We Don't Need Water In Magik Fairy Kingdom of Allanak

[Rindan]

We Don't Need Water In Magik Fairy Kingdom of Allanak

Live in Luir's outpost for a RL week, then live in Allanak for a RL week.  What will you notice besides one has more Kuraci then the other?  In Luir's, water eats a solid hunk of your budget.  In Allanak, water is a complete non-issue.  What do 'rinthers kill each other over?  Food, not water.  This isn't how it should be.

Why is water more important in Luir's?  In Luir's, all of the outdoor areas are treated like outdoor areas.  Namely, you dehydrate as you wander the markets and move between buildings.  In Allanak on the other hand, you simply don't need water so long as you never enter the desert.  Personally, I think this warps the reality of the game.  The reality of the game is that you can live off of very little food.  Starving to death takes a damn long time.  Dehydration on the other hand kills quickly and should be the driving force behind the desperate acts of criminals.  Water should have a profound meaning, even in Allanak.  Just because you are in a city doesn't mean that Suk-Krath has stopped taking an interest in you.

I believe that all non-shaded city rooms in Allanak and the 'rinth should be treated like they are open desert for dehydration rate purposes.  If you want to avoid dehydration, stay inside during high sun.  Few things sap the reality of the game like going two months without having bothered to drink.  The top of every 'rinthers mind shouldn't be food, it should be water.  Remind people that Allanak is in the middle of a desert and that Zalanthas is a desert world.  Make outdoor rooms inside of city outdoor rooms.  Even city elves should have to drink.

[Larrath]

I'd like to see dehydration rate become somewhat faster in Allanak and Red Storm, but treating an Allanaki street as open desert is going a little far.
It also sounds like Luir's could also use a bit of fixing.

Either way, if desert dehydration rate was 5 and city dehydration rate was 1, I'd like to see Luir's at 3 (not being in the arid south), and Allanak and Red Storm at 4.  The 'rinth, being full of alleys, is probably also full of shadows, so I'm not sure how much one should dehydrate in there.  3 or 2, I suppose.

Allanak and Red Storm are still not open to those dry desert winds.

[Cuusardo]

I think it is a pretty good idea to dehydrate a little faster out in the streets of Allanak.  There aren't a whole lot of shaded areas around unless you go into an alley or something, so you're exposed to the hot sun, and some of the brunt of wind and the sands they kick up.

[Scarborough]

While the sun is certainly as hot in Allanak, there are more shadows cast by buildings, more opportunities to get under shelter, and a large wall around the city to stop much of the hot winds that would dehydrate, and a greater number of buildings in the city that would further break up winds.  There aren't any really tall buildings so there isn't any wind sheer being caught and channeled down into the streets.  It wouldn't make sense for the dyhydration rate to be the same in Allanak as it is in a smaller town.

[Rindan]

I think there should be a very simple standard.  Unless you are in a water filled cavern, at absolutely all times, WATER should be far more important then food.  You should be thirsty AT LEAST as often as you are hungry, even in a city.  Hell, even in a tavern.  Zalanthas is hot as hell.  Not only is it hot as hell, it is bone dry.  The fact that water is not a worry for your average city dweller but food is, is simply wrong.

Perhaps jacking up thirst rates to that of the Salt Flats in Allanak is a bit harsh, but at the very least, the absolute minimal amount of water needed should at least be equal to needs for food.  

In my opinion, it is role playing destroying to have a character live in Allanak and not need water for MONTHS, yet need to eat every single day.  Water should be what drives people with food being an afterthought, not the other way around.

[RunningMountain]

I disagree. You forget that Allanak has about a thousand people wearing black gems, and probably 3/10th of them help fuel the water around the city. It's a bitch to fill up large water sources too. Food is just as important as water is, especially when your city is surrounded by semi-ariable fields of sand and dirt.

