We Don't Need Water In Magik Fairy Kingdom of Allanak

[Maybe42or54]

Alright. How will making Bynners drink more water help RP? People wont want to drop 300 coins of their starting coin to go into the byn with a garuntee of having to buy their own water also.

How will making any of the nobles or merchant/noble house employees drink more water help RP? They'll continue acting like its nothing.

How will making independants drink more water help RP? They will have to stay away from the cities just a little more, keeping them away from RPing with their peers.

If you want people to get thirsty more then they get hungry, I don't see how it is realistic, but fuck it. Alright.

[Maybe42or54]

Oh and one more thing I keep forgetting.
Will there be more RP then this, or will it just happen a lot more?

The tall, black man opens his large leather knapsack.

The tall, black man get a leather waterskin from his large leather knasack.

The tall, black man drinks water from his leather waterskin.

The tall, black man drinks water from his leather waterskin.

The tall, black man drinks water from his leather waterskin.

The tall, black man drinks water from his leather waterskin.

The tall, black man puts a leather waterskin into his large leather knapsack.

The tall, black man closes his large leather knapsack.

[Seeker]

I favor Rindan's position.

Adressing Sanvean's comment about the newbie learning curve, I believe that learning how to properly handle water and dehydration probably should be one of the first things that a new player learns in Armageddon, actually.  Those dessicated corpses in front of the Dragon Temple should MEAN something.

I see it as a vital component in the "grittiness and harshness" discussions that have come up from time to time, and also being part of the "clan vs. independent" arguments for all the reasons already mentioned above.

The essential argument, that every player everywhere in the gameworld should have water as a vital concern, is one I agree with.

Seeker

[Rindan]

The silly portion of all these arguments is the level of hyperbola used to push thier particular point of view. Silly is the comment that it is possible to live 4 IG days without taking a single drink.  

I am not using hyperbola in the slightest.  I meant literally what I said.  I have a city bound character.  He doesn't drink.  Take a character, drink until you get a message about being full, load up on travel cakes, then go lay down in the bazaar.  Unless my character is horribly bugged, you will never ever get thirsty.  Yes, you can literally sit there for real life days and Zalanthas years without getting thirsty.

My observations of the thirst code cities are as follows.  If you are near being thirsty and inside of the city, you will eventually get thirst.  If you are inside of a city and full on water, your thirst levels NEVER reduce.

Alright. How will making Bynners drink more water help RP? People wont want to drop 300 coins of their starting coin to go into the byn with a grantee of having to buy their own water also.

Tweak a single number in the stew upping the water content of the stew and you won't notice.

How will making any of the nobles or merchant/noble house employees drink more water help RP? They'll continue acting like its nothing.

As they should.  That is the point of being rich.  That is why people join those organizations.  I bet noble house workers would be much more inclined to appreciate the life of luxury they have each and every time they get a drink for free from their organization.

Will there be more RP then this, or will it just happen a lot more?
Insert some spam here.

Wow, that guy was thirsty.

How will it add more RP?  'rinthers, criminals, commoners, and other city bound people that don't have a cushy job will notice.  Those with cushy jobs will notice when they constantly rely on their employer for water.

The RP for the struggle to get enough to drink is one of the core aspects of the game.  RP galore can spawn from it.  You have a 'rinther.  You can't get a normal job and the militia are after you.  You scourge here and there, but you 'sid reserve is getting thinner and thinner.  You are getting thirstier and thirstier.  Finally, you actually getting desperate as death is starting to look imminent.  You head into the local 'rinth pub desperate because you know that you are fast running out of time.  An elf notices your state of distress and takes a seat next to you.  He says he will provide you with water... but if he does, you owe him a little favor...

If you want people to get thirsty more then they get hungry, I don't see how it is realistic, but fuck it. Alright.

As more then one person has argued (yourself included), fuck realism.  If we are going to throw realism to the wind, we might as well throw it to the wind such that it reinforces the theme of the game in the very least.

