Policy Changes

[Lazloth]

What happens to that item after that person is dead. It sits in inventory taking up space, nobody else will ever know it is there, nobody else will ever use it.

Moot aside:  I don't believe that's the case.  Many moons earlier, when I'd consider playing Family merchants, custom orders were always presented with caveats that after such-and-such time, designs would transform to public domain.  I've seen similar done.

[Xygax]

I say again...there has been -no- shift towards adding content.  It has become available, and people are taking advantage of that with their characters.  More characters may be sending in new items, yes, but does that mean they're doing it for the hell of it?  Most items serve a specific purpose, either for that character or for the group.  The ones that -are- made for the hell of it...the immortals have -always- been free to say 'no'.

Our contention isn't that player submissions are made "for the hell of it."  Our contention is that they do less to drive plot and entertain the majority of the playerbase than animating NPCs, architecting plots, and running clans does.  I understand (as I mentioned above) that you're particularly frustrated about this issue, Armaddict, but the staff have spent a lot of time thinking about and discussing it, and we're in a better position to determine whether there has been a shift towards adding content.  You have no knowledge of what my e-mail box looks like on a daily basis, or how many custom submissions the average staff member receives, much less whether those submissions have merit.

Now, whether our policy changes will be successful or not remains to be seen.  If they aren't, we'll consider something else.  In the meantime, if you feel that this is a "pretty big 'fuck you'" ...  well, I'll leave out my reply to that.

Finally, in a more recent post, you suggested that actively finding people to interact with, and furthering plots don't equate to roleplay.  I agree.  Roleplay is really more of an internal process, or at least it is on Arm.  It's about portraying a textured, real character that reacts in real ways to his environment.  What I don't see is how that furthers your argument that we need more custom item submissions in the game than the new policy allows.  You can roleplay with all of the things that are in our database now, lacking that one different, new, unique sword isn't going to hamper your roleplay...  is it?  What specific custom items do you NEED to roleplay?  If you can come up with appropriate examples, then maybe those will need to be accounted for by the new policy.

[sarahjc]

If this change was made to -promote- roleplay, sarahjc, than that's exactly the issue.

It's making an ooc change that will drasticly reduce the role-playing options of the players.  It reduces choice in how the game is played.  It sets unreasonable IC guidelines.

It lowers the 'purity' of role-play.

How much Role play is being avoided here.. I don't think its soo much. Infact I think it makes the merchant role much easier. A role that if you haven't noticed.. -nobody- likes to play.  IMO the fact that merchant house PC's no longer have to stress about customs makes things more enjoyable for the role.

And if you really want that super cool item. Find a PC Mastercrafter, tell them what you want, and perhaps they can submit it for their monthly item. Inviting much more roleplay then just "waying" a Pc Merchant and asking, "Is my stuff done yet."

[Marauder Moe]

Yeah, I've seen far too many good merchant PCs retire supposedly from the OOC and IC stress of the job.

[Intrepid]

Armaddict, if it makes you feel any better, how about this:

The staff has been experiencing a high volume of requests for
objects conducive to roleplay and has decided to suspend its
focus on this facet of their activity for three months in favor of
plot and roleplay independent of new object and new clan
construction.  Policy will be reviewed three months from now
for either continuation or amendment.  Thank you for your
patience in this matter.

Sound any better?  I don't think any of the staff are trying to
rape you with a broken glass dildo, nor anyone else.  I don't
think they're attempting to manipulate the way others play
either.  The new policies are nothing more than an experiment
in focusing on a direction the staff would like to go.  Who knows?
Maybe they will be just itching to get back to making items
again.

[sarahjc]

What happens to that item after that person is dead. It sits in inventory taking up space, nobody else will ever know it is there, nobody else will ever use it.

Moot aside:  I don't believe that's the case.  Many moons earlier, when I'd consider playing Family merchants, custom orders were always presented with caveats that after such-and-such time, designs would transform to public domain.  I've seen similar done.

Yes, true, but how often is that design used? And how many custom items are re-useable. I've submitted customs only for the player to die and never even collect the item.

That is a lot of wasted time on my part and my Imms part.

[Ayashah]

Okay, I agree with Armaddict in some of what he says. I also agree that writing up objects do NOT take that much time especially when someone is submitting the object descriptions in full. (sdesc, ldesc, keywords and main) So only on orginial objects that have to be fully written by an imm would really take up a lot of time. There is also a command that can be used to show items of that keyword. (But I imagine typing cloak in that command makes anyone's eyes cross from the amount of them)

So submitted items that are already written up really dont take up that much time unless someone is trying to do 50 of them at once. That being said, if there are items 'made' and not being used, purge or reuse that onum on something new.

