Religion and the Dragon

[halfhuman]

I like the religion system in Armageddon, now that I understand it better.  So, in a city you worship the ruler of the city, basically.  And if you're a tribal, you worship a rock or whatever it is that your clan believes in.

I think it's pretty neat stuff.  Very untraditional, just like the rest of Armageddon.

[Marauder Moe]

Well, a large portion (if not majority) probably DOES pay lip-service to their God-king by attending morning devotions, or at least uttering a few morning prayers and praises.  For PCs, though, this has gone out of style a bit.  Playability-wise, it IS a bit inconvenient to go to the gates or the temple every morning.

Other than that, though, its a religion based on fear.  People obey their templars because at a whim said templar can channel Muk/Tek's wrath and destroy you in one of many horrible ways.  When you have power like that, you don't really need a rigid religious structure or anything.

[Comrade Canadia]

Killing everyone who opposes you, even theoretically is oppression and forcing obedience... NOT religion.  There's not even a fine line between the two.  There IS no worship of the Sorceror Kings, and attending dawn prayers is not enforced and only half-assedly encouraged because of the inconvenience.

We're talking about uneducated, superstitious illiterates who have an ACTUAL GOD running their city.  PCs who venerate either Sorceror King (SK)are almost always an exception to the rule - the only characters I see who consistently worship either SK are templars.  Most nobles tend to pay their SK some heavy lip service, but it rarely get to the point of active worship.

Dawn prayers, and saying 'Walk in his Shadow' don't really count as serious organised religion.  The only societies I know of that are less religious than Zalanthas are a number of modern day first world countries!  That's... just weird.  

Religion, before the advent of mass media was THE most powerful form of societal control.  'Do as I say or you're going to hell.'  It WORKED and there wasn't even proof of the existance of the gods people were told to follow.  Now we're talking ACTUAL GODS - and ones who DEMAND obedience... and yet they don't demand worship?  Just a bit of lip service is sufficient?

It's a pretty much proven fact that if a society's leader shoves an ideology down the populace's throat they WILL start buying it.  'The magickers will come for you if you don't worship Utep.'  'The hell-pits of Suk Krath await you unless you venerate Tektolnes and obey the templarate.'  It WORKS and always has worked.  And... well, I think it'd add a great deal of flavour to the world, especially with regards to how the north and south differ from one another.

Beyond THAT... it'd really make a visible difference between citizens and non-citizens.  Northerners and southerners would ACTUALLY consider each other heathens.  Patriotism goes pretty far, but religious fervor?  Awesome.  So much more opportunity for conflict and to REALLY show the differences.  

I just think this is an absolutely awesome and powerful plot device that the mud has intentionally ignored since its inception and... well, I don't really understand why.  

It doesn't make -sense- to me.

-Dave

[Marauder Moe]

Religion, before the advent of mass media was THE most powerful form of societal control.

On Earth, maybe.  On Zalanthas there is sorcery.

Anyway, like I said, if you read the room descriptions and echos during morning devotions you'll see that there ARE a lot of virtual citizens worshiping.  And also like I said, this aspect of society has been played down in the PC populace.  Is it worth it?  Well, all I know is that I'm glad none of my citizen characters were ever hasseled because they didn't go to morning devotions every 90 RL minutes.

No, its not a very organized religion.  But, if you openly practiced any other beliefs you WILL be harshly persecuted.  That doesn't sound like any modern first-world countries to me.

I think, though, you may be getting bogged down in textbook definitions of religion.  Those do not apply here.  Other than the fact that on earth they mean two different things, why is there a difference between religious zeal and patriotism?  Government and god are one and the same.  Obeying the laws of the city is doing the will of your god.  Serving your city or your betters is serving your god, be you a slave building walls or captain of the militia.  When you think of it that way, doesn't the world seem to have a bit more religion in it?

[Trenidor]

You know...you could always worship:

Trenidor, God of Sneakiness
Trenidor, God of L33tness
and as always
Trenidor, God of eat your brain
The Holy Trigroupage!

! ARG !

Oh How I wish I still had that guy....

[Rhyden]

I just worship the gods Sanvean and Nessalin. It works out suprisingly well for my characters.

[Comrade Canadia]

Anyway, like I said, if you read the room descriptions and echos during morning devotions you'll see that there ARE a lot of virtual citizens worshiping. And also like I said, this aspect of society has been played down in the PC populace. Is it worth it? Well, all I know is that I'm glad none of my citizen characters were ever hasseled because they didn't go to morning devotions every 90 RL minutes.

