We Don't Need Water In Magik Fairy Kingdom of Allanak

[Rindan]

We Don't Need Water In Magik Fairy Kingdom of Allanak

Live in Luir's outpost for a RL week, then live in Allanak for a RL week.  What will you notice besides one has more Kuraci then the other?  In Luir's, water eats a solid hunk of your budget.  In Allanak, water is a complete non-issue.  What do 'rinthers kill each other over?  Food, not water.  This isn't how it should be.

Why is water more important in Luir's?  In Luir's, all of the outdoor areas are treated like outdoor areas.  Namely, you dehydrate as you wander the markets and move between buildings.  In Allanak on the other hand, you simply don't need water so long as you never enter the desert.  Personally, I think this warps the reality of the game.  The reality of the game is that you can live off of very little food.  Starving to death takes a damn long time.  Dehydration on the other hand kills quickly and should be the driving force behind the desperate acts of criminals.  Water should have a profound meaning, even in Allanak.  Just because you are in a city doesn't mean that Suk-Krath has stopped taking an interest in you.

I believe that all non-shaded city rooms in Allanak and the 'rinth should be treated like they are open desert for dehydration rate purposes.  If you want to avoid dehydration, stay inside during high sun.  Few things sap the reality of the game like going two months without having bothered to drink.  The top of every 'rinthers mind shouldn't be food, it should be water.  Remind people that Allanak is in the middle of a desert and that Zalanthas is a desert world.  Make outdoor rooms inside of city outdoor rooms.  Even city elves should have to drink.

[Larrath]

I'd like to see dehydration rate become somewhat faster in Allanak and Red Storm, but treating an Allanaki street as open desert is going a little far.
It also sounds like Luir's could also use a bit of fixing.

Either way, if desert dehydration rate was 5 and city dehydration rate was 1, I'd like to see Luir's at 3 (not being in the arid south), and Allanak and Red Storm at 4.  The 'rinth, being full of alleys, is probably also full of shadows, so I'm not sure how much one should dehydrate in there.  3 or 2, I suppose.

Allanak and Red Storm are still not open to those dry desert winds.

[Cuusardo]

I think it is a pretty good idea to dehydrate a little faster out in the streets of Allanak.  There aren't a whole lot of shaded areas around unless you go into an alley or something, so you're exposed to the hot sun, and some of the brunt of wind and the sands they kick up.

[Scarborough]

While the sun is certainly as hot in Allanak, there are more shadows cast by buildings, more opportunities to get under shelter, and a large wall around the city to stop much of the hot winds that would dehydrate, and a greater number of buildings in the city that would further break up winds.  There aren't any really tall buildings so there isn't any wind sheer being caught and channeled down into the streets.  It wouldn't make sense for the dyhydration rate to be the same in Allanak as it is in a smaller town.

[Rindan]

I think there should be a very simple standard.  Unless you are in a water filled cavern, at absolutely all times, WATER should be far more important then food.  You should be thirsty AT LEAST as often as you are hungry, even in a city.  Hell, even in a tavern.  Zalanthas is hot as hell.  Not only is it hot as hell, it is bone dry.  The fact that water is not a worry for your average city dweller but food is, is simply wrong.

Perhaps jacking up thirst rates to that of the Salt Flats in Allanak is a bit harsh, but at the very least, the absolute minimal amount of water needed should at least be equal to needs for food.  

In my opinion, it is role playing destroying to have a character live in Allanak and not need water for MONTHS, yet need to eat every single day.  Water should be what drives people with food being an afterthought, not the other way around.

[RunningMountain]

I disagree. You forget that Allanak has about a thousand people wearing black gems, and probably 3/10th of them help fuel the water around the city. It's a bitch to fill up large water sources too. Food is just as important as water is, especially when your city is surrounded by semi-ariable fields of sand and dirt.

Water is already rare enough. I agree that it shouldn't be buyable in taverns though, especially the labyrinth. Or if it is, it should be pretty expensive. To get water you should be forced to go to the templars or the vivadus. There is no natural water source in the city.

-RM

[EvilRoeSlade]

I've played in Allanak recently.  I think I had to eat a kalan fruit once, but that was about it.

Dehydration rates should be a lot more than they are now, definitely.

[Manhattan]

damn it, you wanna make our PC's piss poor?

[EvilRoeSlade]

damn it, you wanna make our PC's piss poor?

Hell yeah!

[Rindan]

I disagree. You forget that Allanak has about a thousand people wearing black gems, and probably 3/10th of them help fuel the water around the city. It's a bitch to fill up large water sources too. Food is just as important as water is, especially when your city is surrounded by semi-ariable fields of sand and dirt.

Water is already rare enough. I agree that it shouldn't be buyable in taverns though, especially the labyrinth. Or if it is, it should be pretty expensive. To get water you should be forced to go to the templars or the vivadus. There is no natural water source in the city.

-RM

Err, what on earth are you talking about?  I was talking about uping how quickly people get dehydrated in cities above zero.  I don't think anyone said anything about sources of water or anything to do with getting water in taverns.  

The issue is that city dwellers don't need to drink because they never get thirsty.  That is silly.

[Forest Junkie]

damn it, you wanna make our PC's piss poor?

Hell yeah!

*snicker*

Water in itself is not a commodity on Zalanthas currently. I think it should be. People should kill, rape, steal, and cheat for just a small gourd of this stuff. If raising timer on the rate of dehydration will help, so be it. Last I checked we -were- playing on a post-apocalyptic desert planet nearly void of any lush, arable lands or significant free water sources. People should be dying of thirst more often.

[RunningMountain]

Ah. No. Screw that, dehydration rate is high enough outside. Why do you think people live IN the city. There's shade, shelter. People don't just stand around outside in the heat. Even when they do their is going to be shade all over the city.

If the dehydration rate does get increased in the cities, you can go ahead and put the 'shade' code in every room, because just about every room is going to have shade somewhere.

-R

[Gaare]

Wow! Excellent Idea. Such a change for city rooms to somewhere between outside level and today's level would make a huge difference. More fight, more struggle... I liked it! Also, such a change would create a real difference between some nobody and a clanned person which IMHO is very good.

[Cale_Knight]

In my experience, the vast, vast majority of people who live inside cities do so in the employ of either noble houses or merchant houses. Those houses provide free and unlimited water as it is.

So the only people who would be more inconvencied by this are the ones who are coming in from the desert, where water is already scarce and and valuable.

[Maybe42or54]

Bynners, that have to walk from this side of the city to that side, will be affected.

Militia with their 50 'sid "recorded" paypouch, will be affected.

The water in merchant houses isn't unlimited, from my experience, if a Pc doesn't fill the barrels/cistern/what have you, there is no water.
Leaving some 'sidless hunter S.O.L.

An idea though if Dehydration was raised.
The Suk-krath goes around the planet right?

Shade acts like shade in RL?
It moves around from one side of a building to the next.

[Gaare]

Those above are all good ... right? Byn mercenaries will try to find something to fill their skin, the militia will search for ways of coin... All positive if you ask me.. And oh.. sidless hunter will try to join a clan, a noble or merchant house... not recruiters will try to convience a random human to take into their clan.. That again seems good to me.

Also, I doubt buildings in the cities are high to give shade. I guess there are only a handful of buildings which have their third floor. (Ignoring house compounds and estates)

Edit: Editted to add.

[Rindan]

Ah. No. Screw that, dehydration rate is high enough outside. Why do you think people live IN the city. There's shade, shelter. People don't just stand around outside in the heat. Even when they do their is going to be shade all over the city.

If the dehydration rate does get increased in the cities, you can go ahead and put the 'shade' code in every room, because just about every room is going to have shade somewhere.

I live in a city.  I live in a cold and dark New England city by the ocean with high humidity.  During the winter when the days are short, I some times forget what the sun looks like.  I still drink water every single day.  People in the city should have to drink water.  Period.  Water should be a more pressing concern then food.  It is damn hot and there is no humidity no matter where you go.  At best, you can go inside and it will be less hot because Suk-Krath is not beating you over the head constantly.  You still are going to get thirsty very quickly.  You are still in a dry hot as hell desert, even when inside.  Literally going IC YEARS without having to drink is simply insane.