Armaddict, if you built, you have to remember how selfish some can be and greedy in demanding things for their personal use. Though you show reserve, and I do too from my time as an imm on another mud, you have to remember how not all can be so polite nor control their want of 'special' things for themselves.

I dont agree with all the policy changes but in the end, this mud belongs to the imms and they ARE being generous in just testing it out and letting opinions come in later on how we, the players whom help make the mud what it is, feel about those changes after trying them out.

Now, onto a question I have. I have been working on a slew of crafting items that are currently lacking IC and both my clan imms know of it though it doesnt really 'directly' benefit their clan. So does this mean the time I spent for the last two rl weeks while I wasnt playing ARM was now a waste or just that I need to go and find an imm sponsor for the project?

[Armaddict]

I already cited examples.  The half-elf armorcrafter.  The cenyrians.  Roles like that will be eliminated.

What's the point of making a high-class armorcrafter who can only make what the current coding allows.  What if a dwarf has a -focus- of improving armor as a whole?

It isn't about not being able to have the buff ass sword.  It's about not having the -choice- anymore to try and make progress in certain areas.

Yes, your inbox may be full of useless submissions.  But, like I said...all they require is a single word.  "No."  However, you have to realize that almost -every- submission is an addition to the game.  Not in content, but in role-play.

This change takes away from -personal- progression of characters (the real fun of the game, really), and -forces- everyone to fall in and progress plots for everyone.  Now, that jeweler who really doesn't give a fuck about that plot will have to get involved, just so that their character still possesses goals.

Just because people start to take advantage of the abilities allowed by the staff's own creations, the crafting code, to add different facets to characters and groups throughout the known world, does -not- mean that they are shifting away from role-play -just- to start making items.

I -am- very frustrated with this issue, because I think it damages the integrity of the game itself.  You make a character with your own ideas in mind that further the game world, make it move in a certain direction as to -your- ideas...but your innovations can't be made, because there are too many emails in your inbox?  Yes, there's more work involved, but that is, to my understanding, part of the reason people join the staff, yes?  To further the game world.

As I said, I haven't made a custom order in a long time.  I won't be losing much in most of my characters.  But occasionally, I -do- have characters that put forth the time to try to make a change, and now these changes cannot be reflected because that character didn't happen to be involved in certain projects.

I realize I'm the minority here, and that a single player's opinions do nothing.  But I'm saying now.  This will make individual characters less fun to play unless they actively join a plot that they may or may not want to.  And I think that removes some enjoyability of the game, knowing that people are going to be 'forced' into certain niches within the game.

It's obvious that my opinions aren't going to bear any impact.  But I still feel that this change will ultimately remove from the game, in all of the -small- facets of role-play, rather than add to it through it's increased immortal participation in plots.  Why?  Because immortals still can't be on all the time for that increased participation, and now people will have less to think about, personally, with their character during those off times.

[Xerokine]

After reading the many posts this thread and the new policies have attracted, I find myself in agreement with Armaddict. Not that crafting at this point in my character has occured, I had thoughts of specific creations I would want my character to be able to do years later down the road. Now, with this new policy I will be unable to complete those ideas and plans. Armaddict has some very valid points in any case and you all must be able to see them.

[Laeris]

Okay, I agree with Armaddict in some of what he says. I also agree that writing up objects do NOT take that much time especially when someone is submitting the object descriptions in full. (sdesc, ldesc, keywords and main) So only on orginial objects that have to be fully written by an imm would really take up a lot of time. There is also a command that can be used to show items of that keyword. (But I imagine typing cloak in that command makes anyone's eyes cross from the amount of them)

You might think so, but that's not the case.  I can think of very, very few items that have been submitted to me that I considered acceptable for implementation into the game without some serious rewriting.  In these cases, it can often take more time because you now have to rewrite the description so that it contains correct spelling and grammar while still attempting to remain faithful to the spirit of the item that players submitted.

Aside from this, the staff member still has to fiddle with all of the flags on the item, making sure that the materials and weight and cost are appropriate.  Some players include these things in their submissions, but many do not and many that do submit them do so with values that are completely out of whack.  While for me, putting in an item might not take hours and hours, it still takes at least twenty or thirty minutes before I'm comfortable with it.  If it's a Storyteller that's doing the work, they then have to submit it to a HL+ for approval.  That's an additional amount of time put into a single item.