Oh please.  First off, room descriptions of virtual citizens only has bearing on the game if it reflects into the actual play.  There is no actual religion in Allanak, and a few lines of a room description doesn't change that.  No PC actions center around it, very few NPC actions center around it.

Secondly, screw morning devotions.  They aren't feasible in a game like this - I mean I don't mind their existance but I don't want my PC going to morning devotions every 90 minutes either.  What I'd like to see more of is a change in the way the average Zalanthian views the world.  None of this western crap, these religions - especially in Allanak would be based around FEAR.  Muk Utep would probably be a little less overtly violent, but subtly more threatening if you stray from the path.

Again, I'm not talking about western organised religion here.  Tektolnes and Muk Utep are not Jesus in any way whatsoever.  Religion is a VERY BROAD term.  I'm studied it a lot and I'm personally an atheist so I think I have a fairly objective view of the entire concept.  What I'm talking aobut is the SKs enforcing obedience from the citizenry by making the citizens -believe- that it is the best thing for them to do spiritually... and physically.  

Not ONLY will the templars kill you if you disobey, but your soul will be in peril - or something along those lines.  We can get way more complex if we want to persue the idea.

AND

Sorcery does not cancel out the idea of religion, in fact it INCREASES it.  It is LIVING PROOF that the SKs are all powerful - and since your average citizen knows dick all about what an SK can do... it makes the fear of what will happen to them if they disobey that much more visceral.  I mean... are the SKs so mindlessly blunt that they're incapable of using such a subtle and powerful form of control?  Homey don't play dat.  

We don't need people going to morning rituals more - that's not what this is about.  Other forms of worship that aren't as oocly irritating are just as feasible.

-Dave

[ashyom]

Does that mean you ignore the virtual world?  You're incorrect in saying there's no religion in Allanak (or Tuluk).  Just because you don't see PCs  incorporating it in their lives doesn't mean there isn't any religion amongst the Pbase.  We staff often see PCs who thinks or prays in their thinks - or sometimes verbally.

Nobody on staff is saying that you must attend devotions with your PCs.  We staff do realise that it's inconvenient and tedious to insist the players go worship every 90 minutes, so it's one of the few situations where playability trumps realism.  That doesn't mean we can ignore that element, however.  As Marauder Moe stated, the virtual devotation is hinted at in the room descs, and by no means should they be ignored.

Summed up:  Let me see if I have this right.  You think that commoners PCs should be extremely religious, but not go to devotions?  Or that we should ignore the religious aspect of this gameworld just because it's inconvenient for you?  I suspect I may be missing the meat of your post, but that's what you seem to be saying.
-Ashyom

[Comrade Canadia]

You're sort of avoiding the question that I've been posing here by picking at the inconsistencies in my argument *grin*  But I'll at least explain the inconsistencies.

Does that mean you ignore the virtual world? You're incorrect in saying there's no religion in Allanak (or Tuluk). Just because you don't see PCs incorporating it in their lives doesn't mean there isn't any religion amongst the Pbase. We staff often see PCs who thinks or prays in their thinks - or sometimes verbally.

I reflect and employ the virtual world constantly in my play.  However, I also believe that a few lines of text in one room in Allanak does a pretty poor job of convincing me that your average Allanaki commoner is deeply religious.  You can give me a hundred examples of religious PCs in the north and the south, and, as a -player- I can probably give you a thousand examples of PCs in the north and south who didn't give a damn.

To quickly touch on morning devotions, I personally feel they're a rather poor way of getting any PC to be religious.  Hell, I'd say it -discourages- that sort of behaviour.  Go pray at the statue every ninety minutes?  It's not feasible.  Just because it happens to be the ONLY publically known way to worship doesn't mean it's a good one.  There are limitless other, less inconvenient ways to breathe some religion into either city state - those are what I'm talking about.

Anyways.  Religious PCs are a minority and a commoner venerating her SK is an -option-.  It's not required and it's only vaguely encouraged.  There are no documents on Allanaki or Tuluki religion, and I don't even see the templars themselves really pushing it to any extent.  The virtual world might have the morning devotions going on, but that's it as far as I can tell.

I've been asking a question here - and most of the responses I've received have say 'Sure there's religion!  You're just blind to it.'  Either I'm clinically retarded and I've been completely blind to a massive aspect of every PC and NPC's life in the years I've been playing, or I -do- have a point here.  I hope it's the latter for my own sake.  Anyways, I'll rephrase my question here to make my point as clear as possible.

Religion is cool.  Why don't we have any of note?