Militia with their 50 'sid "recorded" paypouch, will be affected.

About frigging time.  If the militia would have to struggle a little to make ends meat they might actually be susceptible to a little corruption.  Tek forbid they have expenses that might slow down their acquisition of a full suit of Silt Horror armor.

The water in merchant houses isn't unlimited, from my experience, if a Pc doesn't fill the barrels/cistern/what have you, there is no water.

Kurac seems to manage just fine, and as has already been noted, Luir's is a place where thirst rates DO work properly.

Leaving some 'sidless hunter S.O.L.

Are you listing this as a down side?  You mean hunters might have to struggle a little bit?  Awesome.

An idea though if Dehydration was raised.
The Suk-krath goes around the planet right?

Sure, I wouldn't mind if some parts of the city were considered shaded.  Main streets shouldn't be shaded, but some places might have a few overhands and what not that are considered shaded areas.  Of course, you should dehydrate even in shaded areas.  Hell, you should dehydrate even while sitting in a tavern.  Unless you are swimming in a big pool of water, there isn't a single place in the world where you shouldn't be dehydrating.

Shade acts like shade in RL?
It moves around from one side of a building to the next.

I agree.  Shaded should act like shade in RL.  If it is 140 F or 60 C and you are in the shade, you bet your ass that you are still dehydrating like mad.  You will be dehydrating slower then if out in the sun directly, but you better believe you are going to be getting damn thirsty.

I think there is a very simple rule of thumb that needs to be applied.  If at any time your thirst rate is slower then your starvation rate, unless there is magik involved, something is horribly wrong.  Water should be concern number one at all times, NOT food.

[Delirium]

It also sounds like Luir's could also use a bit of fixing.

Hell no.  The dehydration rates are just about perfect.  Bad enough that you always have to make sure you have some water with you so you don't get caught out, but not so harsh as to be unplayable or overly inconvenient.  

Most people are fairly unimpressed that they get access to free, clean water in clan compounds.  I personally find this a bit ridiculous.  Food should be and is cheaper and easier to get than water, but water should be more IMPORTANT.  Absolutely, totally agree with Rindan's point, there.  

One of my favorite parts of playing a wastelander is how much water factors into everything I do.  Where I go, I have to make sure I have enough water to last me the trip, where I stop, I try to do it in a place where I can gather or aquire water, when I hunt, I stop and look around for more water, and constantly drink gulps here and there to keep myself from getting thirsty - when you live soley out in the wastes, it's of huge importance.  Often most of the weight you carry is in water.

When you're in the city, that importance should diminish only a little bit, due to the nearness of several places where you can buy water.  As it is, it becomes nearly a non-issue and food becomes the main problem.  Water isn't as difficult to find in the city as it is out in the wastes, but it can be almost as difficult to aquire (i.e. having the money for it), and being able to have access to free, clean, and relatively fresh water in a clan compound should be seen as something hugely beneficial, not just "oh, that's nice.. but I still want 500 sid a month and a full suit of armor."

[RunningMountain]

Rindan where are you getting these facts that PCs can go IC years without taking a drink of water. You're insane.

[Cuusardo]

Not all clans have an unlimited water supply.  I happened to be part of a certain clan that did have unlimited water at first, and a change was made to make it so that this was no longer true.  A lot of people complained about it, mostly ICly, but OOCly I felt that it was making things more realistic.  If the tun in the barracks went dry before the time for the alloted ration to be given, it was up to the PCs to refill it.  Much stricter guidelines were put into place as far as for taking water from the barracks.  I'm sure not every clan is like this, but I happen to like the change that was put into effect.  It makes it much more realistic, and added to this harshness that people have a love/hate relationship with.

[Forest Junkie]

If the tun in the barracks went dry before the time for the alloted ration to be given, it was up to the PCs to refill it.

Very true.

[Rindan]

Rindan where are you getting these facts that PCs can go IC years without taking a drink of water. You're insane.

My current PC is a city dweller.  From creation, he never once had to drink until IC years later when I finally had him leave Allanak briefly.  No, he doesn't eat anything with water in it.  Any 'rinther can tell you that this is true.  If you never leave the city, you will never get thirsty.

The cities are wildly unrealistic when it comes to dehydration rates, pure and simple.  I don't think anyone can even begin to argue otherwise with a straight face.  People should get thirsty in cities.  Hell, sitting at my computer I am getting thirsty and it is a nice cool 70 F in my house.

[amoeba]

Rindan where are you getting these facts that PCs can go IC years without taking a drink of water. You're insane.

My current PC is a city dweller.  From creation, he never once had to drink until IC years later when I finally had him leave Allanak briefly.  No, he doesn't eat anything with water in it.  Any 'rinther can tell you that this is true.  If you never leave the city, you will never get thirsty.

The cities are wildly unrealistic when it comes to dehydration rates, pure and simple.  I don't think anyone can even begin to argue otherwise with a straight face.  People should get thirsty in cities.  Hell, sitting at my computer I am getting thirsty and it is a nice cool 70 F in my house.

IC years is an unrealistic measure, number of days of playtime is more accurate. Also if you spent much of that time "drinking" in bars, your deyhdration would not happen at the same level.  It has been my experience that it is indeed quite possible to get dehydrated in the city quite easily.

[Packersfan]

If these are the type of changes that you like, I propose the following to make the game more realstic:

1) When you are hit in the neck or head, your character has a chance of never being able to speak again.
2) The occasional freshly-created character will be mentally retarded, as is true in real life.
3) Your character, no matter how long-lived, will occasionally catch a disease and die, as is in real life.
4) Sometimes, random pieces of architecture will collapse upon your character, killing them, as is in real life.
5) Sometimes your mount, its brain being eaten away with disease, will throw you from its back and trample you to death, as is in real life.

If you want to start being as real as possible so new characters can't survive for longer then 2 minutes, then let's add all of these features to the game to make it more 'real'. Essentially, my point is Allanak is a major city which is far more blocked off from the elements then Luir's is. Furthermore, this difference in dehydration rate could be that your character has obtained water in such a massive city while you are quit out. Or, it could be the fact that water in a massive city such as Allanak is of a purer quality with less sediments in it. There could be so many explanations for this I don't have time to get into them all. I am fully against making it harder for new characters to survive then it already is. We need to get more people to play this game, and this is certainly not how to go about doing so.

[Gaare]

Making game non-playable is something, a bit more harsh is something else. I do not think none of us would enjoy or think every street random deaths for our PCs would enchance the gameplay enjoyment. Also, if a new PC would not survive 2 hours, then none can speak about realistic world since there is one million intelligent being is alive on Zalanthas.

In other words, I do not think increase of water need in cities is directly related with realisticity of the game, it is about our enjoyment.

What I think most important in the idea is, such a change would not reduce gameplay on the contrary increases it by giving people some more reason to feel the fight for life emotion.. which I think is something very important what makes ARM an excellent game.

As long as game is easy for PCs to survive, there would not be fight for resources and privileges. I like seeing pcs to feel the struggle for some positions and resources, like trying to enter a house, or some other clan because of lack of security and need of sources... Not recruiters trying to convience some nobody pcs to enter their clan.

[picklehead]

Rindan's the man. Bring on the dehydration! Getting thirsty a bit faster isn't going to make it impossible for city-dwellers and new characters to survive. Water's supposed to be a scarce commodity that people should need to consume as often as food, regardless of where they are in the world. The city doesn't have central air. Even in the shade it's likely to be pretty damn hot.

[Larrath]

It's a while until new characters need to eat and drink for the first time.  A few RL hours at least.

Allanak may be larger than Luir's (if that somehow helps at all), and has buildings with shade and what-not, but it's also in the middle of the South.  Allanak is substantially hotter than Luir's.

