone you see. Never fight a fair fight and you'll be much less likely to lose.

4) Only steal things worth stealing.  IMO, stealing everyones knife isn't going to make your character rich nor is it risk the worth of going to jail.  My last character was a burglar. It was not uncommon for him to break into an apartment, find a bunch of useless junk, and leave the apartment without taking anything. However, if I found a brick of spice, you can bet I cleaned the place out.

5) Exploring frequently uncovers death.  I've lost more than one ranger by riding into some distant land that I knew nothing about or crawling into some unknown dark cave.  Be careful if you go exploring, pack plenty of rations and water, and have extra time just in case you can't find a place to quit.

6) Don't hunt huge creatures. Mekillots, bahamets, and half-giants are not things you want to tangle with all alone. Avoid hunting anything that can kill you with a few good blows.

Hope some of you find this advice helpful,

-Williamson

[Cuusardo]

It's been my experience that even the indies end up working for a House, even if only indirectly.

[spawnloser]

I haven't heard a thing from the Imms in a while, that's why I purposefully put them on the spot in the ask the staff page.  And so far, besides to posts I write, nobody has complained about my current characters actions or motives.

Your post in Ask The Staff doesn't look like you're putting the Staff on the spot...it sounds like you actually want them to say that you're a good roleplayer in public so that you can thumb your nose at the people that don't like you.

This is just my take on this.  I mean, you seem very opinionated and raise people's ire in your use of derogatory terms and with your seeming refusal to consider other people's viewpoints.

You could be a great roleplayer, but you're a troll on the GDB, plain and simple.  People can hate you as a person, but love playing with your characters.  Your asking the staff to comment for the whole playerbase to see on your roleplaying ability has nothing to do with how people will like/dislike you and how your portray yourself outside the game.  I don't think anyone is calling you a bad roleplayer or a twink, but they're saying that in some ways, you don't quite seem to get the big picture.  You get a good amount of what Arm is about, but you seem to have expectations that more experienced players do not...so they try to get you to understand the alternate view, but you refuse.  Whatever.  You've been told that the life of an indie is hard and not likely to get staff attention...you seem to prefer that, but for what reason, people wil assume the worst with how you portray yourself on the GDB.  You seem to want Karma, but are unwilling to try a role that you can get attention and prove that you are worthy of it to the staff.  Your loss.

Anyway, I think we've pounded the concept of an indie into the ground...we've given advice and received it...we've discussed the benefits and the problems.  Let's not turn this thread into any more of an argument.  Personally, as I've said before, I'm just trying to help.  I'm only giving my opinions based on observation, and little that is said will change my opinions on the matters I've voiced my opinions on, so don't try to explain how my perceptions or opinions are wrong.  Just take what I've said with the intent it's been said...as advice and help, someone else's perception so that everyone can learn.

[Jarod550]

I haven't heard a thing from the Imms in a while, that's why I purposefully put them on the spot in the ask the staff page.  And so far, besides to posts I write, nobody has complained about my current characters actions or motives.

Your post in Ask The Staff doesn't look like you're putting the Staff on the spot...it sounds like you actually want them to say that you're a good roleplayer in public so that you can thumb your nose at the people that don't like you.

This is just my take on this.  I mean, you seem very opinionated and raise people's ire in your use of derogatory terms and with your seeming refusal to consider other people's viewpoints.

You could be a great roleplayer, but you're a troll on the GDB, plain and simple.  People can hate you as a person, but love playing with your characters.  Your asking the staff to comment for the whole playerbase to see on your roleplaying ability has nothing to do with how people will like/dislike you and how your portray yourself outside the game.  I don't think anyone is calling you a bad roleplayer or a twink, but they're saying that in some ways, you don't quite seem to get the big picture.  You get a good amount of what Arm is about, but you seem to have expectations that more experienced players do not...so they try to get you to understand the alternate view, but you refuse.  Whatever.  You've been told that the life of an indie is hard and not likely to get staff attention...you seem to prefer that, but for what reason, people wil assume the worst with how you portray yourself on the GDB.  You seem to want Karma, but are unwilling to try a role that you can get attention and prove that you are worthy of it to the staff.  Your loss.

Anyway, I think we've pounded the concept of an indie into the ground...we've given advice and received it...we've discussed the benefits and the problems.  Let's not turn this thread into any more of an argument.  Personally, as I've said before, I'm just trying to help.  I'm only giving my opinions based on observation, and little that is said will change my opinions on the matters I've voiced my opinions on, so don't try to explain how my perceptions or opinions are wrong.  Just take what I've said with the intent it's been said...as advice and help, someone else's perception so that everyone can learn.

