Policy Changes

[Sanvean]

If you want to discuss them, here's the place.  We took 2-3 weeks of mulling things over from the immortal side, including one all-staff meeting and one HL+ meeting, which I mention only in case people are thinking these decisions were made without forethought, heh.  The intent is to help the game run more smoothly, while increasing the emphasis on roleplay.  I encourage you, if you're interested in contributing to the game, to do so by:

a) filing bugs/typos/ideas
b) working on projects from the current projects blog
c) sending in original fiction, poetry, or artwork
d) joining one of the groups, such as the Publicity, Zalanthan Fashion, or APM ones
e) maintaining our high standard of roleplay and leading by example

[Krath]

I am glad for these changes and do not feel bad about saying, Its about time. I think I am going
to enjoy this master crafter feature now..I am excited. Kudos and keep it up.

[Tamarin]

I think that the new rules being instituted are good ones, especially since things have gotten so bad, as you say.

My only problem with the "no custom orders through merchants" clause is that a number of times, I have tried to order items this way that very likely already exist in that particular company's catalogue.  I have no way of knowing if what I am looking for has been coded into that company's arsenal, and when I talk to the merchants about it, they seem to have no idea either.  

For example, say I want to order a sword from Salarr that has a leather-wrapped wooden hilt with a blade of salt-worm tooth, my natural instict would be to write up a submission and do a custom order.  However, they may already stock this type of item, but I have now way of knowing it, and if the merchant doesn't either, I'm screwed.

I am well aware that the emphasis of the game is not on item acquisition, but nonetheless this is somewhat frustrating when it arises.  Would it be resonable to publish a list of orderable items for each merchant house so that we can at least know whether or not what we are looking for exists currently?

[Jacques]

For example, say I want to order a sword from Salarr that has a leather-wrapped wooden hilt with a blade of salt-worm tooth, my natural instict would be to write up a submission and do a custom order.  However, they may already stock this type of item, but I have now way of knowing it, and if the merchant doesn't either, I'm screwed.

Perhaps the merchant clans could make available to their merchants a basic list of "nonstandard" items that are able to be ordered? This would be a lot of work initially, but if it started small and was added to regularly, it might be a good resource for starting merchant PCs. Otherwise, the PC contacts the merchant PC, the merchant PC bothers his/her staff, the staff responds, the merchant finds the PC... repeat ad nauseum. This is fine, but adds extra work for the PC merchant and staff of the merchant house.

[Lazloth]

Or perhaps the merchants who take these roles either come with some amount of experience, or actually roleplay a little bit within the clan to determine specifically what they can and cannot promise?

[My 2 sids]

I'd say, in terms of the merchant houses, that because these are OOC changes the IC function of the merchant houses has always been like this.  What I mean is that there shouldn't be IC ramifications or shock that merchants aren't taking special orders.  Don't be offended if there isn't something you're looking for, that's life.  "It's a harsh world."  :wink:

[JollyGreenGiant]

Could you clarify #2?  I understand that you mean that if there is no such thing as a quadruple-headed flail in the database, I can't order one.  What I'm not clear on is if "You can request something and if it is already in the database, it may be possible to get it." means that if that quadruple-headed flail -does- already exist, I can order one.  Or would that be covered in the "No special orders" category?

Also, does that affect items that specific Houses order from the merchants?  For example, ordering livery for Borsail from Kadius.

[Krath]

Could you clarify #2?  I understand that you mean that if there is no such thing as a quadruple-headed flail in the database, I can't order one.  What I'm not clear on is if "You can request something and if it is already in the database, it may be possible to get it." means that if that quadruple-headed flail -does- already exist, I can order one.  Or would that be covered in the "No special orders" category?

Also, does that affect items that specific Houses order from the merchants?  For example, ordering livery for Borsail from Kadius.