Water is already rare enough. I agree that it shouldn't be buyable in taverns though, especially the labyrinth. Or if it is, it should be pretty expensive. To get water you should be forced to go to the templars or the vivadus. There is no natural water source in the city.

-RM

[EvilRoeSlade]

I've played in Allanak recently.  I think I had to eat a kalan fruit once, but that was about it.

Dehydration rates should be a lot more than they are now, definitely.

[Manhattan]

damn it, you wanna make our PC's piss poor?

[EvilRoeSlade]

damn it, you wanna make our PC's piss poor?

Hell yeah!

[Rindan]

I disagree. You forget that Allanak has about a thousand people wearing black gems, and probably 3/10th of them help fuel the water around the city. It's a bitch to fill up large water sources too. Food is just as important as water is, especially when your city is surrounded by semi-ariable fields of sand and dirt.

Water is already rare enough. I agree that it shouldn't be buyable in taverns though, especially the labyrinth. Or if it is, it should be pretty expensive. To get water you should be forced to go to the templars or the vivadus. There is no natural water source in the city.

-RM

Err, what on earth are you talking about?  I was talking about uping how quickly people get dehydrated in cities above zero.  I don't think anyone said anything about sources of water or anything to do with getting water in taverns.  

The issue is that city dwellers don't need to drink because they never get thirsty.  That is silly.

[Forest Junkie]

damn it, you wanna make our PC's piss poor?

Hell yeah!

*snicker*

Water in itself is not a commodity on Zalanthas currently. I think it should be. People should kill, rape, steal, and cheat for just a small gourd of this stuff. If raising timer on the rate of dehydration will help, so be it. Last I checked we -were- playing on a post-apocalyptic desert planet nearly void of any lush, arable lands or significant free water sources. People should be dying of thirst more often.

[RunningMountain]

Ah. No. Screw that, dehydration rate is high enough outside. Why do you think people live IN the city. There's shade, shelter. People don't just stand around outside in the heat. Even when they do their is going to be shade all over the city.

If the dehydration rate does get increased in the cities, you can go ahead and put the 'shade' code in every room, because just about every room is going to have shade somewhere.

-R

[Gaare]

Wow! Excellent Idea. Such a change for city rooms to somewhere between outside level and today's level would make a huge difference. More fight, more struggle... I liked it! Also, such a change would create a real difference between some nobody and a clanned person which IMHO is very good.

[Cale_Knight]

In my experience, the vast, vast majority of people who live inside cities do so in the employ of either noble houses or merchant houses. Those houses provide free and unlimited water as it is.

So the only people who would be more inconvencied by this are the ones who are coming in from the desert, where water is already scarce and and valuable.

[Maybe42or54]

Bynners, that have to walk from this side of the city to that side, will be affected.

Militia with their 50 'sid "recorded" paypouch, will be affected.

The water in merchant houses isn't unlimited, from my experience, if a Pc doesn't fill the barrels/cistern/what have you, there is no water.
Leaving some 'sidless hunter S.O.L.

An idea though if Dehydration was raised.
The Suk-krath goes around the planet right?

Shade acts like shade in RL?
It moves around from one side of a building to the next.

[Gaare]

Those above are all good ... right? Byn mercenaries will try to find something to fill their skin, the militia will search for ways of coin... All positive if you ask me.. And oh.. sidless hunter will try to join a clan, a noble or merchant house... not recruiters will try to convience a random human to take into their clan.. That again seems good to me.

Also, I doubt buildings in the cities are high to give shade. I guess there are only a handful of buildings which have their third floor. (Ignoring house compounds and estates)

Edit: Editted to add.

[Rindan]

Ah. No. Screw that, dehydration rate is high enough outside. Why do you think people live IN the city. There's shade, shelter. People don't just stand around outside in the heat. Even when they do their is going to be shade all over the city.

If the dehydration rate does get increased in the cities, you can go ahead and put the 'shade' code in every room, because just about every room is going to have shade somewhere.