[Agent_137]

i'm pretty sure playability beats realism in this one, for all the reasons mentioned.

[Maybe42or54]

Oh and on the note of Adding to RP.

If we are going to tweak thirst and whatnot, I think you should be able to go longer at each stage of "thirst," instead of getting hit with a more and more intense one, and then in a couple IG hours, you go from thirsty to not being able to move.

[bloodfromstone]

I think that's a good idea over all, Maybe42or54. It always seemed kind of funny to me to be like "Hmm, I'm thirsty, better get a drink." and by the time you pull open your waterskin you're already dehydrated. I'd like to get "You are thirsty." at least a few IC hours before you actually start getting penalized for it.

[amoeba]

I favor Rindan's position.

Adressing Sanvean's comment about the newbie learning curve, I believe that learning how to properly handle water and dehydration probably should be one of the first things that a new player learns in Armageddon, actually.  Those dessicated corpses in front of the Dragon Temple should MEAN something.

I see it as a vital component in the "grittiness and harshness" discussions that have come up from time to time, and also being part of the "clan vs. independent" arguments for all the reasons already mentioned above.

The essential argument, that every player everywhere in the gameworld should have water as a vital concern, is one I agree with.

Seeker

Favoring harshness is not the entire equation.  Yes, water should be more vital.  Yes a vivudian with unlimited resources should be able to have that ability to mean something.  Yes there should be a struggle to meet resources.  The problem is how.  Taking a simplistic approach of simply make the rates go up discounts the levels of dependency.  I also strongly dislike using exaggerated data to back up an argument.  

There are factors that should be taken into account. One of these is the playability concern  Especially for those trying to acclimate themselves to the game. Not everyone learns at the same pace, your expectations my be colored by your own skills and experience. It is something that can not be discounted, unless you like less players.  Personally what I would like to see, but I'm not sure if it is codeable is a sliding needs scale for want of a better word.  That is your first few characters will dehydrate slower than later ones.   This gives them time to learn syntax, game structure, and basic knowledge of the game before having to deal with the full consequences of the "grittiness" of the place.

Another concern is economics. Making dehydration quicker, but decreasing the price for water is counterintuitive.  Then you are just making it a less scarce resource.  Where is the roleplay in that,  you just defeated your intent.  IMHO there should be a much higher dependence on black market sources of water. Do we make it nearly impossible for someone to make a living on mining and spice gathering?   Maybe that is something we want to do, maybe not, but it is part of the discussion.  Unintended consequences happen when you tweak the economy.  Remember the week that the mud did not reboot on one Saturday.  The economy got seriously mucked up because the shops did not empty.  I saw it nearly impossible to sell items in shops, so people were leaving animal parts everywhere.  The upside is I saw a lot more raiding.  The point is, think before you leap.  

In parting I don't mind an honest discussion about this stuff.  But look at all the implications. You want a grittier atmosphere?  Of course, but harder to live -in and of itself- does not necessarily do this.  So framing it this way.  How do we make water a more treasured resource and -still- deal with the resulting fallout?  My opinion, simply increasing the dehydration rate doesn't cut it.  It won't give you that end result you desire.

[X-D]

I think Rindan's char is buggy.

I've played city half-giants and filled up with water and, without ever leaving the city still got thirsty. And half-giants have a much larger capacity then other races.

I also notice, that with my -city- clanned chars, how often that barracks barrel of water needs to be filled, even when there are only a few pc's in the clan who rarely, if ever leave the city.

I really don't see how it would enhance the game in any way to up thirst in cities, but I'm sure, if you think its right for your char that the staff would be more then happy to up your thirst ticker or decrease capacity or something. If you ask...might not even need to say pretty please.

[LoD]

In reference to Sanvean's comment about the learning curve being set a bit too high for new players should the thirst requirement be elevated, I completely agree.  There are so many other aspects of this game to be experienced and observed without having to be bothered by ensuring you've enough water to make it down a city road.  This wouldn't make the game more harsh and it wouldn't improve the atmposhere of the MUD.  It would create a money sink for experienced players and potentially drive newer players away.