I really do like this new approach; the problem isn't that the world is too small, but rather that it's too easy to cross it on a kank without stopping to rest.  Reduce kanks, solve the problem.
Instead of making water increasingly expensive, making it more commonly needed by city-faring folk would not only make people appreciate (and pay more for) it, but they'd also need to worry about it more often.
Drinking a 90 'sid worth of water from your waterskin and then forgetting you have to drink for a couple of RL days is a bit heavy on the purse, but light on the immersion.

And four hours are ample time for a new player to find the Temple of the Dragon, ask a PC where he can buy some water, or contact a Helper/post on the boards and ask.

Water needs to worry people.

[Maybe42or54]

The water in merchant houses isn't unlimited, from my experience, if a Pc doesn't fill the barrels/cistern/what have you, there is no water.

Kurac seems to manage just fine, and as has already been noted, Luir's is a place where thirst rates DO work properly.

Kurac. They seem to always have a leader also. I was talking more along the lines of Kadius, Salarr (I don't know if Salarr still has those barrels and tuns).

Leaving some 'sidless hunter S.O.L.

Are you listing this as a down side?  You mean hunters might have to struggle a little bit?  Awesome.

I am listing it as a downside. If a Kadian leader Pc, or Salarr leader Pc isn't around, and there is a shortage of Rich ass Hunters, and you log on and do some hunting and drink your water, then go back to town, then end up needing more water as you walk through the town, then end up in your compound dieing of thirst to find out the water barrels are empty and you are too poor to buy some and there is no leader Pc around, then you are fucked. And die, or go do something you OOCly know to get some quick 'sid, or do something your Pc probably wouldn't do, so you can log off and not feel like a twink for logging off thirsty.
Which would save your life.
And hell, I bet I'd see more and more of those spam hunters. Their excuse? Have to pay for water. They'd have an excuse. If I played my hunter that only hunted when he had to, I'd have to play a twink hunter just to survive, because I had poor endurance. I got thirsty every other IG day, sitting in town, as it is.

Shade acts like shade in RL?
It moves around from one side of a building to the next.

I agree.  Shaded should act like shade in RL.  If it is 140 F or 60 C and you are in the shade, you bet your ass that you are still dehydrating like mad.  You will be dehydrating slower then if out in the sun directly, but you better believe you are going to be getting damn thirsty.

Until then, I'm not in favor of this.

I think there is a very simple rule of thumb that needs to be applied.  If at any time your thirst rate is slower then your starvation rate, unless there is magik involved, something is horribly wrong.  Water should be concern number one at all times, NOT food.

Then tweak them. Not make one drastically higher then the other just because Luir's has it that way. Allanak is pretty damn tall. Depending on how Zalanthas orbits the sun and all that bullshit, It may be shady -most- of the day.

So, you are going to penalize the Byn Runner so much just for logging on 5 hours a day and loving Arm? And the sarge, who's Character is IG the same amount of time, wont have to buy water every damn day?

No. No thanks.

I don't agree that Red Storm should be a lot higher either. They may have hot winds, but do they ever see the sun down there?

[Jherlen]

I agree with all of this, but I also hear Maybe's point about clan water supplies having shortages. I don't want to have to drag a huge water barrel across Allanak from the merchant or noble quarters (which are WAY far away from the water seller) every single freaking RL day as a leader pc. It gets to be a huge chore.

I'd say... up the thirst rates, and then up the water rations given to clan compounds to compensate, and we'd be all good.

[bloodfromstone]

I heard one or two comments about how, in RL, you have to drink water every day. When you do become thirsty IG, you drink gallons of water, not mouthfuls. I'm sure this is to represent the amount of water consumed over a longer period of time. I, personally, don't want to have to feed my character three times a IG day, drink 8 glasses of water, and use the bathroom in between while I'm trying to play out a scene with someone.

As far as dehydration rates... It would be nice to see water be more of what it is made out to be. It's a thin line between making the game harsher and making it less fun, however. This water business could become a horrid chore, rather than a fun vessel for roleplaying. If dehydration levels do increase, I would suggest that new characters have a decent period of time before they start. Newbies dying on the streets while people laugh at them for asking where the Dragon Temple is (ICly, it should be obvious, after all) won't help our playerbase increase.

[X-D]

Myself, I think thirst is currently correct in game.
And I don't know how somebody has recently had any chars that lived IC years without drinking, even in the city, unless they have very low playtime or never leave the taverns or other buildings.

As it is, The cities represent sanctuary from the harsh deserts, thats why people stay in them...DUH.

Voted a big FAT NO on the poll.

There -should- be a marked difference between the horrid icky wilderness desert and the nice, reasonably safe, lawful (smirk) shady city.

Luirs does not compare, its an outpost, a glorified fort.

Also, to those who don't think there are tall buildings in nak, start reading descs, specialy the ones outside, Nak is full of towers and temples and other tall buildings. Also, why do they need to be tall to give shade? take a look at any RL city which has been around for a few hundred years, even if the building are only 1 or 2 stories, the roads are quite narrow, more like corridors, providing shade most the day.

[Anonymous]

The top of every 'rinthers mind shouldn't be food, it should be water.

I intend to disclose a description of the 'Rinth:

You are standing in the middle of a poverty-stricken alley, the
Highlord's chamberpot of human life.  All about you, piled against
dilapidated stone buildings, are piles of garbage, excrement, and the
occasional corpse -- or perhaps that's simply a sleeping child -- that
gather here.  The sky above, what is visible of its dome through the
blood-tinged air rank with foul scents, shines less brightly upon you, the
sun's rays blocked out by the tall cracked structures of crumbling red
stone, buildings which give this alley a claustrophobic feel, despite its
being quite wide.  

For, you see, life is not without mercy.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Ghost]

I would say, providing shade still does not make them so very preserving body water.  The air is dry in Zalanthas, unless it is an Oasis.

I think increasing the frequency of getting thirsty would be a huge penalty for outsiders.  Because it already is a pain for anyone stepping out, unless they are d-elves.

But I think making like:

Inside the buildings, caves, structures, tents, and a few unique places:  Fully Shaded.

Streets in the cities:  Moderately shaded.

Small outposts:  Little shaded (or moderately shaded)

Outside:  No shade.

...Could work?
And in storms, the thirst rate can be increased, I -think-.

Rinth can be considered as fully shaded or moderately shaded I think.  Either would work.

[Maybe42or54]

I don't know what you players are smoking, but I want some.
I live in the southwestern United States of America, and I only really get thirsty once a day and drink a couple glassess of water and I am fine. Even if I do work out in the sun a lot, being a "guard" at a construction sight is fun work.

Now, I play for maybe 2-4 hours a day, if at all, and my pc has to drink water every damn OOC day as it is. Yes it is a city dweller, and no I don't hunt like a freakin' speed addicted maniac, If I do it at all.

[Rindan]

I personally am baffled that there is even an argument over this.  Allanak is in a desert.  DESERT.  It reaches up to 140F or 60C.  The air is bone fucking dry.  Allanak exists for the singular reason that it is a place with walls that has water inside of it.  Allanak is NOT supposed to be a magical fairy land where people don't ever have to drink water.  That is in fact entirely counter to the game.  This is a desert world where survival has hard.  Water is SUPPOSED to be a valuable commodity.  For someone who never leaves the city, water is worth literally nothing.  I have a character who went over 4 days of play time, that is around 65 Zalanthas days of being logged in, who has never once drank.  That is wrong, pure and simple.

Second, shade does not prevent you from needing to drink.  Only in MUD land where shade offers -6 to thirst does shade prevent you from ever needing water.  Should shade slow down your need?  Sure.  Should it eliminate it?  Hell no.

Everyone is going to tear up about how harsh it would be if on a desert world where the temperature peaks at 160F drinking water would just be too much.  Okay, lets work under the assumption that making people drink in the desert world of Zalanthas would just be taking 'realism way too far' and make the game too harsh, then at the very least compromise.