And as for a find command for items in the database, you're correct.  But it still takes a considerable amount of time to go through what is really a hugely vast database.

[Armaddict]

So...really...it's just too much of a hassle to deal with.

All I expect, is that after this...the immortals better be a -lot- more visible in working with their clans and the game world.  Otherwise, it will be pretty clear that some things said here weren't true.

[Bestatte]

Interesting policies. I'll be even more interested to see the results when the three months is up. That's all I have to say about this.

[Mar]

About scars/tattoos/this kind of changes:

In its core, this idea is also not bad...however, restricting this to a PC's lifetime means that two year PC that started at age 13 is going to have a pretty awkward time.
Why not limit this to once per three RL months, instead?

I agree with that. Twice per X RL months or once per X days of playing char Y would be a bit better, IMHO.

[Rindan]

I personally think that the policy changes could be interesting.  I was an RP wiz on another MUD years back, and I recall the constant special requests to be the most annoying part.  I can't speak for the staff, but I know that when I took up the position I had in my mind a number of things that I was driven to do.  I did those things for a couple of days... then I spent a lot of time keeping up with the backlog of requests.  A month later my grand plans were pretty much over.

The only thing I saw in the policy changes that made me balk a little was the part about not opening up new player clans.  I hope that is not a hard and steadfast rule.  I can understand making it a hard rule that such clans can't request anything, but I hope there is nothing in the policy that would prevent the staff from throwing in a hand if they find the cause to be worthy.  Namely, if a leader rises up and creates a stable organization that is adding to the game, I hope that there is nothing to prevent an imm from deciding to help that group move forward.

Otherwise, I like the changes.  They are a little Draconian right now, but I think it might have a purifying effect on people.  It can give the staff a chance to refocus and put things in priority.  After the three months, perhaps some of the restrictions could be reconsidered.  I don't think that a three month break is going to cause the MUD to go to hell.  

I personally don't think that special item creation is a very large part of Armageddon RP.  True, some people are going to feel the pain and some people's RP will be hurt.  Any change is going to hurt someone.  It can't be helped.  However, I think that the potential gain is far greater then the potential hurt.  Consider that instead of having a staff member working on a single item that my or may not help the RP flow in the game, that staff member might now be animating NPCs for a wider audience.  Not to poke at anyone, but I think that the people this is going to hurt are the 'elite'.  I don't mind the elite of the game getting an extra hand so long as they are spreading the RP love around, but to be honest I think that playing to the wider audience, which in general gets by very well without special items, is more beneficial for the MUD.  If this change means that the chances of a the Kuraci imm sending an agent into Allanak with spice hidden in his boot and making that agent talk his way past animate guards is more likely, or it is means that the Byn will get more custom exciting missions, I am all for this.

[Adhira]

All I expect, is that after this...the immortals better be a -lot- more visible in working with their clans and the game world. Otherwise, it will be pretty clear that some things said here weren't true.

Actually, I'd have to say I hope not to be. I'd rather you didn't know that you were in the middle, or the end, or the side-show of an immortal facilitated plot.

That you don't -always- realise that the character who's doing thingywhatsit is actually my NPC that I'm using to add an extra dimension to the clan.

What I totally agree with is the issue that this may bring about some changes, I think this is going to be an interesting time to see what effect this has on the game world.

[Xygax]

So...really...it's just too much of a hassle to deal with.

All I expect, is that after this...the immortals better be a -lot- more visible in working with their clans and the game world.  Otherwise, it will be pretty clear that some things said here weren't true.

What do you think we're lying about?

[Sanvean]

I'm glad to see all this debate, which I appreciate. As I mentioned earlier, this isn't something the staff decided on hastily, but took a lot of deliberation, and built into the plan is the chance to reassess it in three months.

To reply to some of the questions that have been asked:

Publishing a list of items for merchants for the houses is not impossible and has been discussed.  It is up to the individual staff handling clans to decide how they want to address the issue of letting their merchants know what they have.

If something already exists in the database, you can probably get it through a merchant, with the obvious exception of some quest items.  If it doesn't, you can no longer go the route of writing it up and ordering it.  The database is plenty big, and we have items ranging from the arcane to the plebian, including severed fingers, lacy nightgowns, and purple dumplings.  I do not think a strange item will scream out "quest quest" to anyone that sees it any more than they currently do.  

Frankly, there are a ton of headaches surrounding special orders, including players hassling merchants, wanting things that are very little different than existing items, wanting things that are incongruous, etc.   Anything that brings down the numbers of submissions that are badly written, unnecessary, anachronistic, or ill-conceived, or which reduces the amount of emails going back and forth demanding to know why the Kadian merchant hasn't delivered their item or threatening trade war because the Salarr delivered a bone shortsword instead of a long bone shortsword is, in my opinion, well worth it.