There's a reason why you don't see MUD advertisements such as:

"Packed with realistic eating/drinking algorithms for ultimate harshness!"
"Forget PC interaction, battle the intangible enemies of thirst and hunger!"

Perhaps there are those that do, but I just don't enjoy managing hunger and thirst past a certain point because the whole reason I play this game is to interact with other players.  I purchase water from NPC's or obtain them from objects found in the game.  Most people do.  Increasing the need to obtain more water so that we can interact even more with these NPC's and objects doesn't seem like it will improve the atmosphere.  It will only force people to leave their RP to go fill their waterskin or drink before returning to what they were doing in the first place.

The very implementation of thirst and hunger (in any MUD) should serve as a reminder to players that they are real people who eat, drink, go the bathroom and sleep.  This reminder allows for use of cooking, crafting, alcohol and other products to be used in the game as props and RP tools while they play out their roles with the other players.

As Praetorian pointed out earlier, which I also agree with, no one is forcing you to adhere to the coded messages telling you when you are thirsty or hungry.  If you want to RP that out - then do so.  But the amount of "atmosphere" attainable by forcing people to purchase more water, drink more often and carry more water just doesn't seem to be equal to the rewards of a system that treats thirst in a desert world as an occasional reminder of its necessity rather than a constant demand for consumption.

-LoD

[Larrath]

I think that people are exaggerating the downsides of this.
Let's see:

First of all, newbies:
New characters could enter the game with a small waterskin, and be immune to thirst for the first five RL hours.  This is more than enough time to ask where water is.  If a new player has had zero interaction in five hours of playtime, they probably won't stick around no matter what.
Given these two small measures, I don't see how this would affect the learning curve at all.

With this out of the way - nobody is proposing to make Allanak's streets as dehydrating as the Salt Flats.  We are proposing to make them somewhat dehydrating, in order to make people need to drink more.  We'd also like taverns and other indoor locations to be slightly dehydrating, so people can't sit there for three days and not drink once.
We're not saying that a character should start suffering from thirst if they haven't had a drink in two game hours.
However, a character should need to sip a little water at least once a day.

This makes water more valuable, which it should be because good water is difficult to come by in Zalanthas.  The majority of the Known World is one giant, dead wasteland.  People should struggle for water.
This also makes Vivaduans much more useful to everyone, and get people to give them more of the respect they deserve.
A Vivaduan can fill a barrel of water in a number of seconds.  This is every bit as incredible as (and often more important than) a Krathi that slings giant fireballs.

If you want to keep throwing the 'Playability vs. Realism' card, well, why don't we get rid of hunger and thirst completely?  Let the VNPCs worry about that.  When I play a 'rinthi, my PC's most realistic concern should be water; hunger doesn't kill anywhere near as fast as thirst does.

[LoD]

We are proposing to make them somewhat dehydrating, in order to make people need to drink more.  We'd also like taverns and other indoor locations to be slightly dehydrating, so people can't sit there for three days and not drink once. We're not saying that a character should start suffering from thirst if they haven't had a drink in two game hours.
However, a character should need to sip a little water at least once a day.

Why?  Is it really going to create a richer environment and atmosphere?  Does the action really make for a better scene?

Forcing people to take out a waterskin and drink more often isn't the solution to this problem.  If you really wanted to add more atmosphere to the game, why don't you focus on something that makes people more aware of WHY they should be drinking rather than force them to complete the mindless action.

I'd much rather see a random chance for you to receive one of 25 thirst messages when you move below a certain thirst level to had atmosphere than to have the code force me to drink.  That would actually remind people that it's a desert world, that they might be thirsty more often than an hour before complete dehydration.

