Rank typo?

[RunningMountain]

If you go here.
http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

It says that Corporal is above Sergeant. Does that make sense? Is it a typo? I've always thought Corporal was below Sergeant. In all military organizations. Any ideas?

-RM

[Jherlen]

Maybe the Allanaki militia just organises their ranks differently.

[Agent_137]

THEY DO IT JUST TO CONFUSE YOU.

BASTARDOS!


p.s.

in real life,  a sergeant is ALWAYS above a corporal, though sometimes by only one rank.

[Manhattan]

that goes to show how old and outdated documentations are.

[Myrdryn]

Just one of many reasons why spice is illegal in Allanak.

[Bogre]

Who ever said it had to make sense?

[RunningMountain]

Everything makes sense BUT that. Or else Junior Merchants would be higher then Senior merchants. Privates could be the highest rank, Captain could be the lowest. It's the ONLY thing that doesn't fit. While every other clan has it corporal>sergeant

[Manhattan]

i like how after people pointed out the error and the page is stillunchanged.

[Raesanos]

This is a real clan with a large amount of documentation and history.  Structural changes like this are not trivial even if it is decided that a change should be made, both in terms of documentation and in-game support for the rank structure.  Further, the GDB is not an official place to suggest changes, so if you think something should be changed, you need to contact the staff via formal means (email, bug report in game, etc.)  Lastly, I doubt everyone would agree that it is a change that needs to be made.

[Cale_Knight]

Lastly, I doubt everyone would agree that it is a change that needs to be made.

This is a public page. Either the information is correct or it's incorrect. Either way, we deserve to know. I somehow doubt it's public policy to purposefully have misleading information submitted as official stuff. That's both unfriendly and counterproductive. Saying maybe it's wrong and maybe it's not just doesn't get us anywhere.

And yes, I notice that it says "these are broad guidelines, and intended only to be used as such, not as definitive rules." Before anyone points it out, I'll say that it's fairly obvious Savean is referring to how the ranks interact with each other, not the actual order of them.

Just to sum it up: Fix it if it's wrong, tell us if it's right, or remove it completely if it's supposed to be secret militia information.

edit: And if it is correct information (which I don't think it is), it should be specifically noted on the page that in the 'nakki militia, a corporal ranks above a sergeant. There's no reason not to other than to purposefully mislead people, which is not something the helpfiles should be doing.

[facehugger]

Far as I know, the ranks are correct. Just because they do not match with one of the many standard military ranking systems on Earth, does not make them wrong.

Zalanthas, not Earth.
Zalanthas.

[waroth]

Being a former Corporal and Sergeant in the Allanaki Militia, I can tell you it is correct as far as the Southern Militia goes.  Nothing secret about it.  It's just the way it was originally done.  Although odd, it's one of those times when we must once again say Allanak is not Earth.  On that note however, being a former military man myself in RL as are several of you, in the Army, Marines and Air Force, a Captain is an O-3, although in the Navy, a Captain is an O-6 or the equivalent of a full bird Colonel in the first three.  So you can see, even in real life sometimes stuff is backwards in different branches of military.  The only thing I can see them adding to the ranktable is making sure they point out it means Southern Militia and not Northern, otherwise I see nothing wrong.

[Cale_Knight]

That's fine, but it should be noted on the page that it's not a mistake. I know that when I played in 'nak last and found that page (my first character in the game) I automatically assumed it was a typo and would probably have ended up with my foot in my mouth if there had been an active militia corporal and sergeant at that time.

[Maybe42or54]

It doesn't make sense in Real life that A 2nd Lieutenant has a gold bar and a 1st Lieutenant has a silver bar.

I can make up an excuse for it, if you want.

In some houses, Sargeant is higher then Corporal.
In most others, Sargeant is lower.


Who cares? It ain't earth.

[cyberpatrol_735]

Just for reference, the US Marine corps chain of command ranks:

Recruit
Private
Private First Class
Lance Corporal
Corporal
Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Gunnery Sergeant
Master Sergeant
First Sergeant
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major of the USMC.