Fleshing out crafting is something that depends on a staff member driving it.  I believe Gilvar and some others will post calls for the crafts they want to work with, and Raesanos has also said he will work with them.  If cooking is posted, you are welcome to submit cooking recipes.  If you are interested in Zalanthan cuisine, you might find my post asking for seasonings of interest.   You can also submit recipes with the idea command, which I encourage the use of.

I totally agree that crafts that need fleshing out should be; I hope that staff members will step up and work with specific ones, as I am doing with brewing.  We created that page as a blog so everyone could easily and quickly update it as they needed.  That page will be swapped in for the current Projects page.  If you have a crafting project that you're working on, I suggest emailing mud and/or Raesanos and we will try to find someone to work with you.  I sympathize with the pain of losing work, but I am not sure that spending time on something automatically obliges us to put it in, even though this has been the ongoing, and often mistaken, assumption demonstrated in the past.

Mastercrafter is defined in my post.  It's someone with a sufficiently high percentage in that skill that they can make something specialized.  You can email mud to find out if you qualify.  One item per crafter per month.

If you see a clan-related gap, you are welcome to point it out to the associated staff members, or to email mud about it.  Wait for someone to say they will work on it before creating it; this also means player effort doesn't go wasted or feeling unappreciated when we don't put it in.  This has been a serious problem in the past - people send in things without checking whether they're needed beforehand, and that ends up being a waste of their time or a sore point when their intricate, 40 room,  creation doesn't go in immediately.

To reply to some of the points that have been made:

Part of the rationale behind this is to allow the staff to prioritize projects.  The current projects blog, which should acquire more posts as additional staffers fill in their own projects, is our way of saying: these are the things we are currently working on.  If you have other ideas, you're welcome to bounce them off staff, but don't assume we will automatically put them in.  I appreciate people wanting to contribute and will continue to celebrate their efforts in the Weekly Update.  However, we're trying to steer those efforts to be the most useful, and appreciate your cooperation in that attempt.

This is in no shape denying support for players, and I'm mystified by the notion that this is intended to say "fuck you" to anyone.  This is intended to move immortal energy to something that affects a broad range of players rather than specialized individuals or sets.  There are staff members handling independent players as well as specific clans.  This is indeed intended to facilitate and promote roleplay, and it's something we believe will benefit the game overall.  

This policy does not lower the variety of items in the game in any way, and I'm mystified as well as to how anyone can assert that.  We are not taking away any items, and there will still be items produced for specific projects.

Running a MUD is an ongoing process, and over the course of the last decade, we've made a lot of changes.  We're testing this one and seeing how it works.  Hence the "we will re-evaluate in three months" line that appears repeatedly in that post.

You can still submit items/NPCs/rooms/etc.  In order to make sure they a) get used, and b) are the best use of our time, we are asking that you adhere to certain guidelines.

Many people's points seem to revolve around the "Yes, I understand you would like to work on your own projects first, but before you start that, couldn't you put in these three objects for me?" and the answer is, no.  There are a LOT of you out there, and many of you are asking for special attention, time, and  energy. All of the staff only has so much time in the day, and for the 57th bajillion time - this is a volunteer effort.  No one gets paid for it, no one gets fame or glory for it, and at a guess I would say that staff sees a whole lot more nastiness than niceness.  I have a vested interest in keeping the staff happy and working on the game, and will continue to try to accomplish that.

I sponsored the Cenyrians.  That involved a lot of time in terms of email, special items were needed, and in the end it didn't seem to me that enough was added to the game to merit the amount of time required.  This is one of the reasons I don't sponsor special roles anymore - I've given it a good shot, and it's a usually unappreciated effort that takes time that I would rather spend on other projects.  I understand that my decision displeases some people who would like me to continue sponsoring roles, but the fact of the matter is that my time is valuable enough to me that I want  to use it elsewhere.  This is my choice as an individual, and trying to make me feel guilty because I'm not willing to give up time to individuals rather than the game overall is not going to work.

All I expect, is that after this...the immortals better be a -lot- more visible in working with their clans and the game world.