If reality is going to be thrown to the wind, then at the very least, eating and drinking should be swapped.  People should never have to eat while inside a city because there is, um, shade and, um, people don't move around much in a city, so they really don't need to eat.  

There, now eating is gone as something to worry about, and it can be replaced with a need for food.  I personally would much rather Zalanthians never eat then have them never drink.  Water should have value in a city.  Water should have value everywhere.  It doesn't.  That is a role playing destroying quality.

[Packersfan]

140 degrees Fahrenheit is not the same to a Zalanthan as it is to us. I think you forget this. Have you taken into consideration that your character may be getting water while you are quit out, I mean Allanak is huge and who knows what can happen? Finally, I know that my characters in 'Nak always got thirsty, so I don't know what to tell you.

[Sanvean]

The main reason we don't do this is a playability issue.  The vast majority of new players start in the city and adding thirst issues to the panoply of new things they must learn to overcome creates (imo) too high a barrier.

[path]

I also think it should be coded that, if you kill someone, you can drink their blood to rehydrate. The Donner party would agree with me.

[Rindan]

The main reason we don't do this is a playability issue.  The vast majority of new players start in the city and adding thirst issues to the panoply of new things they must learn to overcome creates (imo) too high a barrier.

I understand your reasoning, but I don't believe that the cities should be treated as one giant newbie zone.  I would rather have food needs be dropped to almost nothing for playabilities sake then water.  Newbie still need to eat, but they don't need to drink.  It would be MUCH better to reverse those if you really insist upon affecting the rates of an entire zone for newbie friendliness.

Hell, even better, throw in a filled waterskin for newbie starting equipment, a pile of water filled food, and turn off their ability to dehydrate for a few hours.  Drop the price of water, lower the price of food, do take whatever measure is felt needed to protect newbies, but making it so that you don't need to drink at all is easily absolute LAST measure I would take.  

It is a MASSIVE breach of the game's atmosphere for people to literally live their entire lives without ever needing a drink on a desert world.  It wildly skews the game so that city dwellers, especially poor city dwellers, are always worried about food, but never water.  Sure, food should be an issue in the 'rinth, but an even BIGGER issue should be water.

Hunters and Borsail aids might not appreciate what sort of effect this has on the game, but criminal, city dwellers, poor, and people who are not in RPing rich organizations do.  It seems like mangling the atmosphere for a part of the game that is already marginalized by its lack of staff supported organizations just to help newbies is a skewed way of dealing with the problem.  Declaring the entire city a newbie zone when it comes to dehydration rates seems like an overly extreme step when other newbie friendly options are still available.  

Make it so that newbies don't need water for the first 6 hours of play and load their starting equipment with water.  Whatever you do, please don't mangle the atmosphere of an entire city for newbie friendliness.  Mangling the atmosphere of cities for everyone just for newbie friendliness is like trying to kill a mosquito with a stick of TnT.

[Maybe42or54]

I am baffled on how your pc went four OOC days without drinking water.
I wish mine could go 8 hours without needing a drink.

[ale six]

If the dehydration rates are increased, you might have to worry about dehydrating to death during netsex. This would lead to less netsex. We certainly can't allow that! Therefore this idea should be scrapped.

alesix has spoken.

[Praetorian]

I have a character who went over 4 days of play time, that is around 65 Zalanthas days of being logged in, who has never once drank.  That is wrong, pure and simple.

If you feel your character should be thirsty by then, and that it didn't do its drinking when you were offgame, then what is stopping you from playing out the thirst and just drinking?  Don't need a coded message to do that.  If you want complete realism, I would think there would be outhouses of some sort all over the city, and that every game day you would have the urge to go drop ass.   :twisted:

Also keep in mind 'time' is a sort of skewered thing in a mud environment.  Conversations often take RL hours to type through, but in game time you have been standing on that street corner all day.   The same consideration might be used in referencing frequency of thirst.

[Rindan]

If you feel your character should be thirsty by then, and that it didn't do its drinking when you were offgame, then what is stopping you from playing out the thirst and just drinking?  Don't need a coded message to do that.

Not everyone chooses to play someone rich.  The people that this complete lack of dehydration in cities affects are not the Borsail servants, Tor scorpions, or Kadian merchants.  For these people, it is just a message that flashes across their screen and makes them take a swig of water to make it go away.  There are other people that choose to play poor, elves, 'rinthers, criminals, and common people where water is supposed to be a big deal, not just a message that occasionally flashes across their screen.  If my 'rinther had to drink, you better believe that would have a major impact upon his life.

If you want complete realism, I would think there would be outhouses of some sort all over the city, and that every game day you would have the urge to go drop ass.   :twisted:

Again, you miss the point.  It isn't realism.  It is atmosphere.  Taking a crap doesn't add anything to the game.  Taking a crap has no effect on game play.  It is something trivial to do that adds absolutely nothing to the game.  The need for water in a desert world is not a trivial piece of realism.

[amoeba]

You know it must be a pisser to no longer be a newbie, to know the ins and outs of how to survive.  Perhaps making it harder to survive will bring that challange up to your level, screw the n00bs.  

All sarcasm aside.  Arguing realism is silly in a fantasy game.   We have wounds that heal in an hour, meat that never spoils, we never need to sleep or defecate.  Hell we even have sissors made of stone. Cool.  So arguing realism in this context is rather specious.  

We will agree to disagree.

[Bestatte]

I completely disagree with Rindan about his opinion that taking a crap doesn't add anything to the game. Currently it doesn't - but realistically...

If you have to take a dump, and don't, you end up very - very sick. If you need to pee and constantly hold it in til you can't hold it anymore, on a regular basis, you end up very - very sick. The game doesn't require that you play that out, and the code doesn't enforce it on you. But if you want to add some realism, then add it yourself first - and once you've gotten other people to catch on to the idea, then you can start screaming for more realism.

Realistically, people can't live in a desert world where the average temperature during the day is 140, with no air conditioning, plumbing, or electricity. Zalanthas isn't realistic. It shouldn't be realistic. It was never intended to be realistic. It's a fantasy world. If you want realism, go on down to the middle-east, grab yourself a camel and a pouch of water, and start looking for an oasis.

[Maybe42or54]

Rindan. I have some questions for you. For I am not understanding you, still.

As an independant, salt forager, I had to theoretically drink a skin of water per day, maybe two.
Now, Each waterskin costs 70+ coins to fill. Just because you have 69 'sid, you may dehydrate and die because there is no "Fill up as much as possible" option.
Back to Salt Foraging, foraging salt all day, doing emotes and whatnot, you could "possibly" (but not certainly, I'm making this up) make 76+ coin.
Which means you have to go out and forage all day long again the next day just to get by. Getting you away from people into a very secluded area of the game.

When I was a miner (using partially made up numbers here),  I could work all day and make maybe 200 coin, if I am extremely lucky. Or nothing, if I saw some light green or a magicker grazed me.

That may add a lot to Rping, but in the end. Will it ADD more RP, while negating as little as possible? OR will it get rid of more RP than it fosters? I think the latter is true in this case.

[Rindan]

You know it must be a pisser to no longer be a newbie, to know the ins and outs of how to survive. Perhaps making it harder to survive will bring that challange up to your level, screw the n00bs.

There clearly are no other solution to make water be a non-issue for newbies and the ONLY way to solve this problem is to designate cities newbie zones.

This is a silly argument.  As I already said, if the problem is n00b survival, then fix n00b survival.  Load newbies up with water and don't make them get thirsty for the first few hours of the game.  Newbies are protected and the environmnt is preserved.

If you have to take a dump, and don't, you end up very - very sick. If you need to pee and constantly hold it in til you can't hold it anymore, on a regular basis, you end up very - very sick. The game doesn't require that you play that out, and the code doesn't enforce it on you. But if you want to add some realism, then add it yourself first - and once you've gotten other people to catch on to the idea, then you can start screaming for more realism.