And officers go:

Second Lieutenant
First Lieutenant
Captain
Major
Lieutenant Colonel
Colonel
Brigadier General
Major General
Lieutenant General
General

This is the US Form, which is very close to arms, vice versa, I think the corporal being above sergeant is a mistake also, but rae is right, should be emailed to MUD.

[Red Ranger]

One solution to the flipped ranks would be to overhaul the default military ranking system in most clans.

I've long been of the opinion that an effort should be made to make up new rank names for the various organizations, or at least ones that aren't so familiar to most of us.  I find that the default military rank names impair my ability to suspend disbelief and immerse myself into the alien world of Zalanthas.  Whenever I read "Private X" I think "Private Ryan" or "Private Benjamin" or "Private Pyle."  Whenever I see someone refer to a "sarge" I think of Private Hudson whining to Sergeant Apone.

Now, the ranks of lieutenant and captain I personally have no problems with, they're more generic terms.  Turin Turumbar was a raider captain and the Nazgul had a lieutenant to the Witch King.

Still, I would prefer to see ranking systems more alien to my Western daily real life.  Maybe something only loosely related to real life, like the ranks of the Sarduakar, with Bursegs and Colonel Bashars.  Or maybe something completely different with newly made names for each rank.

Furthermore, making markedly different ranking systems could help distinguish various clans from one another, or differing cultures from one another, such as the the north from the south.

Of course, changing the ranking systems in the different clans would be an abrupt change and pretty much impossible to explain IC'ly, but I'd still love to see it.  After all, other changes occasionally happen that are tough to explain IC'ly, like new areas going into the game, but (most) every player knows that it was a change and to act as though things were always that way.

Now that I've finished this post, I see that it would have fit nicely in the most recent pet peeves thread.

Red Ranger

[Raesanos]

Just to sum it up: Fix it if it's wrong, tell us if it's right, or remove it completely if it's supposed to be secret militia information.

I wasn't aware the information's correctness was being questioned, merely the degree to which it reflects real-life military structures.  To be explicit, the page is correct given our game structure, but does not seem to reflect several real-life military structures.  If the information is wrong as game documentation, then yes, it would certainly be fixed as soon as possible, but it is not.  This heirarchy is consistant within the game.

[Raesanos]

I wasn't aware the information's correctness was being questioned, merely the degree to which it reflects real-life military structures.

Reading back, the original poster does ask "Is it a typo?" questioning the accuracy of the page.  So, the fact that I wasn't aware that its correctness was being questioned is my own mistake.  Either way, I hope I clarified things.

[RunningMountain]

I was just curious. Didn't mean to stir up any conceptual debates. It just doesn't make sense since I've heard from many people that Corporal is always lower then Sergeant in all other clans in the game. If it was a mistake done 9 years ago by the militia clan imm  at the time, and was just never fixed I think it should be. And like red ranger said, I think it would be awesome if we changed some of the rank structures for some clans, here's some just to spur ideas, in no particular order.

Recruit
Infantryman
Soldier/Commando
Archer
Scout
Sergeant Soldier
Lieutenant Commander
High Captain


-RM

[Cale_Knight]

Sorry for coming off so abrasively in this thread.

But I still think that there should be a little footnote on the page in question explaining that corporal really does come above sergeant in this ranking system. I don't think too many people would say "well, it's not earth" rather than "huh, looks like a typo."

[Manhattan]

Military Occupations
Who keeps the country safe from encroaching enemies and wild monsters? Why, the military, of course. These brave men - and sometimes women train against the possibility that they'll have to protect their country with their lives.

archer - dictionary - one who shoots arrows
bowman - dictionary
camp follower - dictionary - people following an army, making money off of the soldiers
cannoneer - dictionary
crossbowman - dictionary
drummer - dictionary
engineer - dictionary
guardsman - dictionary
halberdier - dictionary
mercenary - dictionary
pikeman - dictionary
pioneer - dictionary - an early term for military engineer
pursuivant - dictionary - officer of arms, ranks below herald, similar duties
sapper - dictionary - specialist in field fortifications
scout - dictionary
seige engineer - dictionary
sergeant - dictionary
sergeant-at-arms - dictionary
spearman - dictionary
spy - dictionary

[ShaiHulud]

Far as I know, the ranks are correct. Just because they do not match with one of the many standard military ranking systems on Earth, does not make them wrong.