Okay.

Jarod

[Moofassa]

I haven't heard a thing from the Imms in a while, that's why I purposefully put them on the spot in the ask the staff page.  And so far, besides to posts I write, nobody has complained about my current characters actions or motives.

Your post in Ask The Staff doesn't look like you're putting the Staff on the spot...it sounds like you actually want them to say that you're a good roleplayer in public so that you can thumb your nose at the people that don't like you.

Here here!

[Anonymous]

After reading the some of the posts and replies that are typical for the GDB, I'm sure that if I were a new player, I'd move on without ever giving the game a chance, convinced that there was some player sitting on every corner just waiting for the chance to label me a twink.

Jarod, I think we're alike in that we're more action-oriented than the bulk of the player base here. I remember there being some sort of mud personality test with four categories: social, explorer, builder and fighter (?). I suspect most people here score well in the social category whereas we want to go out and do the other three.

Remember, most people here will tell you:

- how wonderful it is to die
- how good a time they had when someone killed their character
- how they took two hours to travel five rooms, emoting all the way, and loved it
- how good solo-RP is

and so on. Socially oriented.

What I've decided is that there is still room for more active types in the game, and that the active types still can RP successfully and fit into the player base. But there's just no profit in talking about it and looking for approval on the GDB.

The key is moderation. Do different things mixed together over time and you'll be fine. A bit of exploring, a bit of foraging, a bit of hunting, some time in the city. Don't go monomatic and you won't get labeled.

[Lazloth]

I remember there being some sort of mud personality test with four categories: social, explorer, builder and fighter (?).

As an aside, the original (Bartle) temperament classifications described Killers, Achievers, Explorers and Socializers.  The "refined" Keirsey test is a little more extensive in its classification scheme.

[Moofassa]

Idependance is quite possible, and realistic.

I've played quite a few indies. With every one, I would never hunt for more than he needed. He would get enough to eat, and enough to sell to fill his waterskin. After fullfilling that he'd get outta the dangerous areas as fast as he could.

The only thing I don't like about alot of independants, is their general disregard to the realism of playing a character on a static desert world.

[Yokunama]

Jarod, I think we're alike in that we're more action-oriented than the bulk of the player base here. I remember there being some sort of mud personality test with four categories: social, explorer, builder and fighter (?). I suspect most people here score well in the social category whereas we want to go out and do the other three.

There are limits on how much action your character can take. Like in the real world, people have their limits. You shouldn't push your character over the limits everytime, because you are bored out of your mind. It would be hard to picture someone hunting at full strength after a neardeath experience in the same day.

It wouldn't hurt for your character to sit around in the taverns, or do something that doesn't require "action", every now and then. There will always be time for action.

[Agent_137]

well, it's also important to consider just how interested you are in "Action."

If you're more interested in the action of hunting than you are in developing your character and interacting with others, then perhaps this game isn't for you. The player base isn't suited toward such a preference nor is the codebase, nor are the immortals. There are MANY hack and slash muds out there that can satisfy you better.

Also keep in mind if one group is playing by a different rule set than the rest, some people are going to get screwed.

So saying you're "action oriented" doesn't mean you're playing the game wrong. The problem is it just says you MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be playing the game wrong and fucking us all in the ass. So you can understand why we bristle at comments like that.

As I said before, unless the person is willing to explain in detail a typical zalanthian day for their character, which would likely be too IC for you to know, you can't really judge them. But if you see any suspiscious activies and habits of some one IG, please report your suspiscions to the mud account with clarity and politenes.

[Anonymous]

I wish people would reply to the entire post instead of just taking one paragraph and respond to it as though that was all that was said. To quote my previous post (re: action etc.)

The key is moderation. Do different things mixed together over time and you'll be fine. A bit of exploring, a bit of foraging, a bit of hunting, some time in the city. Don't go monomatic and you won't get labeled.

[moab]

I wish people would reply ....

There. I replied.  Happy?


;-)

[Cenghiz]

Only read page 1 of this post then sorry... got bored.

