Policy Changes

[jhunter]

If less building means the staff gets to animate npcs to interact
with us more and/or breathe more life into the world with uber
snazzy new events, I'm all for it.

Me too.

[Halaster]

This seems like a pretty big 'fuck you' to player-oriented goals, and yes, even plots that would make them reach those goals.  Personal plots and group plots, when all they try to do is improve the group.

How do you see it this way?  I'm trying to understand your point, but I don't get it.  How are we ending player-oriented goals and group plots?

Basically, what I'm getting out of it, is that the staff wants to spend -less- time on the players so that they have more time to spend on their own projects...so...all these new applicants who just got onto staff said they didn't want to do it anymore, or what?

It's unfortunate you see it that way, but you're wrong.  If you read what we said already, we're doing this so that we can do -more- plots and quests and things like that.  How in the world does that equate to less time on the players?

And to be honest, what's so wrong with certain staff wanting to work on their 'own pet' projects?  We're all here to have fun, and their 'pet' projects are what they consider fun (as long as it doesn't harm the world as a whole, yadda yadda).  If we hired staff and just said "Here, you work on this and that's all you get", we wouldn't have much staff.  We don't get paid money, so our "payment" is our satisfaction and our enjoyment, so we're naturally going to work on the projects we enjoy.  Otherwise, what is the point?

[Pantoufle]

I'm just a lowly nobody but here's what I think.

Arm likes to compare itself to a MUSH except that it has a Diku code, which, to a degree, is relatively true.  One area where this falls short is with descriptions and items.  I feel absolutely liberated whenever I play a MUSH knowing full well that I can change my description around at will and conjure up as many items as I see fit (provided that they fit in with the setting of the game and are realistic to have acquired -- you can't just load up a silver signet ring and expect that to be realistic, for example, if you aren't a noble).  That's what roleplaying is all about, right?  I want the liberty of knowing I can create any useless (but hard coded) object to enter into a scene, as well as the liberty to know that I can change my description when my character goes from being pristine and dapper to bruised and muddied.  Or if my character chops all his hair off, I can do that without a lot of hassle, having to wait for someone else to do it for me.  And why should I?  This isn't an offensive statement against the staff, rather, a point about the tremendous limitations of a Diku code.

The code is setup to give non-existant players more support than existing ones.  You can create anything from short desc to main desc to background, height, weight, etc. in the character generation menu.  Once you are in game however, that opportunity comes to a staggering halt and, as a general rule, having adjustments made is next to impossible for some, exceptionally difficult for many.  But imagine if there were an option for EXISTING characters in the main menu, where someone can submit for changes and then just wait for that to get processed along with all the other new characters in the application queu.  Or even create a secondary, lower profile application queu for people to submit these things.  This way the change is instantaneous.  If the adjustment is accepted then the next time you login, voila!  You're all set.  To deter people from nonstop desc changes, select a limitation on the number of times this can be done within a given week, month, or year.  Though thereto again, you see the difference between the weak Diku code versus the stronger, more free-willed MUSH code, which is a shame in a game where roleplay is the main focus -- how can I roleplay if I have to skirt around certain scenes like chopping my hair off, or tattoing my arms, etc. etc.?  I don't even WANT to roleplay scenes which alter my appearance knowing how much of an OOC hassle it can be.  Go play a MUSH and tell the players there that they can no longer have their pregnant character change her description and you will be faced with a mob!  These things are of utmost importance to the players involved, it helps them get into character more.  Again, no offense to anyone but the code and the tyranical restrictions it imposes.

The other issue is that merchants have no clue what their House's inventory is.  They can go to the warehouse and see what is currently loaded, but that's not the entire repetoire (nowhere near!)  Aside from this, they must hassle an immortal and see if the item exists, then get back with the other player (who may have already died -- wasting everyone's time).  Merchants can't do that much, really.  They are powerless as far as the code is concerned.  They sit in taverns, lounge in their estates and sometimes  (rarely) travel in wagons.  They are severely limited and only fun for those with the smarts to play out a plot-driving, leadership role.  Give them some more props, I say!  There are some spells/skills which mirror immortal commands, such as the ability to go unnoticed or watch others from afar.  Why not give family merchants immortal-like commands which allow them to review certain object files, and possibly even load them.  This would relieve the staff of basically doing a merchant's work for them, it would also give them more power and it would give a lot more meaning to rare and unique items.  Lastly, it would make merchants a useful commodity to the game world and put them in enormously high demand.  If I knew that dude in Salarr getup at the table next to me could TRULY tell me what is in their family's warehouse and TRULY sell it to me, I would be all over that guy to make a purchase.  And he could happily rip me off, too!  Think about it.  It seems far more ideal than the current situation where the merchant in question can basically only say, "Uhm, I don't know if we have that.  I'll get back to you some day.  Or .. maybe never.  Don't hold your breath."  These shouldn't be the words of a monopoly merchant.