I live in a city.  I live in a cold and dark New England city by the ocean with high humidity.  During the winter when the days are short, I some times forget what the sun looks like.  I still drink water every single day.  People in the city should have to drink water.  Period.  Water should be a more pressing concern then food.  It is damn hot and there is no humidity no matter where you go.  At best, you can go inside and it will be less hot because Suk-Krath is not beating you over the head constantly.  You still are going to get thirsty very quickly.  You are still in a dry hot as hell desert, even when inside.  Literally going IC YEARS without having to drink is simply insane.

Militia with their 50 'sid "recorded" paypouch, will be affected.

About frigging time.  If the militia would have to struggle a little to make ends meat they might actually be susceptible to a little corruption.  Tek forbid they have expenses that might slow down their acquisition of a full suit of Silt Horror armor.

The water in merchant houses isn't unlimited, from my experience, if a Pc doesn't fill the barrels/cistern/what have you, there is no water.

Kurac seems to manage just fine, and as has already been noted, Luir's is a place where thirst rates DO work properly.

Leaving some 'sidless hunter S.O.L.

Are you listing this as a down side?  You mean hunters might have to struggle a little bit?  Awesome.

An idea though if Dehydration was raised.
The Suk-krath goes around the planet right?

Sure, I wouldn't mind if some parts of the city were considered shaded.  Main streets shouldn't be shaded, but some places might have a few overhands and what not that are considered shaded areas.  Of course, you should dehydrate even in shaded areas.  Hell, you should dehydrate even while sitting in a tavern.  Unless you are swimming in a big pool of water, there isn't a single place in the world where you shouldn't be dehydrating.

Shade acts like shade in RL?
It moves around from one side of a building to the next.

I agree.  Shaded should act like shade in RL.  If it is 140 F or 60 C and you are in the shade, you bet your ass that you are still dehydrating like mad.  You will be dehydrating slower then if out in the sun directly, but you better believe you are going to be getting damn thirsty.

I think there is a very simple rule of thumb that needs to be applied.  If at any time your thirst rate is slower then your starvation rate, unless there is magik involved, something is horribly wrong.  Water should be concern number one at all times, NOT food.

[Delirium]

It also sounds like Luir's could also use a bit of fixing.

Hell no.  The dehydration rates are just about perfect.  Bad enough that you always have to make sure you have some water with you so you don't get caught out, but not so harsh as to be unplayable or overly inconvenient.  

Most people are fairly unimpressed that they get access to free, clean water in clan compounds.  I personally find this a bit ridiculous.  Food should be and is cheaper and easier to get than water, but water should be more IMPORTANT.  Absolutely, totally agree with Rindan's point, there.  

One of my favorite parts of playing a wastelander is how much water factors into everything I do.  Where I go, I have to make sure I have enough water to last me the trip, where I stop, I try to do it in a place where I can gather or aquire water, when I hunt, I stop and look around for more water, and constantly drink gulps here and there to keep myself from getting thirsty - when you live soley out in the wastes, it's of huge importance.  Often most of the weight you carry is in water.

When you're in the city, that importance should diminish only a little bit, due to the nearness of several places where you can buy water.  As it is, it becomes nearly a non-issue and food becomes the main problem.  Water isn't as difficult to find in the city as it is out in the wastes, but it can be almost as difficult to aquire (i.e. having the money for it), and being able to have access to free, clean, and relatively fresh water in a clan compound should be seen as something hugely beneficial, not just "oh, that's nice.. but I still want 500 sid a month and a full suit of armor."

[RunningMountain]

Rindan where are you getting these facts that PCs can go IC years without taking a drink of water. You're insane.