Independance... Our dream eh? It means nothing.. Simply nothing.
Let's say you're a ranger. You managed to live on without the help of anyone. It's easy.. Since rangers can 'forage food' they can live without anyone and even never setting foot to the cities all their lives. But then? There is nothing done for the greater purpose. Even if you're not employed you always get forced to do some work for them; houses, templerate, independant merchants, kurac etc to keep the story going. Without someone needing you you're nothing, even if you are the best ranger in the known world.
So employed or unemployed, we're dependant on others to keep the story going. [joking]The only exceptions are the defilers; since they stay in a cave and train spells for the first 20 years of their lives.[/joking]

[moab]

Cenghiz hits on an important flaw of independence, I think.

You _can_ survive on your own - but to what end?

You live alone - do some things - die alone with no one to mourn you, no one to remember you and in a day or two (or a couple of hours if there are gale force winds out there) no one will even find your body.

Nothing.  You might as well never have existed.

On Zalanthas the only chance of immortality is to be remembered by your friends, the things you've helped do for organizations that survive individual deaths - those are the things that make for working in groups the prize it is.

As I'm thinking about this (less than halfway into my morning coffee and lacking sleep), I'm thinking that it would take an odd bugger to want to live alone in the wastes - to be truly independent.   Criminals, maybe - but even they would long for a stiff drink and a m/f whore now and again.  Maybe some really anti-social characters - but most would be lonely and question the meaning of their existence.

[Nao]

iondependence doesn't mean that you've got absolutely no friends and never tal to anyone.

[EvilRoeSlade]

- how wonderful it is to die
- how good a time they had when someone killed their character
- how they took two hours to travel five rooms, emoting all the way, and loved it
- how good solo-RP is

and so on. Socially oriented.

You're not giving social interaction a fair chance here.  Take me for example.

I hate dying.  I want all my characters to live forever.

If a character kills my character, regardless of how little or how much they emote while doing it, I will hate that character forever and assume the worst about their motivations, rationalizing that they are twinks.  If I know who the player of the character was (and thankfully I rarely do), I'll hate the player forever too.

When I'm planning a journey I always give it plenty of time so it can occur in a realistic manner rather than speeding from Allanak to Tuluk in three minutes, and I always try to emote, but I don't always do it a lot.

I don't like solo RP and I'm bad at it.  Usually I idle when I'm alone or try to contact someone who is interesting.

I LOVE social role-play.

Don't get me wrong, I've played many hunters.  I've played a hunter who, after buying starting gear went out and lived in the desert forever and only came back to the cities to unload his goods.  That hunter lived a long time, and he spent the majority of his time crafting, foraging, or hunting.  Despite that fact, I never to my knowledge got a remark on my account that said that I was hunting too much.  I did not enter cities that often, but whenever the chance for social interaction came along, I seized it.  I never spam-walked by someone no matter how dangerous they looked.  I always tried to engage everyone I met in conversation, as far as it was reasonable for my character to do so.

Sometimes I spent entire game sessions without using a single coded skill except maybe ride when I was playing that character, because I was too busy using the say command.

Interacting with other players is the ONLY point there is to Armageddon.  Killing NPCs, while all well and good, is a secondary goal at best.  Everytime you interact with an NPC, it will do the same thing.  Most NPCs will not emote or use the say command, and if an NPC does so, it's only a stock emote or dialogue that will get old after you've seen it ten-thousand times.  The only time an NPC you've encountered even once before will suprise you is if an immortal is animating it, and at that point you are essentially interacting with a player rather than an NPC.

A player will suprise you every time you interact with one.  Unless they're spending all their time killing NPCs.

[Cuusardo]

There is plenty of room for social interaction in any role.

[ale six]

Interacting with other players is the ONLY point there is to Armageddon.  Killing NPCs, while all well and good, is a secondary goal at best.  Everytime you interact with an NPC, it will do the same thing.  Most NPCs will not emote or use the say command, and if an NPC does so, it's only a stock emote or dialogue that will get old after you've seen it ten-thousand times.  The only time an NPC you've encountered even once before will suprise you is if an immortal is animating it, and at that point you are essentially interacting with a player rather than an NPC.

A player will suprise you every time you interact with one.  Unless they're spending all their time killing NPCs.

I thought this was worth quoting.

[Cale_Knight]

Interacting with other players is the ONLY point there is to Armageddon.

God yes.

[Anonymous]

Interacting with other players is the ONLY point there is to Armageddon.

To quote a goblin named Grovel, "Yes? Yes? Maybe? No."

Keep in mind that Arm has a unique system of game mechanics, a well-developed world that's (mostly) Cartesian and an enticing desert theme. It can be a lot of fun to just explore the world and learn how to survive and prosper.