Unsex cloaks

Started by Tisiphone, April 14, 2016, 04:18:23 PM

Would you prefer a gender-neutral pronoun for when your sex is hidden?

Yes
No
Other (explain below)
I hate polls, why are there so many polls?
Simple suggestion: whenever your sdesc is replaced by a non-sexed sdesc (e.g. 'the figure wearing the filthy hooded cloak', but not 'the male wearing the purple gimpka mask') replace all gendered emote substitutions with the gender-neutral (e.g. instead of 'his', 'its')

NB: This might end up being more annoying than not, if you end up talking to people in hoods a lot.
There is no general doctrine which is not capable of eating out our morality if unchecked by the deep-seated habit of direct fellow-feeling with individual fellow-men. -George Eliot

April 14, 2016, 04:24:22 PM #1 Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 04:26:33 PM by nauta
I'd not do it in 'communication' related commands (say, tell, etc.).  You can more often than not de-unsex your interlocutor by listening to their voice.

But in all other commands, sure!
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

I would be fine with that. Makes sense for certain people to not be specifically outed as to what they chose their "char-gen sex" as. It could be that their sex is much more complicated than the binary selection the code allows.

I don't think we need to change the way cloaks or masks or anything like that works.

Those work perfectly for girls who look like girls and boys who look like boys.

It seems we just need to add a gender classification at character creation for "Undefined" or "Andro", or whatever you want to go with.

Then have -that- be the trigger that determines what your special pronouns or whatever are based on your gear selection.
Quote from: James de Monet on April 09, 2015, 01:54:57 AM
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
Quote from: deathkamon on November 14, 2015, 12:29:56 AM
The young daughter has been filled.

Quote from: Desertman on April 14, 2016, 04:45:16 PM
I don't think we need to change the way cloaks or masks or anything like that works.

Those work perfectly for girls who look like girls and boys who look like boys.

It seems we just need to add a gender classification at character creation for "Undefined" or "Andro", or whatever you want to go with.

Then have -that- be the trigger that determines what your special pronouns or whatever are based on your gear selection.

but...

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 14, 2016, 04:38:17 PM
I would be fine with that. Makes sense for certain people to not be specifically outed as to what they chose their "char-gen sex" as. It could be that their sex is much more complicated than the binary selection the code allows.

Either they look like a boy, they look like a girl, or they are andro.

Is there something else that exists that I'm not aware of?
Quote from: James de Monet on April 09, 2015, 01:54:57 AM
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
Quote from: deathkamon on November 14, 2015, 12:29:56 AM
The young daughter has been filled.

Maybe add an option of "What you actually are for info reasons but what you look like for emote reasons" and shit.

Quote from: Desertman on April 14, 2016, 04:48:55 PM
Either they look like a boy, they look like a girl, or they are andro.

Is there something else that exists that I'm not aware of?

Halflings.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Quote from: Desertman on April 14, 2016, 04:48:55 PM
Either they look like a boy, they look like a girl, or they are andro.

Is there something else that exists that I'm not aware of?

It's not always so easy to tell when someone is one or the other. The way the code is now specifically makes that type of play impossible. If, however, the pronouns were simply made gender-neutral (very easy to do) then it would fix that problem. For instance a woman can dress a certain way and look androgynous but still be 100% female.

Only problem I see with it is you won't automatically know someone's sex without looking at them, reducing a bit of ooc awareness. No more: "you notice an extremely short female during an assassin attempt you" and automatically know that 1 female dwarf assassin in the game did it.

Is one's curvaceousness indicative of gender and is this something a cloak would conceal?
"It's too hot in the hottub!"

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https://youtu.be/ZCOSPtyZAPA

Quote from: Molten Heart on April 14, 2016, 04:59:18 PM
Is one's curvaceousness indicative of gender, and is this something a cloak would conceal?

Sometimes yes sometimes no.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 14, 2016, 04:57:32 PM
Quote from: Desertman on April 14, 2016, 04:48:55 PM
Either they look like a boy, they look like a girl, or they are andro.

Is there something else that exists that I'm not aware of?

It's not always so easy to tell when someone is one or the other. The way the code is now specifically makes that type of play impossible. If, however, the pronouns were simply made gender-neutral (very easy to do) then it would fix that problem. For instance a woman can dress a certain way and look androgynous but still be 100% female.

Only problem I see with it is you won't automatically know someone's sex without looking at them, reducing a bit of ooc awareness. No more: "you notice an extremely short female during an assassin attempt you" and automatically know that 1 female dwarf assassin in the game did it.

You just described exactly what andro is.

If that female dwarf doesn't want people to know she's female then write up a character that doesn't have female qualities and pick the option for "andro" (that doesn't currently exist).

Quote from: James de Monet on April 09, 2015, 01:54:57 AM
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
Quote from: deathkamon on November 14, 2015, 12:29:56 AM
The young daughter has been filled.

Unless you mean they look female but are specifically picking out disguises to hide their gender.

In that case this needs to be a thread about a Disguise Skill and not a "change the way cloaks work for the entire world" thread.

(I like the idea of a disguise skill.)
Quote from: James de Monet on April 09, 2015, 01:54:57 AM
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
Quote from: deathkamon on November 14, 2015, 12:29:56 AM
The young daughter has been filled.

