Religion and the Dragon

[halfhuman]

I'm writing this topic because I haven't the slightest clue how the religion works in this game.  I've searched the help files, but I haven't found anything to clear things up.

Also, the Dragon.  Is the dragon a physical being, or is it a metaphore for war and strife? I thought it was a physical being up until I read this sentance:

Many Ages later, Highlord Tektolnes of Allanak made an appearance as a dragon when he destroyed the dwarven forces that besieged Allanak, early in the 19th Age.

Anyways, I know a few other people that play arm who wonder the same thing, and we don't feel that the help files give a clear enough idea of how it all works.

[Anonymous]

As far as the dragon being a metaphor, the history page indicates he was real.

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/timeline.cgi[/url]"]
The Dragon arrives at Gol Krathu and quickly seizes power. There is little resistance. Some accounts indicate that the lands were given over to the Dragon in a dark pact of betrayal. Servants of the Dragon roam the earth, crushing all opposition.

As far as religion, I've always understood the lack of uniform religion in Zalanthas to be a purposeful thing.  The Zalanthan 'gods' walk the earth and have powerful and frightening agents in the two major cities.  Hard to imagine something more real than that.  Beyond tribal rituals and public devotions in Allanak I've not heard much in the way of religion.

[Bestatte]

Theoretically there exists such creatures as Wyverns (which the Borsail Wyverns are named after). If I understand it correctly, they are related in some fashion to the species of beast known as dragons.

There is -also- "the dragon" that is what you're referring to, that's referenced in the game history. Whether the wyverns are actually related to -that- dragon, or if Tek is just some kind of freaky shape-shifter, I have no idea.

I'm not sure what the general population would know of dragons, other than the big metal one outside Allanak (not IC info - it's what your character would know if you started in the recommended city with your first PC).

But they'd know that at the very least, the symbol of a dragon exists, and a general idea of what it looks like since there are many items in the game that depict them with embroidery or carving or painting.

[Angela Christine]

Armageddon isn't Darksun, but this Darksun reference might give you some ideas about dragons:  http://www.rpgunited.com/product/darksun/tsr2408.html

Just a thought.

Angela Christine

[Bestatte]

Also as far as religion goes, you have the two god-kings, one representing each city. Muk Utep in Tuluk, and Tektolnes in Allanak.

They're not prayed to, but they are worshipped and spoke of in reverent tones.

The only "public" worship I know of is in Allanak, where there are "morning devotions" (another thing your character would know about upon showing up in the game)

If you're a tribal (elf or human), you may or may not have your own tribe's religion, with or without its own set of gods, but generally city people wouldn't know much, if anything, about that.

The last bit of "religion" isn't really religion, it's an acknowledgement of the existence of the elements. While they're not gods or even demi-gods, they are somewhat personified and given names - such as Suk-Krath, Drov, and Vivadu. You'd definitely want to look at the various docs about those though, because mentioning them in the wrong context could get your character rather dead.

[halfhuman]

Okay. Let me see if I get this. There are two Highlords, each of which are talked of as if they were gods, but not actually gods.

Then, there's different elemental planes:
Drov being darkness and evil.
Suk-Krath being the sun.
Ruk is basically the earth.
Elkros is energy and lightning.
Nilaz is an extra-planar, anti-element type thing.
Vivandu is water.

So, Elkros, Vivandu, Drov;  all of these aren't Gods but just planes, like the fire plane, water plane, material plane and all that jazz in a Forgotten Realms novel?

Am I right in exclaiming "Krath!" in the place of "God!"?

[Jorlain]

You've got the basic jist of it.

And yes, "Krath" is substituted for "God."

You can see a compilation of Zalanthas curses if you go to this link http://www.armageddon.org/help/index_frames.html and go to the helpfile "Swear".

Good luck, and welcome to Armageddon.

[Agent_137]

Also keep in mind the average commoner won't know the elemental planes.

[DrunkenSalarr]

Okay. Let me see if I get this. There are two Highlords, each of which are talked of as if they were gods, but not actually gods.

The highlords are God-Kings, and yours is powerful and all-knowing enough to be indistinguishable from a god in the traditional sense.  The major difference is that your god lives in that big tower or that big pyrimid over there and you know it.  The thought that your god has ever been anything other than a god would never have even crossed your mind.  If you live in 'Nak, the thought that your god took the form of a dragon to save your worthless piece of hide is humbling enough to remove any doubt of his power, and, as a reminder of this event there is a very -very- large chunk of metal, formed into the shape of a dragon in your very city.

Then, there's different elemental planes:
Drov being darkness and evil.
Suk-Krath being the sun.
Ruk is basically the earth.
Elkros is energy and lightning.
Nilaz is an extra-planar, anti-element type thing.
Vivandu is water.

So, Elkros, Vivandu, Drov;  all of these aren't Gods but just planes, like the fire plane, water plane, material plane and all that jazz in a Forgotten Realms novel?

A commoner would know these names as personifications of what they are.  Just as we use "mother earth", "father time", and "mother nature".  As was stated before, commoners know nothing of planes, and nor would they want to, as it borders on knowldge of magick, something no one wants to be accused of, especially in certain cities.

Also you typically believe that The Dragon does exist, especially in Tuluk, most recient siting of The Dragon.  If you are from Allanak, you would know (read "believe to the point that it is knowldge") that The Dragon is different from your god, who simply took the form of -a- dragon so that your ansestors, and therefore you, could live.  If you live in Tuluk, this may or may not be the case, as I am sure there would be some debate on this subject, though not openly (at least for very long before people realized what they were talking about) as people in Tuluk tend to disappear for saying, or even thinking, things that might be considered treason/blasphme (there is no difference between the two).  See 1984 by George Orwell.