Zalanthas, not Earth.
Zalanthas.

Ditto.

But I admit long ago it did not make sense to me, not fully realizing this.
Perhaps such differences are there to remind us this is -not- Earth?

[Elgiva]

I agree. I do not see any reason why "in irl military it works like this" should be a reason why it should work the same on Zalanthas.

[bloodfromstone]

Perhaps there is no real reason why it should work the same way, but the ranks are based on actual military positions, so they have a connotation that some people can find jarring or hard to shake.

I couldn't really start referring to people as 'inept' at various skills that they're great at and expect people to just assume I mean they're awesome at it because, hey, maybe 'inept' means bad on Earth, but this is Zalanthas.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but i really think there are some fair points being made about the confusion that could develop.

[Cale_Knight]

bloodfromstone is correct.

Let's take this page. http://www.armageddon.org/general/subguilds.html

If the first entry looked like this:

Acrobats know how to stop critical bleeding using bandages, as well as construct the bandages necessary to do so. They are also able to create cures using various herbs and brew elixirs in order to numb the pain of those seriously wounded.

...would your first reaction be "Ah ha. In Zalanthas, physicians are called acrobats!" or would you consider it a typo?

It's the same case here. The Web site contains information that directly contradicts what is generally held true. Just because the world is fictional doesn't mean that we can't reasonably expect certain conventions to be, by default, correct.

Again, I'm not saying that the rank structure should be changed in-game. All I'm lobbying for is a single footnote on the chart explaining that the chart is correct. A two-second operation that might clear up a bunch of trouble for some newbie.

[Delirium]

One solution to the flipped ranks would be to overhaul the default military ranking system in most clans.

Another great suggestion from Red Ranger (read the whole post).

I would caution that the ranks should remain simplistic and easy to remember, though.  To minimize confusion, I would also suggest that for each House this is implimented for (if any), a table is shown that not only shows the ascension of ranks, but that also corresponds the House rank with its general RL equivalent.

Something like:

Code Select Expand

Fluffy          Sergeant
Boots           Lieutenant

Etc, etc.  The only drawback I can see to this is confusion about who outranks who between different Houses - but I think that should be something a bit more nebulous than it is now, anyway.  Let that be something you have to dig for a bit IC rather than thinking "Oh, he's a Sergeant.  So he outranks me."  Instead, you could think, "Hm, he's newly promoted, from what my sources tell me.. that may mean he doesn't have much backing from his House yet.. plus, I hear that his rank is rather low on their ladder"  (Only to be proven horribly wrong).  Not that this doesn't happen any now, but I'd like to see it happen more.

[Maybe42or54]

My proposed order of ranks. (For the southern Militia, in order)
Yellow (recruit)
Swordsmen (private)
Soldier
Elite Soldier
Lieutenant
Captain

House Tor (ranks, not in order)
Scorp
Sand Scorpion
Silver Scorpion
Blood Scorpion
Flying Scorpions (War Mages)
Obsidian Scorpion (Lieutenants)
Steel Scorpion (Captains and higher)

Northern Militia
Trustee (I am one of His Trustee sounds fun to proclaim)
Sparabara (From the Persion Army)
Spara
Elite Spara
Lieutenenat
Captain


Should I just do this for every house, or just stop now before I am shot? Just ideas.

Editted for spelling.

[Cale_Knight]

Leftenenat

Lieutenant. The British pronounce it that way but spell it the same way we do.

[Halaster]

i like how after people pointed out the error and the page is stillunchanged.

You make an assumption that it's an error.  It is not.

Anyway, I double-checked that with the way the ranking system is setup for the clan in the game, as well as the soldiers documentation for the clan (yes, that's right, you AoD players, your member-only documention agrees with this), and in all cases it shows, from lowest to highest:

Private
Sergeant
Corporal
Lieutenant
Captain

Therefore, it is not in error.  The page is correct.

Does it mesh with RL military structures, or others in the game?  I guess not.  Will I change it?  I dunno, but not likely.  Why not?  The amount of work in changing the ranking system in the game as well as the various pages of documentation do not justify the outcome - which is basically nothing meaningful (that's about switching the order of Corporal and Sergeant - totally renaming them and stuff is a differnent idea, which I'm not totally opposed to).