Having said that, I think the updates as a whole are more ideal than the way things have been running and also a bit interesting.  It will certainly give "master" crafters an upper hand, which I like.

[Armaddict]

I'm saying there can and should be a balance with it.  Yes, completely -eliminating- custom orders and submission of items/npcs/whatever to things not on the submission request board will save on time for immortals so that they can do the extreme busy-work involved in coordinating a plot or so that they can switch into an npc and come and role-play with the players more.

At the same time...it's stagnating those clans that 'aren't allowed' to be worked on.  And some plots to go towards improving those clans, or furthering their interests, are now done for, because it ultimately would have ended in, or required along the way, new items/custom orders that would reflect the IC progress made.

So...I may as well just quit my clan, and play an indie unless I can get into one of those other clans, because the -only- (okay, not only, but this will make a picture) activities I'll be able to do are

a)Work on plots set by my clan immortal, through their increased interaction through npcs.  
b)Try to change things within the clan that I see as detrimental, -as long- as it results in no changes in equipment or requiring new equipment or npc's for a new expansion of that clan.  (For example, no new 'academy' sort of extensions, or 'forts for militia', or 'lumber camps' that you may have made, etc.  We can't make the npc's to furnish them)
c)Socialize with other clan players whose projects are similarly limited.

You really -can't- just put in -one- object/npc when you first login, -when you feel like it-, before switching into npc's or however else you wanted to 'promote role-play' with the changes now made?

I'm interested to see how clans go in this trial period.  My feeling, as of now, is against it.

[marko]

Armaddict - No, it isn't a big diss on players.

I would guess that if there is an IC plot that involves a House and involves a lot of people - the derivatives of that plot will be finished up.  For example, if House Kadius is expanding its position within the Grey Forest and begin building a camp.  That camp will be done including its assorted npcs.  What is being limited here are nsolicited items, rooms, and npcs.

Please notice that people are encouraged to check the open projects page to see what is desired.  

As for the amount of time it takes to write a well crafted object.  From my own experience (since we are sharing), a well written, detailed and atmospheric item or npc can take upwards of two (2) hours to write.  After the initial writing there is a review process that can take up to another hour.  After that, there is placing the item in the game - which can take an additional hour.  This is assuming no further revision is required and the item is restarted.  Therefore, an immortal who's main role is to be a storyteller may be spending up to four (4) hours to make a single entity.

Something as "simple" as a building or camp can take months and involve over eighty (80) hours of effort on the part of a single immortal.  Further, the review and revision process will add half that amount of time.  Therefore, a single estate may have taken up to one hundred and twenty (120) hours to complete.

Now the thing about object creation (and room and npc) is that it takes time while online.  You tend to get distracted from what is going on in your clans because you are rushing to get an entity in.  This detracts from the roleplay of the game.  Plus, because you need to watch what is going on - you may do a half-assed job on the entity in the rush to get it done.  Mistakes crop up - they get caught in the review stage - entity is revised but rushed - mistakes - reviewed - the each revision adds more time.  

These are my own experiences from when I was on the immortal staff (a long time ago now).  The behind the scenes stuff is major, time consuming, and even stressful.  Every immortal has my utmost respect and thanks for taking their freetime to make the game as awesome as it is.

[Cenghiz]

All these are OK for me.. Especially if a system for Player-controlled scar changes can be implemented, it would be fantastic. When a bahamet horrendeusly claws you on your torso and you can add a jagged slash scar to your chest for a few days, it would rock.
Err.. But I want to ask something with an example.

Example: Your character sees a barbed whip while someone swings it to a slave. He thinks: "Good.. But I'm a person of class.. I can have a better one made. I want agate chips instead of bone chips." Then he goes finding a master weaponcrafter. He logs his RP with the crafter, showing a usual barbed whip, then instructing the changes he wants. Then he opens NotePad, then the submission page in armageddon.org, he submits agate-barbed whip and it's logical crafting sequence. Then he provides the master weaponcrafter either money or the necessary materials till it gets approved in a few RL weeks. The master weaponcrafter contuniously RP's the crafting sequence. Then he one day sees...