Shit that has already been made or very similar to what you wish to order, you can get.
Noble house Gear, if ordered by a Superior you can get because it has been crafted before
and I am sure they would keep stock in had seeing as how a large majority of their
sales comes from equipping the  Military and Noble House Guards. Coo?

[Larrath]

When submitting items/NPCs/echos/descriptions, we ask that you only submit things for the projects listed in our Current Projects blog, located at: http://www.zalanthas.org/blogs/current/ This includes crafting submissions, with the sole exception of items covered in number 3 below. Be aware that it may take up to a month for the submissions to be built. This page will be swapped in for the other projects page.

So if I have a great idea for a new pair of shoes, or an echo for the Kuraci courtyard in Allanak, or whatever...I can't send it in?
I can understand this when objects are concerned, but for extra descriptions, echoes and NPCs, I truly do not see the reasoning.
Sure, nobody needs five more NPC guards to stand in Point X, but is another child in the Labyrinth or a non-merchant basketweaver in the Warrens really such a big threat to Ginka's resources?

2) No more special orders of any type through merchants. You can request something and if it is already in the database, it may be possible to get it. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months. If you have a special order currently placed with a merchant, it will be delivered, but no new orders can be placed.

I'm going to be disgustingly blunt here - I don't think this is a good idea.
I think it will be fine if custom orders will be made harder to get by raising the wait and the IC costs (making it cost four times as much will reduce the amount significantly).  Otherwise, people will see people in objects they haven't seen before and will immediately go "A-ha, this man is involved in a secret plot!".
If these cool 'quest items' are made to be seen, I think this ultimately will do more bad than it does good.  I admit that there are too many custom items out there, but removing them completely is almost as damaging to the consistency as saying that all magickers are bad except Vivaduans because people like water, in my humble opinion.

3) Master crafters can, if their skill is sufficiently high, create one special item for that skill. You may submit only one TOTAL of these special items per month. They should be sent to mud@armageddon.org; please confirm that your skill is sufficiently high in that area before submitting the item, which must include a crafting recipe for the item (which can be restricted by clan). Be aware that it may take up to a month for the crafting array to be implemented.

I don't really have a problem with this, as long as this doesn't mean that new generic cooking recipes will be restricted in this manner.

4) The staff will be putting together and writing guidelines for submissions, which will be published when they're done. Basically, player submitted items will be held to the same standards that staff written items have been.

Hallelujah.

6) You may request a total of two description changes for a character over the course of her or his lifetime. This includes but is not limited to requests for scars, tattoos, haircuts, etc. We are currently looking at better ways to allow players to administer their own scars. In the occasion where a description change is merited or imposed through the intervention of a plotline, these will not count against the total. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

In its core, this idea is also not bad...however, restricting this to a PC's lifetime means that two year PC that started at age 13 is going to have a pretty awkward time.
Why not limit this to once per three RL months, instead?


Note: I skipped Section 5 because I assume it will be clarified in the Ask The Staff post.

And, in conclusion...I can't say that reading this post made me particularly happy.  Obviously this doesn't mean the constraints (be them staff time or system resources or anything else) should be ignored because of me, but I still wanted to voice my view of this.

[Armaddict]

Emphasis on roleplay.  Emphasis on roleplay.

First off...I haven't submitted for items in a very long time.  I haven't asked for custom orders, either.  I'd like to know how those rules are going to vastly improve role-play just because now, people can only craft what's in game and order what's in game.  People will -still- order items.  People will -still- craft items.

Now, the only problem is that when my character -does- come up with some new, -revolutionary- idea, -through- role-play...it won't be able to be implemented.  Hooray for -limited- acquisition of items, because...that's going to...increase...role-play?


Edited to add:  Yes, I realize that a lot of workload goes into working with certain player-made clans.  And that sometimes, they ask for things beneficial, that just don't work out.  In my opinion, a simple -no- is good enough, rather than closing down all staff support for players.  My prediction (as a psychic.  One that has no powers whatsoever and could very likely be wrong) is that this is...not going to promote role-play as much as it's hoped to.  We're going to see an even division of the people who used to enjoy playing in player-driven clans...the ones who stick with it, or go to a clan with coded support, and people who, with no benefit, go to the other side and become indies.  Indies that do not join up with many people, hunt/forage a lot, whatever.  In my experience, saying 'We aren't going to help you anymore' doesn't really promote sticking together, as most people believe.