When we first implemented ranks within clans, I'm fairly certain I'm the one who setup the ranks for the AoD (though I could be wrong, it has been a long time - I set up SOME clan though).  Being someone who has never been in the military, I guess I got it a little wrong.  Oh well, bummer dude.

[adrien]

Leftenenat

Lieutenant. The British pronounce it that way but spell it the same way we do.

Ya canadians say it the same way as the british

[RunningMountain]

You could always just rename Corporal to something else. If it's one rank above Sergeant you can call it Master Sergeant or something.

[Ritley]

You could always just rename Corporal to something else. If it's one rank above Sergeant you can call it Master Sergeant or something.

I think corporal sounds better anyway for a top rank. I guess the staff have better things to do in there time.

[RunningMountain]

Sure doesn't sound like a top rank to me. And anyone who is remotely familiar with military rank structure thats being used in game.

[Zacharai]

I'm not so sure that "RunningMountain's opinion" is enough to change settled game documentation.

I'm also not sure that "since it's different from Earth" is enough, either.  It's the way that it is.  Probably originally a mistake from someone who wanted to copy a generic Earth military structure.

I very strongly agree with Red Ranger in this -- if there is going to be a change, make it inventive and new.  And, while you're at it, make some neat traditions that have 'always been around', get the imms to approve them, and then put them up in your clan documentation.  Please, try to make your ideas creative, and not sound like a 13-year-old with a ninja fetish.

[amoeba]

How about just leave it alone because the matter is rather trivial, and does not affect gameplay, only some peoples sensiblities.  I'm sure there are more importaint items to spend time on.

[RunningMountain]

I don't care really. Just a pet peeve that the RL military structure is being used. And is used in other clans, then it's skewed in a small little way in just one clan. Again I really don't care just pointed it out and spurred some discussion on it. I think the ranks could use an overhaul for most clans. Instead of just using the normal real life military terms.  

Oh and the "This is not earth" answer is pretty stupid. Considering "This is not Earth" then why are you using the ranks from real life militaries?

[mansa]

How about just leave it alone because the matter is rather trivial, and does not affect gameplay, only some peoples sensiblities.  I'm sure there are more importaint items to spend time on.

It does affect game play when we use 'earth' terms for 'rank' and then not use the correct 'rank' name for the position.

People have said this before, but if you start calling 'privates' by a rank of 'general' in Zalanthas, so that every 'private' is 'general', you are going to confuse players who are trying to role-play.

I think that if we use the 'earth' name for it, we should use the 'earth' term and rank for it.  If we don't, I think we are making a huge typo, and creating a mess for people to try and clean up.  Why are we making it (and leaving it) a confusing mess?

How about a better and extreme example.  We call every child, 'faggot', when refering to them, because 'faggot' in Zalanthas is the term for 'child'.

Obviously this will create a problem for gameplay.  To repeat what Red Ranger said, we should either fix the typo, or create special terms for the military positions, so that don't have a misunderstanding connotation.

[amoeba]

How about just leave it alone because the matter is rather trivial, and does not affect gameplay, only some peoples sensiblities.  I'm sure there are more importaint items to spend time on.

It does affect game play when we use 'earth' terms for 'rank' and then not use the correct 'rank' name for the position.

People have said this before, but if you start calling 'privates' by a rank of 'general' in Zalanthas, so that every 'private' is 'general', you are going to confuse players who are trying to role-play.

I think that if we use the 'earth' name for it, we should use the 'earth' term and rank for it.  If we don't, I think we are making a huge typo, and creating a mess for people to try and clean up.  Why are we making it (and leaving it) a confusing mess?

How about a better and extreme example.  We call every child, 'faggot', when refering to them, because 'faggot' in Zalanthas is the term for 'child'.

Obviously this will create a problem for gameplay.  To repeat what Red Ranger said, we should either fix the typo, or create special terms for the military positions, so that don't have a misunderstanding connotation.