[Cuusardo]

Not all clans have an unlimited water supply.  I happened to be part of a certain clan that did have unlimited water at first, and a change was made to make it so that this was no longer true.  A lot of people complained about it, mostly ICly, but OOCly I felt that it was making things more realistic.  If the tun in the barracks went dry before the time for the alloted ration to be given, it was up to the PCs to refill it.  Much stricter guidelines were put into place as far as for taking water from the barracks.  I'm sure not every clan is like this, but I happen to like the change that was put into effect.  It makes it much more realistic, and added to this harshness that people have a love/hate relationship with.

[Forest Junkie]

If the tun in the barracks went dry before the time for the alloted ration to be given, it was up to the PCs to refill it.

Very true.

[Rindan]

Rindan where are you getting these facts that PCs can go IC years without taking a drink of water. You're insane.

My current PC is a city dweller.  From creation, he never once had to drink until IC years later when I finally had him leave Allanak briefly.  No, he doesn't eat anything with water in it.  Any 'rinther can tell you that this is true.  If you never leave the city, you will never get thirsty.

The cities are wildly unrealistic when it comes to dehydration rates, pure and simple.  I don't think anyone can even begin to argue otherwise with a straight face.  People should get thirsty in cities.  Hell, sitting at my computer I am getting thirsty and it is a nice cool 70 F in my house.

[amoeba]

Rindan where are you getting these facts that PCs can go IC years without taking a drink of water. You're insane.

My current PC is a city dweller.  From creation, he never once had to drink until IC years later when I finally had him leave Allanak briefly.  No, he doesn't eat anything with water in it.  Any 'rinther can tell you that this is true.  If you never leave the city, you will never get thirsty.

The cities are wildly unrealistic when it comes to dehydration rates, pure and simple.  I don't think anyone can even begin to argue otherwise with a straight face.  People should get thirsty in cities.  Hell, sitting at my computer I am getting thirsty and it is a nice cool 70 F in my house.

IC years is an unrealistic measure, number of days of playtime is more accurate. Also if you spent much of that time "drinking" in bars, your deyhdration would not happen at the same level.  It has been my experience that it is indeed quite possible to get dehydrated in the city quite easily.

[Packersfan]

If these are the type of changes that you like, I propose the following to make the game more realstic:

1) When you are hit in the neck or head, your character has a chance of never being able to speak again.
2) The occasional freshly-created character will be mentally retarded, as is true in real life.
3) Your character, no matter how long-lived, will occasionally catch a disease and die, as is in real life.
4) Sometimes, random pieces of architecture will collapse upon your character, killing them, as is in real life.
5) Sometimes your mount, its brain being eaten away with disease, will throw you from its back and trample you to death, as is in real life.

If you want to start being as real as possible so new characters can't survive for longer then 2 minutes, then let's add all of these features to the game to make it more 'real'. Essentially, my point is Allanak is a major city which is far more blocked off from the elements then Luir's is. Furthermore, this difference in dehydration rate could be that your character has obtained water in such a massive city while you are quit out. Or, it could be the fact that water in a massive city such as Allanak is of a purer quality with less sediments in it. There could be so many explanations for this I don't have time to get into them all. I am fully against making it harder for new characters to survive then it already is. We need to get more people to play this game, and this is certainly not how to go about doing so.

[Gaare]

Making game non-playable is something, a bit more harsh is something else. I do not think none of us would enjoy or think every street random deaths for our PCs would enchance the gameplay enjoyment. Also, if a new PC would not survive 2 hours, then none can speak about realistic world since there is one million intelligent being is alive on Zalanthas.

In other words, I do not think increase of water need in cities is directly related with realisticity of the game, it is about our enjoyment.

What I think most important in the idea is, such a change would not reduce gameplay on the contrary increases it by giving people some more reason to feel the fight for life emotion.. which I think is something very important what makes ARM an excellent game.

As long as game is easy for PCs to survive, there would not be fight for resources and privileges. I like seeing pcs to feel the struggle for some positions and resources, like trying to enter a house, or some other clan because of lack of security and need of sources... Not recruiters trying to convience some nobody pcs to enter their clan.