Sorry, I'm completely dumbfounded on how this is supposed to work.  -Someone- who gets it, explain it to me please

[Canadian Beaver]

Hmm, how is 'Master' crafter defined? Are you only counted as a master crafter if you're working for one of the houses? You have a general idea of how good you are by what you can make and how often you fail, but how do you class people as masters? And if we're a crafter and think our skill is good enough to qualify and submit our one item, will we be told a simple yes/no if our skill is high enough or face the wrath of an immy for being too crappy for it heh.

A staff member sends:
"You want to make what? With -your- skill?"

Someone doubles over laughing, rolling around on the ground.

[Krath]

Emphasis on roleplay.  Emphasis on roleplay.

First off...I haven't submitted for items in a very long time.  I haven't asked for custom orders, either.  I'd like to know how those rules are going to vastly improve role-play just because now, people can only craft what's in game and order what's in game.  People will -still- order items.  People will -still- craft items.

Now, the only problem is that when my character -does- come up with some new, -revolutionary- idea, -through- role-play...it won't be able to be implemented.  Hooray for -limited- acquisition of items, because...that's going to...increase...role-play?

Sorry, I'm completely dumbfounded on how this is supposed to work.  -Someone- who gets it, explain it to me please

*highfives armaddict* Score one for the bad guys!

[jhunter]

I think what is intended is that people are spending too much time and too much of the Staff's time on writing up items and things like that instead of worrying about roleplaying.

*shrugs*

[Armaddict]

So now all that time they spent writing up new submissions and emailing staff will be spent crafting things already in game.  Sure, it may save the staff time, but it lowers the variety within the game.

And they'll -still- spend more of their time in game crafting.  They'll just be able to make the same items over and over and flood shops with them, and/or start hassling pc's to buy whatever the best thing they can make is.  I'm -still- dumbfounded as to how this will increase role-play.

[Halaster]

Could you clarify #2?  I understand that you mean that if there is no such thing as a quadruple-headed flail in the database, I can't order one.  What I'm not clear on is if "You can request something and if it is already in the database, it may be possible to get it." means that if that quadruple-headed flail -does- already exist, I can order one.  Or would that be covered in the "No special orders" category?

Also, does that affect items that specific Houses order from the merchants?  For example, ordering livery for Borsail from Kadius.

Basically, if the item already exists in our database, you can (possibly) have it.  If it does not, you cannot.  So, in your example, if the flail had already been made OOC'ly in the database up to this point, you could have it.  If it has not been, and someone has to create, modify, update, save the new item, you cannot have it.

That help clear it up?

If you and your merchant don't know, ask.  If you want this flail ordered from Salarr, convince a Salarri merchant to email his clan Immortal and ask if something like it exists.  If it does, great.  If it doesn't, they might suggest alternatives (at the discretion of the Immortal involved - I'm not volunteering anyone for anything).

[Halaster]

 I'm -still- dumbfounded as to how this will increase role-play.

From the Immortal side of things, it will mean that many staff members now have more time to run plots/quests and play npc's and that sort of thing, instead of spending their time making objects.

[My 2 sids]

I think what is intended is that people are spending too much time and too much of the Staff's time on writing up items and things like that instead of worrying about roleplaying.

*****************

I think players tend to want to "reinvent the wheel" every time they come up with something.  Just sit back and order because my guess is that in those YEARS the game has been operating an item very similar to what you want has already been made.    

As for that "what about when my character has an idea?" argument, well things just don't happen that way.  The society in game isn't one to culture new thoughts... more like, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

[Armaddict]

Well, that's good and all.  It should be fun.  But we've got a big staff.  We've got multiple immortals for each clan, even, in most cases.