Right now people see wait until they see, "You are thirsty." and then:

>open pack
>take skin pack
>drink skin
>!
>!
>!
You are not thirsty.
>put skin pack
>close pack

Instead, present the players with a simple, but more developed model for conveying their level of thirst.   Perhaps every time their thirst "meter" ticks down, they have a 25% chance of receiving a random message:

Your mouth feels dry.
You force a dry swallow.
Your tongue moves over your dry lips.
Gritty sand crunches between teeth in your dry mouth.
Did I just swallow a bug?  Drink, dude, that's nasty!

Give the players a -reason- to focus upon the atmosphere.  The best solution will always be as a result of communication, not frequency.

-LoD

[Kalden]

I can't spend 50% of my time heading to the temple or wherever.

Besides, I'd be dead in less than IC week if this happened. Heh. Annoying.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I think that people are exaggerating the downsides of this.

Uh no. I imagine you're playing someone with an unlimited supply of water/coin, like 90% of you people (clanned). I'm not. I can honestly say I'd be dead within an IC week or two. That is, unless I killed a few of you first.

[Larrath]

We are proposing to make them somewhat dehydrating, in order to make people need to drink more.  We'd also like taverns and other indoor locations to be slightly dehydrating, so people can't sit there for three days and not drink once. We're not saying that a character should start suffering from thirst if they haven't had a drink in two game hours.
However, a character should need to sip a little water at least once a day.

Why?  Is it really going to create a richer environment and atmosphere?  Does the action really make for a better scene?

Yes, this maintains the atmosphere because it reminds people that water is the most important thing in Zalanthas, and not food.  It will make independents and raiders worry about water, and it will make Vivaduans more desirable, as well as allow them to work as water-sellers.

I'd much rather see a random chance for you to receive one of 25 thirst messages when you move below a certain thirst level to had atmosphere than to have the code force me to drink.  That would actually remind people that it's a desert world, that they might be thirsty more often than an hour before complete dehydration.

Simply putting more messages and not changing the frequency one needs to drink doesn't matter much, in my opinion.  Think about the Way - you get a nice message (a foreign presence contacts your mind.), but I doubt anyone gets anything special from that message alone after they become used to it.  If there were more messages in circulation (your ears tingle as someone enters your head), I don't think there would be a difference.

Give the players a -reason- to focus upon the atmosphere.  The best solution will always be as a result of communication, not frequency.

Arm isn't all atmosphere.  That's why we can't pick as many skills as we like on character generation, and why instant death is such a real threat.  There is a balance, and right now I believe the answer is to make thirst more common.

[EvilRoeSlade]

All of these arguements seem to be based on the assumption that Rindan is suggesting the game be made unplayable.  That is why all of these arguements opposed to an adjustment to the thirst code are flawed.

A moderate increase in thirst rates coupled with a slight to moderate reduction of hunger rates would be just the thing to make water a resource as valuable as its prohibitive price indicates, as well as remind everyone that they are in a harsh desert atmosphere.

What we are looking at is a spectrum.  On one end of the spectrum, players would never have to eat or drink unless they wanted to for role-play purposes.  Starvation or dehydration would never threaten the life of a character under any circumstances.

On the other end of the spectrum, players would have to eat and drink as much as they presumably would have to in real life.

As far as food is concerned, we are probably near the middle of this spectrum, possibly a little closer to the RL simulation end.  I wouldn't mind a reduction here, since I can attest that an independent character in the Magick Fairy Kingdom of Allanak will be spending quite a bit of time eating food, cooking food, and performing monotonous tasks that will eventually result in food.

Looking at water, I am not certain that Rindan is right about never have to drink if your character is saturated to a certain point.  I am not sure that he is wrong either.

But I've actually taken the time to calculate how much my current city-based character has spent on food, versus how much they have spent on water.  The results were surprising.  For every coin I have spent on water, I have spent more than ten coins on food.

Considering this information, I would suggest that water could stand to be notched up a little on the spectrum we're looking at.  It should be a calculated adjustment not designed to ruin playability.