Realistically, people can't live in a desert world where the average temperature during the day is 140, with no air conditioning, plumbing, or electricity. Zalanthas isn't realistic. It shouldn't be realistic. It was never intended to be realistic. It's a fantasy world. If you want realism, go on down to the middle-east, grab yourself a camel and a pouch of water, and start looking for an oasis.

In fact, while we are at it, why not just get rid of thirst for deserts too?  Yeah, I know it is a desert, but what about newbies?  I have tried to play a ranger character, and it is really hard.  Maybe this should be changed as well.  Further, why even bother such levels of realism?  Why are we making people eat?  Why not just get rid of eating too?  

Hell, what is with this whole perm death thing?  Sure, it is realistic, but shit, that makes the game SOO much harder.  We have perm death now, what is next?  Making people cut their toe nails, take a shit, getting lice?  Does perm death really add that much to the atmosphere?

Comparing having to drink to taking a shit is ridiculous.  You could make the same silly argument about any feature.  Someone could offer to make a better and more interesting weather system, a better crime code, improve sneak and hide, or any number of things and someone could respond with "Yeah!  Well what is next!!!! having to pee!?"  Bah.  If you have an argument against it, make an argument against it.  The argument of if you do one thing YOU MUST DO THIS!!!! is silly and holds no basis in reality.  No one suggested that people should have to take a crap in game.

This isn't realism for realisms sake.  This is realism for atmosphere's sake.  It is a frigging desert world.  That is the theme of the game.  If the theme of the game was taking a shit, I would probably be for people needing to take a shit.  It isn't though.  The theme is desert. People should have to drink water.  Why bother setting the game in frigging desert if you don't want to utilize the challenges that such a theme brings?

[Rindan]

Rindan. I have some questions for you. For I am not understanding you, still.

As an independant, salt forager, I had to theoretically drink a skin of water per day, maybe two.
Now, Each waterskin costs 70+ coins to fill. Just because you have 69 'sid, you may dehydrate and die because there is no "Fill up as much as possible" option.
Back to Salt Foraging, foraging salt all day, doing emotes and whatnot, you could "possibly" (but not certainly, I'm making this up) make 76+ coin.
Which means you have to go out and forage all day long again the next day just to get by. Getting you away from people into a very secluded area of the game.

When I was a miner (using partially made up numbers here),  I could work all day and make maybe 200 coin, if I am extremely lucky. Or nothing, if I saw some light green or a magicker grazed me.

That may add a lot to Rping, but in the end. Will it ADD more RP, while negating as little as possible? OR will it get rid of more RP than it fosters? I think the latter is true in this case.

I don't understand your question.  Salt foragers forage salt on the Salt Flats.  Obsidian miners mine for obsidian outside of Allanak.  Both leave the city and will need water even as things currently stand.

If your point is that some profession will become unprofitable due to the price of water, then the obvious and simple solution is to reduce the price of water.  If it turns out that making it so that city people need to drink water on occasion makes the game too hard, drop the price of water.  That said, I am not terribly worried.  People already need to eat every day, yet I don't think I have ever seen someone die of starvation inside of a city.  In fact, most people are have a backpack full of junk, piles of cool looking armor, or are covered in tattoos.  One more minor 'sid drain is not going to be the end of the world.  Even if it is, it is a trivial thing to fix it such that price of water is reduced.

Hell, make it so that people don't need to eat for all I care.  Everyone has to eat every day.  Kill eating and make it so that people only need to drink, and drinking only costs as much as food did if there really is a terror that the population will suddenly die of dehydration.  I would rather the game have only drinking and not eating, instead of the way it is now where there is only eating but no drinking.  This is a desert world.

[joyofdiscord]

My Nakkis have always had to consider water usage.  I think all this years/months/days without drinking thing is kind of overblown, because all of my characters have definitely had water as a pressing issue, even strictly city-bound characters, which the great majority of my characters have been.  Maybe your characters were eating lots of soup and stew, because otherwise, I can't imagine how you could have survived without water.

Also, I don't know about the code surrounding room flags, but it's always seemed to me that being outside in the city, especially in the daytime, and especially during a sandstorm, are more thirst-inducing.  Maybe I'm just imagining it though.  In general, I feel it'd be nice see a modest boost to the thirst rate and a modest downgrade to the hunger rate.  Something that wouldn't even actually affect the difficulty of survival, but just to make water more pressing a need than food.

[amoeba]

You know it must be a pisser to no longer be a newbie, to know the ins and outs of how to survive. Perhaps making it harder to survive will bring that challange up to your level, screw the n00bs.

There clearly are no other solution to make water be a non-issue for newbies and the ONLY way to solve this problem is to designate cities newbie zones.

This is a silly argument.  As I already said, if the problem is n00b survival, then fix n00b survival.  Load newbies up with water and don't make them get thirsty for the first few hours of the game.  Newbies are protected and the environmnt is preserved.

You missed the point of my pointed little comment.  I see this problem come up from folks who have been around sometime.  Things have gotten easy for them.  They know the in's and out's of the game, what it takes to survive. So they start making suggestions on how to tweak the code to make it fit their lack of coded challanges.    The arguements start turning into a lecture about how things "should" be.  

The silly portion of all these arguments is the level of hyperbola used to push thier particular point of view. Silly is the comment that it is possible to live 4 IG days without taking a single drink.  Silly is the approach that that zalathas is unplayable due to the fact that thirst does move at the pace you desire.  There are economics at play here as well, Maybe42or54 stated them well.  Silly is ignoring those arguements because it is convinent to do so.  Silly is repeating over and over again that this is a desert world.  Oddly enough I think we are aware of it.   You have stated your opinion, cool, lets move along.

[Maybe42or54]

Alright. How will making Bynners drink more water help RP? People wont want to drop 300 coins of their starting coin to go into the byn with a garuntee of having to buy their own water also.

How will making any of the nobles or merchant/noble house employees drink more water help RP? They'll continue acting like its nothing.

How will making independants drink more water help RP? They will have to stay away from the cities just a little more, keeping them away from RPing with their peers.

If you want people to get thirsty more then they get hungry, I don't see how it is realistic, but fuck it. Alright.

[Maybe42or54]

Oh and one more thing I keep forgetting.
Will there be more RP then this, or will it just happen a lot more?

The tall, black man opens his large leather knapsack.

The tall, black man get a leather waterskin from his large leather knasack.

The tall, black man drinks water from his leather waterskin.

The tall, black man drinks water from his leather waterskin.

The tall, black man drinks water from his leather waterskin.

The tall, black man drinks water from his leather waterskin.

The tall, black man puts a leather waterskin into his large leather knapsack.

The tall, black man closes his large leather knapsack.

[Seeker]

I favor Rindan's position.

Adressing Sanvean's comment about the newbie learning curve, I believe that learning how to properly handle water and dehydration probably should be one of the first things that a new player learns in Armageddon, actually.  Those dessicated corpses in front of the Dragon Temple should MEAN something.

I see it as a vital component in the "grittiness and harshness" discussions that have come up from time to time, and also being part of the "clan vs. independent" arguments for all the reasons already mentioned above.

The essential argument, that every player everywhere in the gameworld should have water as a vital concern, is one I agree with.

Seeker

[Rindan]

The silly portion of all these arguments is the level of hyperbola used to push thier particular point of view. Silly is the comment that it is possible to live 4 IG days without taking a single drink.  

I am not using hyperbola in the slightest.  I meant literally what I said.  I have a city bound character.  He doesn't drink.  Take a character, drink until you get a message about being full, load up on travel cakes, then go lay down in the bazaar.  Unless my character is horribly bugged, you will never ever get thirsty.  Yes, you can literally sit there for real life days and Zalanthas years without getting thirsty.

My observations of the thirst code cities are as follows.  If you are near being thirsty and inside of the city, you will eventually get thirst.  If you are inside of a city and full on water, your thirst levels NEVER reduce.