Or what?  Will you call the Better MUD Bureau on us?  Perhaps you could demand your money back.  I find the arrogance and egotism in a statement like this one of the best arguments for this policy.  We don't sit around thinking of ways to screw the players over, or enhance our characters, or god knows what else.  We spent a lot of time thinking and discussing the matter, it's based on a lot of factors that we can see and a few that players may be able to, and assuming that we're doing it for some nebulous benefit to ourselves and giving us an ultimatum that you'd better see a result because you're entitled to a certain amount of work from the staff is a little on the fucked up side.  Seriously.

[Fnord]

Sounds like you guys put a lot of thought into it. I'll be interested to see how it works out after three months from the IMM and player perspectives.

[SRB]

What about current projects that entail the construction of tribal camps?

Are these now in a sort of 'limbo', or will construction continue if it is in the interest of the staff overseeing it?

Thanks.

[EvilRoeSlade]

First of all I'd like to say that I fully support the staff's decision.  In my playing time I've recieved three custom items.  I never made any OOC arrangements to get them, but the person handling my order apparently thought that was the best way to please me.  In no instance did it increase my enjoyment of the game or ability to roleplay by any large amount.

But I share Rindan's concerns about the policy regarding player-run clans.  Does this mean that I'm not allowed to gather a handful of adventurers to shack up in an apartment and venture forth to slay the villanous and the inadequately protected?  Can I not IM all my friends and suggest that we all create city elves for our next character?  Or can I do these things only with the understanding that no matter what I do and how much time I spend working on it, I'll never get any staff support.  This seems dissatisfying to me because I don't know any real way to start my own broad-ranging plots without a player-driven clan in some form or another.  Since I've never had any great amount of luck being involved in such plots anyway, player-driven or otherwise, this seems to be saying that I should just give up and forget it.  So while experimenting with this policy for three months won't bother me very much, I really hope that this policy, as I presently understand it, is abandoned or modified.

[Ayashah]

I was thinking on this subject while driving home from a meeting. I know a lot think that 'special objects' arent needed/arent roleplay in themselves. Mostly, that is probably true, but not in all cases.

Let me give an example :

A number of years ago, I had a pc that LOATHED a certain wealthy person and most in that House but was commissioned to make that person a 'special object'. So, of course, my pc did. Now, since my pc loathed that person she took a risk to insult that person and their House. Not wanting to die, the insult was very carefully insinuated into the object. It gave my pc GREAT pleasure to see that object used by that wealthy person and even greater pleasure when it became a House icon object that those of status in that House would definitely HAVE that object. I still get a kick out of seeing that object used.

Object creation can be a roleplay in itself. What was made because one selfish want of a pc IC might become a standard item for the House....or not.

Again, its worth a try seeing how the changes work or if they dont. It definitely affects my pc but then again, life for my pc could change their wants/goals. What was made in my background might never see fruitation and that was a given upon making them. I think a lot of the frustration is knowing OOCly that your pc's IC goals are completely unattainable now but due to your background, you still have to try.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Ayashah.

Master crafters are still allowed one special item per month.  So scenarios like that can still happen, as I understand it.

[Dracul]

I like Ayashah's post...but I also support the staff...thats real cool, but it sounds like a rarer thing.

I personally don't need leet gear.
I'd much rather have a free imm animate the bartender.
Id much rather....



It's cool, I hate to see people aruging with the staff too...because it doesn't matter whos right or wrong in any of those arguments, still arguing.

Wheres the happy go lucky bunny hugging...errr...howd that go?

[Ayashah]

Ayashah.

Master crafters are still allowed one special item per month.  So scenarios like that can still happen, as I understand it.

I caught that

I was just trying to give an example on how special objects CAN be rp in themselves.

*ruffles EvilRoeSlade's hair*

Its not just about master crafters, these changes. It affects other things but since I never tried to make a clan before, I cant really given an example on that.  Now, my buddy that started out with a d-elf and made SLK out of it, he might be able to.

[Sanvean]

But I share Rindan's concerns about the policy regarding player-run clans. Does this mean that I'm not allowed to gather a handful of adventurers to shack up in an apartment and venture forth to slay the villanous and the inadequately protected? Can I not IM all my friends and suggest that we all create city elves for our next character?

No, you're quite welcome to do it, although I have a few qualms about that last one you mention.  But during the three months (and possibly after it) of this experiment, do not email in expecting coded clan, objects, tattoos, etc.

What about current projects that entail the construction of tribal camps?

Are these now in a sort of 'limbo', or will construction continue if it is in the interest of the staff overseeing it?

I would presume that if the staff member previously overseeing them is interested still, they'll post about it.  If this was an independent project that hasn't been cleared with the staff previously, then I don't think it will happen, but as always it depends on a staff member being willing to drive the project.