Perhaps there are those that do, but I just don't enjoy managing hunger and thirst past a certain point because the whole reason I play this game is to interact with other players. I purchase water from NPC's or obtain them from objects found in the game. Most people do. Increasing the need to obtain more water so that we can interact even more with these NPC's and objects doesn't seem like it will improve the atmosphere. It will only force people to leave their RP to go fill their waterskin or drink before returning to what they were doing in the first place.

That's an interesting arguement.  However, I think that increasing the need for water should in fact decrease the reliance on NPCs for the water needs of characters.

When you need to spend 70 coins to buy water from an NPC, but an eldritch vividuan or a gritty ranger is offering you a skin for 30 sid (or even better, offering it in exchange for a favor) then PCs will be considerably more likely to rely on other PCs for their water needs then to buy water from NPC robots.

[amoeba]

When you need to spend 70 coins to buy water from an NPC, but an eldritch vividuan or a gritty ranger is offering you a skin for 30 sid (or even better, offering it in exchange for a favor) then PCs will be considerably more likely to rely on other PCs for their water needs then to buy water from NPC robots.

Provided this happens.  Lets call it the "field of dreams" effect, "build it and they will come".  If this were a certianty that would be great.  This assumes that there will be alternative sources of supply.  Similar situations exist in other corners of the game, a good example is the Byn.  This can be a great clan, lots of interactions, great place to get your foot into roleplay...provided there is a sergeant availible.  

The role of alternative water sources is also  exaserbaited by the fact that its very nature is covert.  The more experienced will know how to navigate those waters (pardon the pun), the others: newbies, off-peak players, etc. will be at a distinct disadvantage in this scheme.  

Not being able to get into the byn or having nothing to do once you are in there because of a lack of sergeants is one thing.  Dying to a coded effect because there are not alternative sources of water availiable, coupled with the demands of increasing the rate of dehydration to the level that would drive people to alternative sources isn't the kind of roleplay I would like to see.

It is not that it is not a decent enough of an idea, it's simply that the approach is too blunt.  With more players, I see this as quite viable.  I see problems with it at the level of playership at the moment.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Not being able to get into the byn or having nothing to do once you are in there because of a lack of sergeants is one thing.  Dying to a coded effect because there are not alternative sources of water availiable, coupled with the demands of increasing the rate of dehydration to the level that would drive people to alternative sources isn't the kind of roleplay I would like to see.

No one is suggesting making the available coded sources unviable.  I'm simply pointing out that if water was more than one-tenth as worrisome as food is, then maybe people would occasionally begin to investigate these alternate sources in the first place.

I'm not saying drive people to an alternate source as you put it.  I'm saying to provide an incentive to investigate these sources in the first place.

[Maybe42or54]

On a scale on 1 to 50. Rindan, please tell me where you'd like to place Allanaks level in comparison with Tuluk's, the salt flats, luirs, red storm, and the southern desert.

This might help me see what you want.

[Rindan]

On a scale on 1 to 50. Rindan, please tell me where you'd like to place Allanaks level in comparison with Tuluk's, the salt flats, luirs, red storm, and the southern desert.

This might help me see what you want.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing water needs in a city be close to what they are in the Allanaki desert.  I personally don't recall having ever seen a character die of thirst or hunger in a city.  I think the harshness of people needing to spend money on water in a city is drastically overstated.  The only characters I have ever seen even close to starving in a city were people who had obviously junked everything they had, and then intentionally avoided getting 'sid from the piles of corpses scattered throughout the 'rinth.  I have never ever seen a completely city based character even close to dying of dehydration.

I personally don't like the cities being labeled as newbie zones, and the desert zones being only for the 3lit3 who can tolerate living in a desert.  I also don't like the assumption that the only people in the game are in rich clans, Byn, or independent hunters.  Some people try and role play purely city based merchants, criminals, mercenaries, and city elves.