When I used to build for a mud, it took me ten minutes to build a good, detailed object.  Granted, I didn't have to do any 'research' on it to insure that it compared well with the other weapons in game, etc, but I -know- that you can pick and choose projects, set aside a small amount of time to work on it, then go on with animating your npc's or organizing your plots.  Everyone in game already -knows- that a special order is going to take fucking ages...and with months now being -two- weeks instead of one, I see more time for it to be worked on and still be completed within that year and a half that it sometimes took.

I know I'm scoring 'I'm bad' points, but...this seems to me that there are ulterior motives involved, and not just 'to promote role-play'.

[Armaddict]

I know of at least two 'revolutionary' things happening in game right now, my 2 'sids.  I guess -that- roleplay was put to a halt.

[Xygax]

When I used to build for a mud, it took me ten minutes to build a good, detailed object.

I think ten minutes is a bit brief.  It takes me a few minutes just to work out a suitable sdesc for an object that differentiates it from the other objects in the game (don't forget we have a database of tens of thousands of items).  Descriptions are yet another matter, and finally tweaking weight, wear/affect/state flags (Arm has a lot more of these than any other mud I've worked on), adding extra descriptions for taste, scent, etc.  We also have an approval process for our builders, so each item they create passes under the eyes of at least one HL/OL, then you have to start thinking about how the object will actually get into the world.  If it is a crafting item, then adding the recipe is more, additional work.  Or is it necessarily to modify shopfiles so that shopkeepers have the correct inventories?  What about loading it onto NPCs in the world (which means waiting for Saturday to modify the zones)?  The situation compounds itself as the database grows and it becomes harder and harder to balance items against one another in terms of cost, quality, weight, etc.

Everyone in game already -knows- that a special order is going to take fucking ages...and with months now being -two- weeks instead of one, I see more time for it to be worked on and still be completed within that year and a half that it sometimes took.

I'm not sure I'm able to pluck out the point here, except that you're frustrated by the "fucking ages" it takes to order an item.  Those policies are related to IC realities for the various merchant houses and have nothing to do with the recent policy changes.  In the future, please consider gentler phrasing.  I know I harp on the language a lot, but the signal to noise ratio only decreases when you can't discipline yourself enough to find better words than "fuck", "shit", etc.

I know I'm scoring 'I'm bad' points, but...this seems to me that there are ulterior motives involved, and not just 'to promote role-play'.

This isn't an issue of scoring "bad points."  Sharing your feedback with us on the policy changes is fine (we even want feedback. believe it or not), but you'll have better success in a productive discussion of specific concerns, and by offering constructive suggestions, rather than posting in frustration.  Finally, I'm not sure what "ulterior motives" you're accusing us of pursuing with this policy; we've made it clear that we feel too much time and effort is being spent on filling the database with items.  It's that simple.

As Sanvean noted in her original post on this thread, we've spent a lot of time considering these policy changes, as a staff, and we feel that this is the best thing for the health of the mud, overall.  We have limited resources (as always, #1 of these is time), and so have to budget our use of those resources rationally.  Give the new policies a try, and if you find yourself having specific issues with them, then we can consider those individually.

[Twilight]

First suggestion-If a crafting skill description says that "this skill is not fully implemented yet", you should have item submissions for that not fully implemented skill as one of the projects on the webpage, until it is considered fully implemented.

Second suggestion-If a player points out a gap, and volunteers to spend their time to fill that gap, with immortal approval it should supercede the rules presented.  Example: a clan's specific items don't come from materials found where the clan is, so suggesting clan specific craftables made from local materials, and volunteering to come up with said craftables.

Points to clarify-
As a master crafter, I can submit one item per month?  Or one item per skill I am a master at per month?  Or one item total ever per skill I am a master at, not to exceed one item per month?  Does putting together a wagon count?