-Dave

[Marauder Moe]

Dave,

My answer to your question is "We do".  There is clear evidence of relgion in the vNPC population, I've given you some of my observations about PC religion, and you just had a staff member tell you that there -is- religion in Allanak and Tuluk.  What exactly do you want to see?  How do -your- PCs worship their Highlords?

[ale six]

Please keep in mind that I'm relatively new (I started playing about a month ago), and so I'm sure my own personal experience doesn't really add much, but I've been reading this conversation and wanted to chime in.

My character's gathered over 12 days of playing time in Allanak, and so far I've been physically exposed to religion all of once. As Comrade said, there's not much in the docs about religion, no prayers to either sorceror king, nothing about formal religious structure or anything. All I know is that morning devotions happen every morning and that religious people go to them, but I don't even know what my character should be doing at them besides kneeling and looking devoted.

I don't think anyone is advocating everyone going to morning devotions every morning, but I think what Comrade is saying (and what I'd love to see more of as a newbie) would be some kind of more documented religion, or at least something that could be more visible to players, rather than us having to virtually assume it.

Please don't eat me.

[Bestatte]

Some possible ideas for religion in Zalanthas (I'm making this up, I know of absolutely no documentation reflecting any of this stuff):

A commoner in Allanak knows that Tektolnes, the Highlord, is one bad-ass muthafucka. He is also benevolent, because he -could- show up at any moment and kill you in any of several dozen ways without breaking a sweat. But he doesn't - so you're grateful as hell for that.

The commoner also knows that Allanak is smack-dab in the middle of a desert, yet drinkable water is available in the city. All thanks to the grace of the Highlord. The commoner also knows that he could easily be scrab-bait, but thanks - again - to the grace of the Highlord and His Holy Templars and militia, he lives in a walled city, protected against intruders. The exquisite and terrible statue outside the west gate is a constant reminder of the magnitude of Tek's benevolence. If you happen to be facing the other way, his Tower is another reminder, visible throughout the city.

You might invoke his name before you eat, to thank him for your blessings. You might feel resigned when something goes wrong in your life, because obviously it was His will that you failed - and perhaps it was to help you learn an important life's lesson (which you would promptly attempt to learn).

When you are in the process of mating, you might do a little ritual - light a candle or some incense, to thank Tek that you still have your balls, and ask that he bless the mating process so you can spawn healthy children.

There are a myriad of ways you can develop your -own- personal style of religion in Armageddon, and I don't think any of the above would be frowned upon if someone were to add it to their RP.

[Angela Christine]

I think the problem is that none of us actually grew up in Zalanthas.  When encountering a religion for the first time as an adult, it is natural to be detached and play armchair anthroplogist.

When encountering your family's religion as a child, it isn't religion at all: it is simply fact, simply the way the world works.  It doesn't become something seperate from reality, family, science, government, and truth until you encounter something outside the religion like another religion, a person who doesn't believe your religion, a school full of kids with all different religions, a book full of new ideas, etc.  

For people born and raised in Allanak or Tuluk, religion would be deeply engrained into every aspect of daily life.  Most people never leave their home city, so they do not encounter anyone or anything that is not part of their religion, except perhaps the occasional barbarian trader -- and nobody takes those crazy yokels seriously.  They would have no more reason to question the tennents of their faith than you or I would have reason to question electricity.  It isn't just vague faith, it is the way the world works.  An undisputed religion provides as solid an understanding of reality as any provided by observation or science, probably even more solid.  They KNOW absolutely that their vision of reality is correct, there is no occasion to question it.  (They may be wrong, but since there world-view doesn't encourage questioning or testing, there is no framework to even begin to doubt the validity of their beliefs).

That is the problem.  We didn't grow up there, we don't understand their way of life deep in our bones the way a native would.  Worse, most of us are familiar with two world views: one featuring a tempermental but basically benevolent diety (perhaps accompanied by the sense that there is an ongoing battle between good and evil for, of all things, souls) and one featuring the unending pesky questions and doubts of science, and neither of those are particularily useful when trying to visualize the point of view of a native Zalanthan.

A sorcerer-king could be seen as a tempermental but basically benevolent diety, after all, they are what allows civilization in all its fetid glory to exist.  But they certainly have no interest in souls.  What good is a soul?  None.  A soul is a completely useless bit of nonsense.  Like an old testament god they are all for smiting the unfaithful, but the virtues they favor and the vices they condem are alien to us.  

The #1 virtue is obedience.  Obedience doesn't get much play these days, and unquestioning obedience is as likely to be considered a failing as a virtue.  But in a society like Zalanthas, obedience is necessary to life.  