All of that said, I would be more then happy if the time it takes to get thirsty was a little longer then how long it takes to get hungry right now.  Then, I would like to see the time it takes to get hungry be double what it is now.  

Basically, the one thing I REALLY want is for water to be needed more then food.   Make it take longer to get hungry for all I care, just make it so that my 'rinther worries more about getting even vaguely clean water more then food.  Having the thirst rates cranked up close to that of a desert would get my rocks off, but simply switching food and water needs would make me happy enough.

[Maybe42or54]

On the topic, switch food for water. I like it. I don't know why and it doesn't make sense. It'll suck, sure.

But in order for it to work. Other things will need to be fixed.
Make the T'zai Byn stew fill people up with water and food quicker. Instead of 10 bowls to fill up, make it 3 or 4.

Make food in general fill you up faster. I can't eat two potatoes IRL without being full. IG, I have to eat about 15 or so tubers.

Extend the amount of time you can be thirsty. Instead of three hours IG, you get a message every hour or something. Instead of going from not thirsty to dead in 4 IG hours, make it 12 hours. 6 if you are in the desert.

And a few others. Water costs to much to make it extremely valueable, and make others so dependant on it.

I remember reading that most citizens make less than 2 small a year.
That is three waterskins of water a year. Not to mention food.

[valakas]

Okay ill keep this short and simple... the water thing should not change for a few reasons...

1.Ever think that the world of things would have become accustomed to the desert world and not be as effected by it as a normal human that lives today in our world.
2.I think on page 1 of this someone said the desert is hot... and dry well it gets cold too so go test this out...go outside to a desert at night in normal cloths like a NPC or PC with just normal cloths and see if you can think of being thirsty when your ice cold.
3.Don't blame me if theres somthing wrong just like...don't think about it unless its somthing completly retarded then and only then CHANGE IT...to somthing better not just another thing.

[Larrath]

The Known World does not become ice cold at night.
It becomes, at the very coolest, chilly enough that some people would put on a sweater.

Zalanthas has nine hours each day, only two of which are actually night.  It does not cool that much, though some Zalanthans might think it's cold - of course, most Zalanthans also wear very long and thick clothes as it is.

[Anonymous]

I'll summarize this awful cascade of posts for those of you just tuning in:

Purpose: To increase the rate of dehydration within each respective polis.
Argument: Realism.
Counterargument: Too much Realism (playability).

Solution: It is quite amusing that countless exhaustively express themselves in such a colossal quantity, and yet hardly anyone emotes beyond: So-and-so puckers him lips.

...So it's not a solution, but it's certainly a derailment.

I find that placing the displayed effort into sincere role-play will result in an achievement much more beneficial than an adjustment to the code.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Cenghiz]

I've seen way too many people who licked their cracked lips )

Anyway, as a last thing to note, I'm really OK with the idea to make hunger less of an issue a bit and to make the thirst more of an issue a bit.
As many said above, I, too have spent 10 coins for food for every coin I spend for water. (Red Storm is an exception)
It's hard for a newbie player to learn he can cook himself in the city, find the grocer, come back in the morning if it's night, buy some flour, cook the flour into travel cakes and satiate his hunger.
Finding cheap food is even harder than finding where water can be sold. And I remember, with my new characters I always had enough water, but a few characters starved. Not starved to death, but it was my nightmare seeing the words: "You are famished."
So if a change is needed -and I guess it may be fine to reform the atmosphere- the rate of hunger can be decreased and the rate of thirst can be increased.
Now I'm gone to check with a customer for whom I wrote a program about industrial gears. I wish I can clear my mind and don't tell him 'steel? obsidian is way cheaper."

[valakas]

If you have seen my post above.

4.To much realism is bad... and ill tell you way some people when they play games they are trying to relax, and some its okay becuse they are serious when they play a game so what I mean is if you make it to real people will not like it at much or some would so basicly keep it the same for the people that would not like more realism so they would still play more people is better... and for the guys and girls that want more realism theres enough in the world our charactors call home.