How about items that probably would not be appropriate with crafting recipes, but I am a master crafter with that skill, and I want to make one of that item, ever, for a specific person, purpose, etc?

In the past, when I saw what I considered a gap, or an opportunity to add something that did not exist, or to flesh out the world in a new and interesting way, I wrote something up and sent it in.  What is the preferred new process, simply email the mud with what we view the gap/opportunity etc to be, and let the immortals see if they agree then prioritise it on their own workload?



Is this a situation that has been brought about by crafting, really?  I remember before crafting went in, people would complain about all the requests that merchants got for custom orders.  I can only imagine the volumes of items submitted has shot up since then.

[Armaddict]

This seems like a pretty big 'fuck you' to player-oriented goals, and yes, even plots that would make them reach those goals.  Personal plots and group plots, when all they try to do is improve the group.

Basically, what I'm getting out of it, is that the staff wants to spend -less- time on the players so that they have more time to spend on their own projects...so...all these new applicants who just got onto staff said they didn't want to do it anymore, or what?

[jhunter]

What I believe they are saying Armaddict, is that they'd rather spent their time running plots for the players rather than making items and things like that which are not needed.

[Anonymous]

My only problem with the "no custom orders through merchants" clause is that a number of times, I have tried to order items this way that very likely already exist in that particular company's catalogue.  I have no way of knowing if what I am looking for has been coded into that company's arsenal, and when I talk to the merchants about it, they seem to have no idea either.  

For example, say I want to order a sword from Salarr that has a leather-wrapped wooden hilt with a blade of salt-worm tooth, my natural instict would be to write up a submission and do a custom order.  However, they may already stock this type of item, but I have now way of knowing it, and if the merchant doesn't either, I'm screwed.

This is an awsome question, and I do hope that I am not getting overly IC with this. If I am, Imm's please edit this. Custom is a brand new item, Special Order is just an item not readily available.

A while back I played a merchant, and I can't tell you how many people asked me (this is a fictional example), "Was looking for something ornate with a bone blade, and leather grip, good for slashing at things. Do you think you make me something like that?"

Now there are -thousands- of items out there. One of them I am sure, will fit the bill for that. And my Imms -enforced- that on me rather quickly. Don't take a custom unless it is a completely original item.

So I would say, "I am not sure what we have, let me come back to you in a week or so with a few things, we may have something just like that."

Or I would say if I knew of something, "We have this specific kind of blade, it looks like this and has this type of handle, or we have this kind of blade, looks like this and can be used this way."

If I didn't know of anything, I would then ask my clan imm what we had that fit the bill. Or I would add into my weekly order as description of what I was looking for. Said Imm would then put a few things into my available to purchase inventory that fit the description.

This would help me as a merchant player two fold.

1. I would know more items and prices and be able to offer a varity of selections much quicker.
2. Prevent me from having to write up an item. (especially when most likely there is a similar thing in game)

Basically, two steps to having good merchants are IMHO. Excellent Clan Imms that respond quickly and have no problems being informative. And a very organized player playing your merchant.

Nobody is the perfect Merchant when they start, you shouldn't expect them to be able to know every item off the cusp. However, that should not impede another player from getting what you want or need from that merchant, it just may take a bit longer.  There is always an Imm backing that merchant player. So if they don't know, they can ask.  

Now if the Imm can't help, then there is a problem with how the game has inventory sorted and or how Imm's can look for things. My imm didn't seem to have too many issues with it.

[Intrepid]

Personally, I have no strong opinions either way on the new policies.
They seem reasonable to me, as a "let's test this out" sort of
phase.  I imagine that the embargo, so to speak, on items will ease
up a little, with more specific limitations implemented for the sake
of migrane control.

If less building means the staff gets to animate npcs to interact
with us more and/or breathe more life into the world with uber
snazzy new events, I'm all for it.  I think those activities tend to be
more enjoyable for both staff and player alike, not to mention that
many Arm-enthusiasts become imms in the first place.