April 14, 2016, 05:15:56 PM #13 Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 05:18:48 PM by RogueGunslinger
Because then everyone who is androgynous would be specifically pointed out as androgynous when that's not how it works in real life. You go, "Oh look at the pretty woman in the distance..." then "that woman has manly features" until "wait no, the man has womanly features." and finally "Wait I can't tell." It's not a detail that should be so obvious that you don't have to look to know. People don't have a specific detector that allows them to know whether someones a male that looks female or a female that looks male, or if someone is in between that can pull off both...


I think the code needs a lot of updates to better handle the gender spectrum but a blanket change would not be a good one. I voted no to this one.
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I'm one of those people that liked the main description hiding masks and cloaks.

I voted yes.
Quote from: Dalmeth
I've come to the conclusion that relaxing is not the lack of doing anything, but doing something that comes easily to you.

April 14, 2016, 06:28:19 PM #16 Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 06:30:31 PM by Desertman
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 14, 2016, 05:15:56 PM
Because then everyone who is androgynous would be specifically pointed out as androgynous when that's not how it works in real life. You go, "Oh look at the pretty woman in the distance..." then "that woman has manly features" until "wait no, the man has womanly features." and finally "Wait I can't tell." It's not a detail that should be so obvious that you don't have to look to know. People don't have a specific detector that allows them to know whether someones a male that looks female or a female that looks male, or if someone is in between that can pull off both...



The solution to this isn't that my very male characters shouldn't be recognized as being extremely male because they are wearing a mask.

The same goes for female characters with gigantic fuckjugs.

You would be trading a random rare instance of an andro not being seen as andro enough for their liking for the vast majority of the playerbase that does fall into a easily recognizable physical gender identity not being easily recognizable.

It's makes about as much sense as burning your fields to fight obesity so that you end up starving to death.

The only solution to this problem would be to put in character creation code that allows people to pick which exact percentage of which gender they either do or do not resemble based on standard principles surrounding what is commonly accepted as physically male or female. Then they would have to go a step further and create code that allows you to perceive said percentages within a certain spectrum of values while applying a random number as well for that bit of "error" one may or may not have depending on the situation.

The solution to this problem has nothing to do with cloaks or masks.

Quote from: James de Monet on April 09, 2015, 01:54:57 AM
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
Quote from: deathkamon on November 14, 2015, 12:29:56 AM
The young daughter has been filled.

Did I miss the point of this thread?

I thought it was about a better way to hide who your character is, not one about gender choice and equality in Zalanthas??
Quote from: Dalmeth
I've come to the conclusion that relaxing is not the lack of doing anything, but doing something that comes easily to you.

I'm not sure the benefit is worth the grammatical can of worms.
So if you're tired of the same old story
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April 14, 2016, 09:08:22 PM #19 Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 09:12:29 PM by RogueGunslinger
Quote from: Desertman on April 14, 2016, 06:28:19 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 14, 2016, 05:15:56 PM
Because then everyone who is androgynous would be specifically pointed out as androgynous when that's not how it works in real life. You go, "Oh look at the pretty woman in the distance..." then "that woman has manly features" until "wait no, the man has womanly features." and finally "Wait I can't tell." It's not a detail that should be so obvious that you don't have to look to know. People don't have a specific detector that allows them to know whether someones a male that looks female or a female that looks male, or if someone is in between that can pull off both...



The solution to this isn't that my very male characters shouldn't be recognized as being extremely male because they are wearing a mask.

The same goes for female characters with gigantic fuckjugs.

You would be trading a random rare instance of an andro not being seen as andro enough for their liking for the vast majority of the playerbase that does fall into a easily recognizable physical gender identity not being easily recognizable.

It's makes about as much sense as burning your fields to fight obesity so that you end up starving to death.

The only solution to this problem would be to put in character creation code that allows people to pick which exact percentage of which gender they either do or do not resemble based on standard principles surrounding what is commonly accepted as physically male or female. Then they would have to go a step further and create code that allows you to perceive said percentages within a certain spectrum of values while applying a random number as well for that bit of "error" one may or may not have depending on the situation.

This would all have a point if not knowing someone's gender when they're covered in a cloak (not a mask) was actually a bad thing. You're not trading one rare instance(I illustrated multiple instances, for one thing) for one very common occurrence, because the two are not comparable. One makes no sense(automatic sex-detector,) and one makes a lot of sense (not immediately knowing someones sex when they're covered in a cloak and 3 leagues to your east.)

Quote
The solution to this problem has nothing to do with cloaks or masks.

Except it IS a solution to the problem I pointed out.

Quote from: flurry on April 14, 2016, 06:54:12 PM
I'm not sure the benefit is worth the grammatical can of worms.

"The tall human/dwarf/elf wearing a tattered, ebony cloak" would make a lot of sense to me. Because race is something you absolutely can tell even when soemone is wearing a cloak.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 14, 2016, 09:10:14 PM
Quote from: flurry on April 14, 2016, 06:54:12 PM
I'm not sure the benefit is worth the grammatical can of worms.

"The tall human/dwarf/elf wearing a tattered, ebony cloak" would make a lot of sense to me. Because race is something you absolutely can tell even when soemone is wearing a cloak.

I don't think this is true.  I can be a short breed and have humans shorter, taller or the same height as me.  Breeds the same height or taller.  Elves taller and much taller.

Well, I left breeds out for a reason... It would surely be easier to tell than sex, wouldn't it?

I suppose "the tall, thick person in a hooded, ebony cloak" is fine.

I voted no. I can generally tell at a glance irl (even when wearing a hoodie and other gender neutral clothing) that someone is a male or female. Tits or not, it's a pretty easy read usually.
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