>craft branch hide shard shard shard
You can craft these into an agate-barbed whip

This scenario used to work before. I remember a stonecrafter of mine carving special jasper raptor statuettes for a newbie PC clan using this scenario.
Would it still be possible to have bone and sandcloth fans, jade-inset obsidian combs or such special items if we take the responsibility to submit the item and its crafting sequence, RP the necessary scenario and be patient?

[Tamarin]

To the Anon Kank who replied to me earlier comment:

w00t.  Thank you.  We are on the same level.

I hope we can get some staff feedback on the issue of "how do I found out what the companies stock for special orders (not to be confused with custom orders) so I don't have to make a custom order."

[Nidhogg]

Armaddict, you sound how I feel when I am frustrated. And I hate change. So, I can relate. But wait, stop, breathe. There is a big difference between a plot item, and a mossy light green and siilver aba of death which bears a striking resemblance to the green and silver aba of death.

Yes, we want players to continue to initiate plots. We want to support you in those plots. We'd rather not support you with special order items. However, if there is an object that you really need, I suggest instead of lamenting the lack of availability here, you wait until you feel less frustrated and write the mud, your imm, an unaffiliated player imm and explain your situation. That does not guarantee you'll get the object in question, but we do try to accomodate when we can.

[Cenghiz]

Err.. I may be wronged but I believe clan agents are told about the change beforehand. Now they're explaining the possible goods they provide if you ask. So the answer is I guess the wicked "Find out IC."

[Armaddict]

Marko, your post was helpful.  I've never been too involved in this sort of thing, and showing it as that time-consuming is a good way of helping me to understand.

Halaster, I didn't mean less time on players altogether.  I meant less time in player-oriented goals.  Yes, this is supposed to be fun, but when one becomes staff, you -have- to expect to spend time on more private submissions that seem to have little do with anything.  It's part of role-play; it's a personal progression.  An example here would be a certain half-elf armorcrafter who played in the north, a long time ago.  He submitted his own items, sold them to clanned pc's, and ended up gaining a reputation as an armorcrafter whose quality rivaled Salarr's.  I know at least one premiere noble house wanted to hire him on as their permanent armorcrafter, which would have changed the way that clan handled armor.  All this was brought about by progression of the pc and -submissions-.  Things like this will no longer be able.

Once, I applied for and was approved to play a character who was a cenyrian.  This was approved because 'it is a role that can add to the depth of the game'.  It promoted role-play with a new group.  We didn't do that well because of stupidity, but now all roles such as that are impossible.  Once again, it was a role based around submissions.

Through limiting personal styles and personal progression in a character's goal, you are, indeed, limiting role-play.  This doesn't further it.  It furthers -plot- progression, but not -player- progression.  Call it twinkish if you like, but a lot of role-play comes as a result of players having the freedom to create new things that other players, in turn, appreciate and want to continue.

Nidhogg:  This is what I'm saying.  Instead of changing the policy on it altogether...why don't we just say 'no' to an item every once in awhile?  In essence, I think this will limit changes that players will try to bring to clans or to the gameworld itself, while at the same time drastically increasing the amount of correspondence that must be done just to -start- an item.  What happens when someone forms a prominent mercenary group, and tries to get a few items specific to his unit?  He walks up to Salarr, and they say 'We don't have designs for that.  Sorry, we don't know how to make new designs.  You have a design?  We can't make it.  Find an independent.  Oh, but that one who's the only one who's good enough made a new design this year already, so you'll have to wait until -next- year.'
Once again, I feel it -inhibits- the flow of the game and the notion of the 'real' zalanthas.  It -inhibits- role-play.

And yes, I -am- resistant to change, as most people have noted with my posts, I think.  I like change when it comes about in a flowing, realistic, and IC way.  And this is the enemy of that sort of change.  It will result in changes 'spawning' out of nowhere, only when it's realized that a problem is there.

[Intrepid]

It seems reasonable for the players of merchants and crafters,
especially those of the dynastic merchant houses in play, to be
able to request a list of what they/their crafters can provide.  It
is a business, after all.

I'm actually surprised this list isn't already available for player
perusal in the merchant clans.

[Agent_137]

I haven't read the rest of this thread, maybe later. I just wanted to say:

YAY.

[sarahjc]

I hope we can get some staff feedback on the issue of "how do I found out what the companies stock for special orders (not to be confused with custom orders) so I don't have to make a custom order."