Alright. How will making Bynners drink more water help RP? People wont want to drop 300 coins of their starting coin to go into the byn with a grantee of having to buy their own water also.

Tweak a single number in the stew upping the water content of the stew and you won't notice.

How will making any of the nobles or merchant/noble house employees drink more water help RP? They'll continue acting like its nothing.

As they should.  That is the point of being rich.  That is why people join those organizations.  I bet noble house workers would be much more inclined to appreciate the life of luxury they have each and every time they get a drink for free from their organization.

Will there be more RP then this, or will it just happen a lot more?
Insert some spam here.

Wow, that guy was thirsty.

How will it add more RP?  'rinthers, criminals, commoners, and other city bound people that don't have a cushy job will notice.  Those with cushy jobs will notice when they constantly rely on their employer for water.

The RP for the struggle to get enough to drink is one of the core aspects of the game.  RP galore can spawn from it.  You have a 'rinther.  You can't get a normal job and the militia are after you.  You scourge here and there, but you 'sid reserve is getting thinner and thinner.  You are getting thirstier and thirstier.  Finally, you actually getting desperate as death is starting to look imminent.  You head into the local 'rinth pub desperate because you know that you are fast running out of time.  An elf notices your state of distress and takes a seat next to you.  He says he will provide you with water... but if he does, you owe him a little favor...

If you want people to get thirsty more then they get hungry, I don't see how it is realistic, but fuck it. Alright.

As more then one person has argued (yourself included), fuck realism.  If we are going to throw realism to the wind, we might as well throw it to the wind such that it reinforces the theme of the game in the very least.

[Agent_137]

i'm pretty sure playability beats realism in this one, for all the reasons mentioned.

[Maybe42or54]

Oh and on the note of Adding to RP.

If we are going to tweak thirst and whatnot, I think you should be able to go longer at each stage of "thirst," instead of getting hit with a more and more intense one, and then in a couple IG hours, you go from thirsty to not being able to move.

[bloodfromstone]

I think that's a good idea over all, Maybe42or54. It always seemed kind of funny to me to be like "Hmm, I'm thirsty, better get a drink." and by the time you pull open your waterskin you're already dehydrated. I'd like to get "You are thirsty." at least a few IC hours before you actually start getting penalized for it.

[amoeba]

I favor Rindan's position.

Adressing Sanvean's comment about the newbie learning curve, I believe that learning how to properly handle water and dehydration probably should be one of the first things that a new player learns in Armageddon, actually.  Those dessicated corpses in front of the Dragon Temple should MEAN something.

I see it as a vital component in the "grittiness and harshness" discussions that have come up from time to time, and also being part of the "clan vs. independent" arguments for all the reasons already mentioned above.

The essential argument, that every player everywhere in the gameworld should have water as a vital concern, is one I agree with.

Seeker

Favoring harshness is not the entire equation.  Yes, water should be more vital.  Yes a vivudian with unlimited resources should be able to have that ability to mean something.  Yes there should be a struggle to meet resources.  The problem is how.  Taking a simplistic approach of simply make the rates go up discounts the levels of dependency.  I also strongly dislike using exaggerated data to back up an argument.  

There are factors that should be taken into account. One of these is the playability concern  Especially for those trying to acclimate themselves to the game. Not everyone learns at the same pace, your expectations my be colored by your own skills and experience. It is something that can not be discounted, unless you like less players.  Personally what I would like to see, but I'm not sure if it is codeable is a sliding needs scale for want of a better word.  That is your first few characters will dehydrate slower than later ones.   This gives them time to learn syntax, game structure, and basic knowledge of the game before having to deal with the full consequences of the "grittiness" of the place.

Another concern is economics. Making dehydration quicker, but decreasing the price for water is counterintuitive.  Then you are just making it a less scarce resource.  Where is the roleplay in that,  you just defeated your intent.  IMHO there should be a much higher dependence on black market sources of water. Do we make it nearly impossible for someone to make a living on mining and spice gathering?   Maybe that is something we want to do, maybe not, but it is part of the discussion.  Unintended consequences happen when you tweak the economy.  Remember the week that the mud did not reboot on one Saturday.  The economy got seriously mucked up because the shops did not empty.  I saw it nearly impossible to sell items in shops, so people were leaving animal parts everywhere.  The upside is I saw a lot more raiding.  The point is, think before you leap.  

In parting I don't mind an honest discussion about this stuff.  But look at all the implications. You want a grittier atmosphere?  Of course, but harder to live -in and of itself- does not necessarily do this.  So framing it this way.  How do we make water a more treasured resource and -still- deal with the resulting fallout?  My opinion, simply increasing the dehydration rate doesn't cut it.  It won't give you that end result you desire.

[X-D]

I think Rindan's char is buggy.

I've played city half-giants and filled up with water and, without ever leaving the city still got thirsty. And half-giants have a much larger capacity then other races.

I also notice, that with my -city- clanned chars, how often that barracks barrel of water needs to be filled, even when there are only a few pc's in the clan who rarely, if ever leave the city.

I really don't see how it would enhance the game in any way to up thirst in cities, but I'm sure, if you think its right for your char that the staff would be more then happy to up your thirst ticker or decrease capacity or something. If you ask...might not even need to say pretty please.

[LoD]

In reference to Sanvean's comment about the learning curve being set a bit too high for new players should the thirst requirement be elevated, I completely agree.  There are so many other aspects of this game to be experienced and observed without having to be bothered by ensuring you've enough water to make it down a city road.  This wouldn't make the game more harsh and it wouldn't improve the atmposhere of the MUD.  It would create a money sink for experienced players and potentially drive newer players away.

There's a reason why you don't see MUD advertisements such as:

"Packed with realistic eating/drinking algorithms for ultimate harshness!"
"Forget PC interaction, battle the intangible enemies of thirst and hunger!"

Perhaps there are those that do, but I just don't enjoy managing hunger and thirst past a certain point because the whole reason I play this game is to interact with other players.  I purchase water from NPC's or obtain them from objects found in the game.  Most people do.  Increasing the need to obtain more water so that we can interact even more with these NPC's and objects doesn't seem like it will improve the atmosphere.  It will only force people to leave their RP to go fill their waterskin or drink before returning to what they were doing in the first place.

The very implementation of thirst and hunger (in any MUD) should serve as a reminder to players that they are real people who eat, drink, go the bathroom and sleep.  This reminder allows for use of cooking, crafting, alcohol and other products to be used in the game as props and RP tools while they play out their roles with the other players.

As Praetorian pointed out earlier, which I also agree with, no one is forcing you to adhere to the coded messages telling you when you are thirsty or hungry.  If you want to RP that out - then do so.  But the amount of "atmosphere" attainable by forcing people to purchase more water, drink more often and carry more water just doesn't seem to be equal to the rewards of a system that treats thirst in a desert world as an occasional reminder of its necessity rather than a constant demand for consumption.

-LoD

[Larrath]

I think that people are exaggerating the downsides of this.
Let's see:

First of all, newbies:
New characters could enter the game with a small waterskin, and be immune to thirst for the first five RL hours.  This is more than enough time to ask where water is.  If a new player has had zero interaction in five hours of playtime, they probably won't stick around no matter what.
Given these two small measures, I don't see how this would affect the learning curve at all.

With this out of the way - nobody is proposing to make Allanak's streets as dehydrating as the Salt Flats.  We are proposing to make them somewhat dehydrating, in order to make people need to drink more.  We'd also like taverns and other indoor locations to be slightly dehydrating, so people can't sit there for three days and not drink once.
We're not saying that a character should start suffering from thirst if they haven't had a drink in two game hours.
However, a character should need to sip a little water at least once a day.

This makes water more valuable, which it should be because good water is difficult to come by in Zalanthas.  The majority of the Known World is one giant, dead wasteland.  People should struggle for water.
This also makes Vivaduans much more useful to everyone, and get people to give them more of the respect they deserve.
A Vivaduan can fill a barrel of water in a number of seconds.  This is every bit as incredible as (and often more important than) a Krathi that slings giant fireballs.