It is a trivial issue, it does not affect gameplay. (see I can use bold too  :shock: )  The argument about using earth terms is specious at best.  We already use an odd set of verbage in the game.  Even the arguement of this rank structure is different for this one clan than it is for the others has limited merit.  For example, a "Technical Segeant" in the Air Force and a "Technical Sergent" in the Army are... get this...on different levels in the rank structure.  For the anally inclinded, Tech Sergeant is no longer a rank in the Army, the point still stands.

Sometime I think you guys like to argue for the sake of argument.

[mansa]

Mistakes in Earth terms vs Zalanthas terms have affected my[/i][/u] gameplay, specifically when I am in leadership roles.

[Delirium]

Hint: Research ingame what those ranks correspond to insofar as status and power within and without the clan.  Don't just let your character make assumptions based on what you know.  Problem solved!

[mansa]

Hint: Research ingame what those ranks correspond to insofar as status and power within and without the clan.  Don't just let your character make assumptions based on what you know.  Problem solved!

Tell that to every new player and they'll stop playing the game because everything is too confusing and too hard.  We -want- to make things less confusing.

[Hexxaex]

We -want- to make things less confusing.

We do?  I thought new players were for pwning...?

In all seriousness, I've seen corporal as a lower rank than sergeant in other clans, but it's probably different from clan to clan.  I've also seen other clans spell "Sergeant" as "Serjeant" or something.  I can learn to live with it.

[waroth]

I can see how it would become confusing to new players, but I would think only briefly until they are shown or told that corporal in the Arm of the Dragon is higher than Corporal.  

 Of course we all have our opinion and that is what this GDB is for.  I don't think we should get mad at each other for expressing ours.

 I personally could care less if it is changed or not.  Honestly, I'd like to see it changed to be correct according to the RL US Army structure which is what I thionk it was intended to be.  However, once I saw that is was backwards I think I thought on it all of five minutes before I accepted it and moved on.

 Maybe one of the Imms will take interest in changing it pretty soon.  If not, I think they take applications for staff every year or so, sooooo.....send in an app to be an Imm and change it yourself.

[Maybe42or54]

I know that having those as RL ranks helps newbies, since they don't have to memorize so many new words also besides the ones they have to.
I would still like it if one of the city's ranks were changed to be more Armageddon.

And I don't like how I keep seeing a response of "Too much work for too little benefit." (rotating desert rooms for one, this for another.)

And no, I havn't forgotten that imms do things when they want to.
I'm thankful, but..
Every little bit helps, huh?
Since some of the biggest things wont be fixed for a long time to come (Crimcode? That awesome Templar going to morning devotions every morning with all the echoes?) They'd probably be some things bragged about to my coworkers. My mud is so awesome, I can walk through the same room ten times in a desert and like it since the desert is a month long trip from side to side and everytime the room is different.

Sounds awesome to me.

[bloodfromstone]

Hint: Research ingame what those ranks correspond to insofar as status and power within and without the clan. Don't just let your character make assumptions based on what you know. Problem solved!

'Find out IC' isn't always an appropriate response. Most people would probably have an idea of what the military ranks are like, since (using Allanak as an example) the militia, Wyverns, and Byn all use such rankings and all hang out in bars and make themselves well known. Running around asking things that are common knowledge usually ends up getting you made to feel like your character is somehow mentally retarded, when all you were doing was trying to find out IC.

[RunningMountain]

Heh. Find out IC? Click on the link I posted in the beginning of the thread.

[Halaster]

After reading more of this thread, I'm starting to agree that it can't hurt too much to change it, because I do agree that if enough people are used to things being a certain way in RL and it's just all whacked here, it's going to make them have a difficult time RP'ing it.  But, if I'm going to bother with it, I don't want to just change it, I want to be a little more creative and come up with something new and fun.

So, having said that, if you have a suggestion for a rank system for the AoD soldiers, please email me (don't don't post it here) and I'll pick one (or mix and match) that works.

[Ritley]

Sure doesn't sound like a top rank to me. And anyone who is remotely familiar with military rank structure thats being used in game.

I am familiar with it, but Corporals on Arm in the Militia seem to create a certain feeling Sergents can't. After all not all Rankings are the same.

[RunningMountain]

Go watch platoon. You'll have a newfound respect for Sergeant.