That Kank was me. I did not mean to post as a kank. Basically, the answers are as close as your local PC Merchant.

If you know what you want, the Merchant player can talk that to a Clan Imm and say..

I need a funny little hat with pink bows on it.  

Said Imm should be able to say. I have loaded up a few things for you. We dont have exactly that, but we have these. Take a look and see if they are what you are looking for.

A comical hat with pink ribbons.
A funny cap with pink bows.


Also keep in mind that "the Big Three" don't sell everything. There are also other outlets in which you can get cool stuff. You just have to find out IC, who you need to talk to.

Stinky Pants Salarr may come back to you and say, "We really don't have anything like that. You might want to talk to these people."  Or just "I'm sorry, we don't have that."

And then it's up to you to find it.

[Marauder Moe]

I think this all sounds great.  Immortal-driven plots/quests/events and such should definitely be higher priority than Hunter Joe who wants a cloak that's two shades lighter than fuschia with tembo embroidery.

With the new description change policy, however, might I shamelessly redirect some attention to a recent idea of mine?  http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10862

[Armaddict]

So, in other words...the prominent houses will have to stop using it's resources to give people what they want to pay for?  Hardly sounds like effective business.

That's not very IC, in my opinion.

[Raesanos]

First suggestion-If a crafting skill description says that "this skill is not fully implemented yet", you should have item submissions for that not fully implemented skill as one of the projects on the webpage, until it is considered fully implemented.

That sounds like a good idea to me.  You may feel free to suggest projects to the staff.  In this case, feel free to email me personally, since some of the less-used crafting skills are something I've been thinking about lately.

Second suggestion-If a player points out a gap, and volunteers to spend their time to fill that gap, with immortal approval it should supercede the rules presented.  Example: a clan's specific items don't come from materials found where the clan is, so suggesting clan specific craftables made from local materials, and volunteering to come up with said craftables.

This is how things are intended to be.  If a staff member wants to oversee a project, then they are allowed to accept submissions for it, as per what Sanvean said in her origanal post.  If you want to suggest a project to the staff, feel free, but do not work on it until talking to them, as no staff members may have time to work on it with you.

As a master crafter, I can submit one item per month?  Or one item per skill I am a master at per month?  Or one item total ever per skill I am a master at, not to exceed one item per month?  Does putting together a wagon count?

One item per month, total. That one item must corrospond to a skill that you are sufficiently skilled in.  Wagons do count.

How about items that probably would not be appropriate with crafting recipes, but I am a master crafter with that skill, and I want to make one of that item, ever, for a specific person, purpose, etc?

Submissions for items under merit of being a "master crafter" must include a crafting recipe.  So, you can not do that at this time.

In the past, when I saw what I considered a gap, or an opportunity to add something that did not exist, or to flesh out the world in a new and interesting way, I wrote something up and sent it in.  What is the preferred new process, simply email the mud with what we view the gap/opportunity etc to be, and let the immortals see if they agree then prioritise it on their own workload?

Emailing mud with project suggtions is both allowed and good.  Just don't make any submissions until an immortal has agreed to work on it with you.

Is this a situation that has been brought about by crafting, really?  I remember before crafting went in, people would complain about all the requests that merchants got for custom orders.  I can only imagine the volumes of items submitted has shot up since then.

Interesting question.  I can't say I know for sure if the rise of the crafting system is directly responsable for the shift of emphasis in the game from roleplaying to adding content.  My personal feeling is that it was probably one of many factors.

[Nidhogg]

Armaddict, I completely get what you're saying. However, while you, as you said, rarely request special items, there are a great many requests on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. Many of these items don't forward plots, they are made for one person. Then that person dies and it just takes up space in the database. If in the next three months, when the policy is reevaluated you find that you have been inhibited, open a dialouge with an imm explaining the impact the policy has had on RP. Hopefully, we will see positive results as an effect of the change, if not, the three months will be sufficient time to recognize that the policy isn't working out without breaking the game.

[Delirium]

These guidelines don't sound so bad to me, and like was said, many will be reviewed in 3 months' time.

As far as items go, personally I never liked the idea of submitting custom stuff - items that are completely original and there is only one ever - that just seems like a waste of database space. Unless it's a plot item. Then it's all gravy.

I do enjoy writing up new items that could be used by anyone if they had the resources and means to get it, especially if they fill in a percieved gap, or if I had some sort of idea, e.g.. there's a lot of creature A around location B, but I don't see many things made using creature A's parts, so I want to fix that and toss a few things out. Zalanthans would make use of just about everything, I think.