[Xamminy]

Um, I don't think anyone calls Muk Utep a 'Highlord' although he does occupy a very similar niche to Tektolnes in his city.  Muk Utep is the Sun King, and Tektolnes is the Highlord.  These are titles, but not for the positions, for the individuals.

[Spoon]

I swear I read somewhere in the docs that religion is outlawed in the major cities. I seem to remeber it was in some 'what you would know as a commoner' type document. It also explained that commoners could not read or write.

However, I can't find it or remeber anything else about it, so I probably made it up. :oops:

[Xamminy]

Religion in Allanak is worship of the Highlord in the form of morning and evening devotions.

Religion is Tuluk has had people banished or dissappeared.

Religion elsewhere depends on who you're talking about.  I mean, different tribes have different religions, not to say that any of them are true.

[Lazloth]

However, I can't find it or remeber anything else about it, so I probably made it up. :oops:

quickstart[/url]"]There is no religion in the city-states other than the worship of the Sorcerer-Kings, who do not tolerate other gods.

[ashyom]

Quickstart

There is no religion in the city-states other than the worship of the Sorcerer-Kings, who do not tolerate other gods.

Personally, I think that could be phrased better, since there are, technically, no gods in this world.  There are, however, faiths who might believe gods exist (certain tribes do, for instance), but whether that's true, nobody knows for sure 100%.  It probably would be clearer to state that neither city-states tolerate other faiths being practiced in their domain.

I too thought there was another source that stated something similar, but can't seem to find it.
-Ashyom

[JollyGreenGiant]

Lazloth is fast on the trigger with those links.

[Anonymous]

Lazloth is fast on the trigger with those links.

Lazloth long ago shunned corporeal form and now dwells as an disembodied spirit represented by the rolleyes emoticon.  Angela Christine's recent proclivity for using that icon has generated enough spirit power that Lazloth can resume speed linking.

[halfhuman]

So, I just shouldn't mention the planes or whatever at all. Except Suk-krath.  But, If I were to mention them, I'm curious as to how I would do it.
Father Ruk instead of mother earth?
Suk-Krath instead of the sun.
Would I ever use Vivandu in any conversation about water?
I could say "Go to Drov" instead of "Go to Hell."

Would I ever have a cause to mention Nilaz or Elkros?

[Bestatte]

First - just a minor correction. It's vivadu, not vivandu. No "n."

That's out of the way - now to the question:

Thing is, people do acknowledge the existence of the elements. They call them by those names. What they don't understand enough to acknowledge, is the elemental planes.

To the average commoner, drov = dark, shadow, death. Drov != some plane of eternal darkness wherein dwells all entities of shadow.

To the average commoner, Suk-Krath = the sun, and the symbol of fire in general. Suk-krath != the plane in which fire originates.

It might sound like there isn't any real difference, and maybe there isn't. But even if it's just a matter of semantics, it's how the general public perceives it.

I hope I explained that right.

[Marauder Moe]

Non-magicker commoners would mostly invoke the names of Krath, Whira, and Drov.

Krath being the sun and an approximate substitute for "god" in common speach.  "Oh Krath!" would be a suitable expletive.

Whira is used representing chance or luck.  "Whira be with you" would mean "good luck".

Drov is more representative of death rather than hell.  "Drov's embrace" or "with Drov" are ways of talking about death.  Some people use "Void" for hell (I don't think I'veheard people say "Nilaz"), but its not that common.


I think the key thing to remember is that these things are used as superstition, not religion.  Anything more detailed than expletives or colloquials is bordering on discussions of magick.

[halfhuman]

Okay.  Before this post I thought that Drov, Suk-Krath, Vivadu, Whira, all those were gods. They should really add something about religion to the help files. I have a friend who also thought this.

So, I can use Whira like Lady Luck, and Drov like Singapore, or New Jersey. I'll have to incorperate that so that I can better able commit it to memory.

Another question: What do I worship if I'm not from Allanak or Tuluk? What if I'm from Luirs Outpost, or Red Storm? Who would I worship then?

[Bestatte]

Red Storm has "the Sand Lord" who may or may not be a fictitious entity.

Luir's don't need no fekkin god - they're Kurac.

[Spoon]

The shabby, long-haired Kuraci says: "Hey mate, you want to see the creator?"

The hairy, unkempt Kuraci says, nodding once: "Y...y...yeah man...."

The shabby, long-haired Kuraci beams a wide grin, passing over the spice-pipe.


Damn hippies.

[Comrade Canadia]

Why -isn't- there religion on armag?  I've never received a satisfactory explaination for this.  I mean, WE ACTUALLY HAVE GODS (demigods?  who cares, they're ultra powerful).... and they PERSONALLY RUN CITIES.  There's lip service paid to the Sun King and Highlord by most people, and actual worship on the part of the templars and some of the nobility but it's all about controlling the commoners.

Religion is one of THE most potent forms of control over a society you can have and these are supposed to be pretty heavy duty totalitarian regimes... why WOULDN'T they employ religious fervor to their advantage?  Any thoughts on this?

-Dave

[Rhyden]

CC, I'd say this is probably because the lords of both cities would strike down anybody who has faith in anybody other than themselves.

But that's not gonna stop me from making a character who believes in an alternative religious source who's gonna gather followers and build a temple.

[Comrade Canadia]

Nono, let me clarify.

Religion BASED around the Sorceror Kings!  THEY are the demigods.  THEY are the ones who should be demanding worship.  The fact that most Allanaki citizens barely pay the GOD WHO RUNS THEIR CITY lip service strikes me as very odd is all.

Now that I'm clear, explainations!

*grin*

-Dave