Loyalty is also very big in most of Zalanthas, most people are suspicious of free agents and expect that once you get a grown-up job you will stay with that company for your entire working life (likewise companies are expected to provide their permanent employees with work for their entire lives, and not be laying them off and downsizing at the drop of a hat, the company owes it's workers loyalty as well).  I've heard that Japan is, or was, very big on loyalty too.  

Duty probably comes in near the top too, being tied up with loyalty.  

Collective responsibilty is probably more familiar than individual responsibility.  If you break the law, you're whole family can be punished, and everyone agrees that it is proper that they be punished.  Your family should have done a better job raising and teaching you, if you are a rotten egg then clearly they have failed in their duty.  If you don't meet your quota, then your whole work group is penalized.  Your co-workers should have made sure that you were keeping up with your end of the work, or made sure that the work got done one way or another.  If one of you fails, you have all failed.  Rather like some military organizations opperate, if the mission fails the unit is punished, regardless of which individuals made mistakes.  It is a good system.  You don't have to figure out which individual is guilty, because everyone associated with him is also guilty, so once you know what group is collectively responsible you can punish them all, comfortable in the knowledge that the individual who commited the act is most likely a part of that group.  If you know the criminal is of tribe X, then punnishing anyone of tribe X will do, and if you accidentally punish the wrong people, well, tribe X itself will probably make sure the right people get punished too.  It also saves a lot of time that would otherwise be spent motivating individuals, if one individual isn't pulling his or her weight, then the rest of the group is responsible ot get them in line or else cover for them.  If your cousin doesn't pay his taxes, then it is perfectly legal and reasonable for them to make YOU pay his taxes.  Naturally this system is suspicious of loners.  "You act like a person with no family" would be a way of chastising and insulting a person who behaves poorly.  

(Anyone familiar with Vampire: the Masqurade?  A system like the Path of Humanity and other paths might be useful here.  A hierarchy of sins and description of goals and virtues would be a treat.)

Oh, by the way, I'm not saying that Zalanthans are actually paragons of Obedience, Loyalty, Duty and Collective Responsibility.  Are all Christians really good about loving god and loving their neighbours, and avoiding the Big Ten sins?  Not really.  Even devoted, sincere people will struggle with the ideals of their faith.  If it was easy, what would be the point?  But it does color what sort of people they admire, what sort of acts are considered good, and ideals they strive towards.  Failing to live up to your ideals isn't necessarily hypocracy, sometimes it is just room for improvement.


Angela Christine

[SanityAssassin]

(Anyone familiar with Vampire: the Masqurade?  A system like the Path of Humanity and other paths might be useful here.  A hierarchy of sins and description of goals and virtues would be a treat.)

Good post AC.  I especially liked the above quote.  Since Zalanthan culture/morality/sexuality/etc. is often alien from ours, something like this would be helpful.  It is incredibly useful in Vampire: the Masquerade, where players take the roles of inhuman beings driven by needs that are hard to roleplay correctly.

[Comrade Canadia]

Took me a while to respond to this!  Heh.  ANYWAYS.

AC, I like where you're going - but I can't accept that religion is there... it's just too ingrained for us to notice.  I mean, we play the characters that populate this world.  There's nothing in the game documents or otherwise that describes the ways in which northern and southern characters are religious.  Nothing discourages it - ashyom's words make me think it's sort of encouraged... but there's really nothing of note to show for it.

Yes, there are religious PCs.  No, they are not the norm.  Bring up example after example to show religion in the game, and I (a player) will bring up fifty for your one to show there is not.  The wishy-washy way it exists in the mud doesn't help the game world any.  It simply dilutes it because there are no roleplay constraints on the way people act on... a very important part of character psychology.

I'm talking about institutionalised, documented religion in the game.  Not the OPTION to have religion which one out of every six or so PCs might follow if they feel like it.  That doesn't enrich the game world, it dilutes it.  Of course it doesn't have to be like Christian religion - god, if it was it'd be terrible.  The ideas AC and Bestatte put forward are brainstorming in the right direction.

Again, this all comes down to a basic question... why is religion so loosely defined in the mud?  Why is it not a more powerful force?  All I'm getting is 'There's lots of religion.'  If there is... show me the docs.

-Dave

[halfhuman]

I just worship the gods Sanvean and Nessalin. It works out suprisingly well for my characters.

Behind a berrage of fake, legible coughs the short, fat, shaggy half-human says in sirihish,
 "Suck up! Suck up!"