But I can agree with writing up only things that are on the 'needed' list - and if a player thinks there's a big gap in a certain location that they're just hopping to fix, why not just email the mud and see if anyone else 'up there' agrees with you and is willing to work on it - or at least put it on a future 'to do' list? Or maybe you'll find out that the gap isn't as big as you thought, or that it's really not necessary because of reasons a, b, and c.

[Tamarin]

Ironically, I ordered a custom item many many months ago, and since then, that character died, and I went through about 3 more until now.  Then BLAM someone is walking around with my custom order.  I found that to be sort of funny, so remembering that gives me a better idea of why they did this.

[Armaddict]

...I know for sure if the rise of the crafting system is directly responsable for the shift of emphasis in the game from roleplaying to adding content...

All that I will say, is that if you think just because a lot of items get made you think that the emphasis of the game has shifted away from role-play, you aren't following the advice that's been given time and time again.

Just like emoting does not equal role-play, neither does going out to actively find people to interact with, or furthering plots.

Role-playing is playing a -character-.  It is -being- someone else, in this case, in Zalanthas.  Just because a player spends a lot of time crafting items, or creating new ones for specific purposes in game, does -not- mean they aren't role-playing.

I say again...there has been -no- shift towards adding content.  It has become available, and people are taking advantage of that with their characters.  More characters may be sending in new items, yes, but does that mean they're doing it for the hell of it?  Most items serve a specific purpose, either for that character or for the group.  The ones that -are- made for the hell of it...the immortals have -always- been free to say 'no'.

[sarahjc]

So, in other words...the prominent houses will have to stop using it's resources to give people what they want to pay for?  Hardly sounds like effective business.

That's not very IC, in my opinion.

That's not the issue. The issue which I think is a good one is that there is just too much damn stuff and it takes too much time. Also think about how many people want custom items?? What happens to that item after that person is dead. It sits in inventory taking up space, nobody else will ever know it is there, nobody else will ever use it.

I'd like to see that time being used for more productive and important things.

Custom orders tend to be hard to put to the side because players want their items,  merchants hate to bitched at by other players cause it makes playing less fun, and Imms like to keep their clanies happy.  

So something that should be done whenever the Imm gets around to it takes some kind of billing. Putting other cool stuff to the side.

Do we really need a grapefuit colored weighted throwing knife when we have a purple, red and blue on hand already?

Also, making customs takes a lot of time, and every item has to be written up, edited and approved.

Now if you want IC reasoning.. Well, the time and labor it takes to make and test a custom order is really not as efficent as just making something that a house may already have a pattern for.  They could just have a basic crafter bang out the item as opposed to having a master crafting make it.

Also if you come up and ask me for a Kitana, the Imms may not approve that "kind" of item being made, so either you will have to settle for something else, or I will have to explain in some IC fashion why we can't make it.

[Armaddict]

If this change was made to -promote- roleplay, sarahjc, than that's exactly the issue.

It's making an ooc change that will drasticly reduce the role-playing options of the players.  It reduces choice in how the game is played.  It sets unreasonable IC guidelines.

It lowers the 'purity' of role-play.

[Agent_137]

...I know for sure if the rise of the crafting system is directly responsable for the shift of emphasis in the game from roleplaying to adding content...

Quoting out of context is bad. VERY BAD. It makes me not trust you or your opinions because you are fudging the statements made by otehrs.

He really said,

Interesting question. I can't say I know for sure if the rise of the crafting system is directly responsable for the shift of emphasis in the game from roleplaying to adding content. My personal feeling is that it was probably one of many factors.

All in all, I like Pantoufle's ideas, and a bunch of the other constructive posts on this thread.

[Armaddict]

I was referring to the part where he said 'the shift away from role-playing and towards adding content'.

It insinuates that there has, indeed, been a shift away from role-playing.  And there hasn't been.

If you read closely, it has nothing to do with the content of the post.  Him not knowing for sure what caused the shift is irrelevant.  I'm contesting the shift of emphasis itself.

[Delirium]

One quick question:

http://www.zalanthas.org/ArmDocs/Community/current.html

Is that up to date, or should we only be using the link below:

http://www.zalanthas.org/blogs/current/

Or can we use both?

Edit: Okay, two quick questions.

By 'special order' do you mean 'custom item', or do you mean 'any new objects whatsoever'?

I.E. would an object that could be loaded over and over again for anyone who wants it be okay, so long as there is not something already like it in the database?