If you want to keep throwing the 'Playability vs. Realism' card, well, why don't we get rid of hunger and thirst completely?  Let the VNPCs worry about that.  When I play a 'rinthi, my PC's most realistic concern should be water; hunger doesn't kill anywhere near as fast as thirst does.

[LoD]

We are proposing to make them somewhat dehydrating, in order to make people need to drink more.  We'd also like taverns and other indoor locations to be slightly dehydrating, so people can't sit there for three days and not drink once. We're not saying that a character should start suffering from thirst if they haven't had a drink in two game hours.
However, a character should need to sip a little water at least once a day.

Why?  Is it really going to create a richer environment and atmosphere?  Does the action really make for a better scene?

Forcing people to take out a waterskin and drink more often isn't the solution to this problem.  If you really wanted to add more atmosphere to the game, why don't you focus on something that makes people more aware of WHY they should be drinking rather than force them to complete the mindless action.

I'd much rather see a random chance for you to receive one of 25 thirst messages when you move below a certain thirst level to had atmosphere than to have the code force me to drink.  That would actually remind people that it's a desert world, that they might be thirsty more often than an hour before complete dehydration.

Right now people see wait until they see, "You are thirsty." and then:

>open pack
>take skin pack
>drink skin
>!
>!
>!
You are not thirsty.
>put skin pack
>close pack

Instead, present the players with a simple, but more developed model for conveying their level of thirst.   Perhaps every time their thirst "meter" ticks down, they have a 25% chance of receiving a random message:

Your mouth feels dry.
You force a dry swallow.
Your tongue moves over your dry lips.
Gritty sand crunches between teeth in your dry mouth.
Did I just swallow a bug?  Drink, dude, that's nasty!

Give the players a -reason- to focus upon the atmosphere.  The best solution will always be as a result of communication, not frequency.

-LoD

[Kalden]

I can't spend 50% of my time heading to the temple or wherever.

Besides, I'd be dead in less than IC week if this happened. Heh. Annoying.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I think that people are exaggerating the downsides of this.

Uh no. I imagine you're playing someone with an unlimited supply of water/coin, like 90% of you people (clanned). I'm not. I can honestly say I'd be dead within an IC week or two. That is, unless I killed a few of you first.

[Larrath]

We are proposing to make them somewhat dehydrating, in order to make people need to drink more.  We'd also like taverns and other indoor locations to be slightly dehydrating, so people can't sit there for three days and not drink once. We're not saying that a character should start suffering from thirst if they haven't had a drink in two game hours.
However, a character should need to sip a little water at least once a day.

Why?  Is it really going to create a richer environment and atmosphere?  Does the action really make for a better scene?

Yes, this maintains the atmosphere because it reminds people that water is the most important thing in Zalanthas, and not food.  It will make independents and raiders worry about water, and it will make Vivaduans more desirable, as well as allow them to work as water-sellers.

I'd much rather see a random chance for you to receive one of 25 thirst messages when you move below a certain thirst level to had atmosphere than to have the code force me to drink.  That would actually remind people that it's a desert world, that they might be thirsty more often than an hour before complete dehydration.

Simply putting more messages and not changing the frequency one needs to drink doesn't matter much, in my opinion.  Think about the Way - you get a nice message (a foreign presence contacts your mind.), but I doubt anyone gets anything special from that message alone after they become used to it.  If there were more messages in circulation (your ears tingle as someone enters your head), I don't think there would be a difference.

Give the players a -reason- to focus upon the atmosphere.  The best solution will always be as a result of communication, not frequency.

Arm isn't all atmosphere.  That's why we can't pick as many skills as we like on character generation, and why instant death is such a real threat.  There is a balance, and right now I believe the answer is to make thirst more common.

[EvilRoeSlade]

All of these arguements seem to be based on the assumption that Rindan is suggesting the game be made unplayable.  That is why all of these arguements opposed to an adjustment to the thirst code are flawed.

A moderate increase in thirst rates coupled with a slight to moderate reduction of hunger rates would be just the thing to make water a resource as valuable as its prohibitive price indicates, as well as remind everyone that they are in a harsh desert atmosphere.

What we are looking at is a spectrum.  On one end of the spectrum, players would never have to eat or drink unless they wanted to for role-play purposes.  Starvation or dehydration would never threaten the life of a character under any circumstances.

On the other end of the spectrum, players would have to eat and drink as much as they presumably would have to in real life.

As far as food is concerned, we are probably near the middle of this spectrum, possibly a little closer to the RL simulation end.  I wouldn't mind a reduction here, since I can attest that an independent character in the Magick Fairy Kingdom of Allanak will be spending quite a bit of time eating food, cooking food, and performing monotonous tasks that will eventually result in food.

Looking at water, I am not certain that Rindan is right about never have to drink if your character is saturated to a certain point.  I am not sure that he is wrong either.

But I've actually taken the time to calculate how much my current city-based character has spent on food, versus how much they have spent on water.  The results were surprising.  For every coin I have spent on water, I have spent more than ten coins on food.

Considering this information, I would suggest that water could stand to be notched up a little on the spectrum we're looking at.  It should be a calculated adjustment not designed to ruin playability.

Perhaps there are those that do, but I just don't enjoy managing hunger and thirst past a certain point because the whole reason I play this game is to interact with other players. I purchase water from NPC's or obtain them from objects found in the game. Most people do. Increasing the need to obtain more water so that we can interact even more with these NPC's and objects doesn't seem like it will improve the atmosphere. It will only force people to leave their RP to go fill their waterskin or drink before returning to what they were doing in the first place.

That's an interesting arguement.  However, I think that increasing the need for water should in fact decrease the reliance on NPCs for the water needs of characters.

When you need to spend 70 coins to buy water from an NPC, but an eldritch vividuan or a gritty ranger is offering you a skin for 30 sid (or even better, offering it in exchange for a favor) then PCs will be considerably more likely to rely on other PCs for their water needs then to buy water from NPC robots.

[amoeba]

When you need to spend 70 coins to buy water from an NPC, but an eldritch vividuan or a gritty ranger is offering you a skin for 30 sid (or even better, offering it in exchange for a favor) then PCs will be considerably more likely to rely on other PCs for their water needs then to buy water from NPC robots.

Provided this happens.  Lets call it the "field of dreams" effect, "build it and they will come".  If this were a certianty that would be great.  This assumes that there will be alternative sources of supply.  Similar situations exist in other corners of the game, a good example is the Byn.  This can be a great clan, lots of interactions, great place to get your foot into roleplay...provided there is a sergeant availible.  

The role of alternative water sources is also  exaserbaited by the fact that its very nature is covert.  The more experienced will know how to navigate those waters (pardon the pun), the others: newbies, off-peak players, etc. will be at a distinct disadvantage in this scheme.  

Not being able to get into the byn or having nothing to do once you are in there because of a lack of sergeants is one thing.  Dying to a coded effect because there are not alternative sources of water availiable, coupled with the demands of increasing the rate of dehydration to the level that would drive people to alternative sources isn't the kind of roleplay I would like to see.

It is not that it is not a decent enough of an idea, it's simply that the approach is too blunt.  With more players, I see this as quite viable.  I see problems with it at the level of playership at the moment.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Not being able to get into the byn or having nothing to do once you are in there because of a lack of sergeants is one thing.  Dying to a coded effect because there are not alternative sources of water availiable, coupled with the demands of increasing the rate of dehydration to the level that would drive people to alternative sources isn't the kind of roleplay I would like to see.

No one is suggesting making the available coded sources unviable.  I'm simply pointing out that if water was more than one-tenth as worrisome as food is, then maybe people would occasionally begin to investigate these alternate sources in the first place.

I'm not saying drive people to an alternate source as you put it.  I'm saying to provide an incentive to investigate these sources in the first place.

[Maybe42or54]

On a scale on 1 to 50. Rindan, please tell me where you'd like to place Allanaks level in comparison with Tuluk's, the salt flats, luirs, red storm, and the southern desert.

This might help me see what you want.

[Rindan]

On a scale on 1 to 50. Rindan, please tell me where you'd like to place Allanaks level in comparison with Tuluk's, the salt flats, luirs, red storm, and the southern desert.

This might help me see what you want.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing water needs in a city be close to what they are in the Allanaki desert.  I personally don't recall having ever seen a character die of thirst or hunger in a city.  I think the harshness of people needing to spend money on water in a city is drastically overstated.  The only characters I have ever seen even close to starving in a city were people who had obviously junked everything they had, and then intentionally avoided getting 'sid from the piles of corpses scattered throughout the 'rinth.  I have never ever seen a completely city based character even close to dying of dehydration.

I personally don't like the cities being labeled as newbie zones, and the desert zones being only for the 3lit3 who can tolerate living in a desert.  I also don't like the assumption that the only people in the game are in rich clans, Byn, or independent hunters.  Some people try and role play purely city based merchants, criminals, mercenaries, and city elves.

All of that said, I would be more then happy if the time it takes to get thirsty was a little longer then how long it takes to get hungry right now.  Then, I would like to see the time it takes to get hungry be double what it is now.  

Basically, the one thing I REALLY want is for water to be needed more then food.   Make it take longer to get hungry for all I care, just make it so that my 'rinther worries more about getting even vaguely clean water more then food.  Having the thirst rates cranked up close to that of a desert would get my rocks off, but simply switching food and water needs would make me happy enough.

[Maybe42or54]

On the topic, switch food for water. I like it. I don't know why and it doesn't make sense. It'll suck, sure.

But in order for it to work. Other things will need to be fixed.
Make the T'zai Byn stew fill people up with water and food quicker. Instead of 10 bowls to fill up, make it 3 or 4.

Make food in general fill you up faster. I can't eat two potatoes IRL without being full. IG, I have to eat about 15 or so tubers.

Extend the amount of time you can be thirsty. Instead of three hours IG, you get a message every hour or something. Instead of going from not thirsty to dead in 4 IG hours, make it 12 hours. 6 if you are in the desert.

And a few others. Water costs to much to make it extremely valueable, and make others so dependant on it.

I remember reading that most citizens make less than 2 small a year.
That is three waterskins of water a year. Not to mention food.

[valakas]

Okay ill keep this short and simple... the water thing should not change for a few reasons...

1.Ever think that the world of things would have become accustomed to the desert world and not be as effected by it as a normal human that lives today in our world.
2.I think on page 1 of this someone said the desert is hot... and dry well it gets cold too so go test this out...go outside to a desert at night in normal cloths like a NPC or PC with just normal cloths and see if you can think of being thirsty when your ice cold.
3.Don't blame me if theres somthing wrong just like...don't think about it unless its somthing completly retarded then and only then CHANGE IT...to somthing better not just another thing.

[Larrath]

The Known World does not become ice cold at night.
It becomes, at the very coolest, chilly enough that some people would put on a sweater.

Zalanthas has nine hours each day, only two of which are actually night.  It does not cool that much, though some Zalanthans might think it's cold - of course, most Zalanthans also wear very long and thick clothes as it is.

[Anonymous]

I'll summarize this awful cascade of posts for those of you just tuning in:

Purpose: To increase the rate of dehydration within each respective polis.
Argument: Realism.
Counterargument: Too much Realism (playability).

Solution: It is quite amusing that countless exhaustively express themselves in such a colossal quantity, and yet hardly anyone emotes beyond: So-and-so puckers him lips.

...So it's not a solution, but it's certainly a derailment.

I find that placing the displayed effort into sincere role-play will result in an achievement much more beneficial than an adjustment to the code.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Cenghiz]

I've seen way too many people who licked their cracked lips )

Anyway, as a last thing to note, I'm really OK with the idea to make hunger less of an issue a bit and to make the thirst more of an issue a bit.
As many said above, I, too have spent 10 coins for food for every coin I spend for water. (Red Storm is an exception)
It's hard for a newbie player to learn he can cook himself in the city, find the grocer, come back in the morning if it's night, buy some flour, cook the flour into travel cakes and satiate his hunger.
Finding cheap food is even harder than finding where water can be sold. And I remember, with my new characters I always had enough water, but a few characters starved. Not starved to death, but it was my nightmare seeing the words: "You are famished."
So if a change is needed -and I guess it may be fine to reform the atmosphere- the rate of hunger can be decreased and the rate of thirst can be increased.
Now I'm gone to check with a customer for whom I wrote a program about industrial gears. I wish I can clear my mind and don't tell him 'steel? obsidian is way cheaper."

[valakas]

If you have seen my post above.

4.To much realism is bad... and ill tell you way some people when they play games they are trying to relax, and some its okay becuse they are serious when they play a game so what I mean is if you make it to real people will not like it at much or some would so basicly keep it the same for the people that would not like more realism so they would still play more people is better... and for the guys and girls that want more realism theres enough in the world our charactors call home.

[Pantoufle]

The problem is, once you get thirsty you begin to dehydrate real fast.  At which point, if you don't have any water with you, you're f*#@ed!  That is, at least last time I had a character who got thirsty.  In my present incarnation, whom I've been playing for over 6 (real) months now, I've only needed water as many times as I can count on one hand.  By the way, (s)he lives in the "Magic Faerie Kingdom of Allanak" and has never stepped foot outside its walls.

I think that's a bit extreme.  If we're going to have to adhere to a code which forces us to do anything, I'd rather see water a necessity over food, if only to enhance the atmosphere.

Having said that, you needn't up the dehydration code.  Simply prompt PCs with 'You are thirsty' more frequently, but without any coded effect (i.e., you don't actually NEED water.)  I'm sure there are a lot of dehydrated people in the real world who don't drink enough liquids, but they're not losing health and/or stamina to the point of incapacitation.  They're simply thirsty.  I'd like to just see more prompts reminding me that, although I may not absolutely NEED water, it's still a good idea and I'm still thirsty.  Perhaps the first 5-10 prompts could be ignored, afterwhich you then begin to dehydrate.

[Salt Merchant]

Oh and one more thing I keep forgetting.
Will there be more RP then this, or will it just happen a lot more?

The tall, black man opens his large leather knapsack.

The tall, black man get a leather waterskin from his large leather knasack.

The tall, black man drinks water from his leather waterskin.

The tall, black man drinks water from his leather waterskin.

The tall, black man drinks water from his leather waterskin.

The tall, black man drinks water from his leather waterskin.

The tall, black man puts a leather waterskin into his large leather knapsack.

The tall, black man closes his large leather knapsack.

Yup, we've all seen this.

An 'all' option could reduce the spam. 'drink waterskin all'. Then the character would either pour the entire contents of the waterskin down his gullet or stop when his thirst is slaked.

The tall, black man opens his large leather knapsack.

The tall, black man get a leather waterskin from his large leather knasack.

The tall, black man tilts a leather waterskin back and empties it down his throat.

The tall, black man says, in sirihish:
'well, Krath, i was thirsty, ok?'

The tall tall, black man puts a leather waterskin into his large leather knapsack.

[Salt Merchant]

People should kill, rape, steal, and cheat for just a small gourd of this stuff.

This is going too far. If life were that tough in Allanak, then the city would clearly be in a state of vast overpopulation (i.e. population greatly exceeding the available resources) and a war would be fought in the streets.

Also, for the people who claim it makes sense for water to be more expensive than food, unless you live on a diet of scrab meat and such, how do you think food comes into being? You need lots and lots of water to grow fruits and vegetables, right up to the point you eat their water-filled skin and flesh. And very few people can live on a diet of scrab meat; the desert just wouldn't support the population of Allanak that way.

Maybe the discrepancy in experience people are having has to do with how they eat. Character 1 lives on a diet of kalan fruit. Character 2 eats nothing but travel cakes. Who is going to dry out faster?