Unsex cloaks

[Tisiphone]

Simple suggestion: whenever your sdesc is replaced by a non-sexed sdesc (e.g. 'the figure wearing the filthy hooded cloak', but not 'the male wearing the purple gimpka mask') replace all gendered emote substitutions with the gender-neutral (e.g. instead of 'his', 'its')

NB: This might end up being more annoying than not, if you end up talking to people in hoods a lot.

[nauta]

I'd not do it in 'communication' related commands (say, tell, etc.).  You can more often than not de-unsex your interlocutor by listening to their voice.

But in all other commands, sure!

[RogueGunslinger]

I would be fine with that. Makes sense for certain people to not be specifically outed as to what they chose their "char-gen sex" as. It could be that their sex is much more complicated than the binary selection the code allows.

[Desertman]

I don't think we need to change the way cloaks or masks or anything like that works.

Those work perfectly for girls who look like girls and boys who look like boys.

It seems we just need to add a gender classification at character creation for "Undefined" or "Andro", or whatever you want to go with.

Then have -that- be the trigger that determines what your special pronouns or whatever are based on your gear selection.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't think we need to change the way cloaks or masks or anything like that works.

Those work perfectly for girls who look like girls and boys who look like boys.

It seems we just need to add a gender classification at character creation for "Undefined" or "Andro", or whatever you want to go with.

Then have -that- be the trigger that determines what your special pronouns or whatever are based on your gear selection.

but...

I would be fine with that. Makes sense for certain people to not be specifically outed as to what they chose their "char-gen sex" as. It could be that their sex is much more complicated than the binary selection the code allows.

[Desertman]

Either they look like a boy, they look like a girl, or they are andro.

Is there something else that exists that I'm not aware of?

[Jihelu]

Maybe add an option of "What you actually are for info reasons but what you look like for emote reasons" and shit.

[nauta]

Either they look like a boy, they look like a girl, or they are andro.

Is there something else that exists that I'm not aware of?

Halflings.

[RogueGunslinger]

Either they look like a boy, they look like a girl, or they are andro.

Is there something else that exists that I'm not aware of?

It's not always so easy to tell when someone is one or the other. The way the code is now specifically makes that type of play impossible. If, however, the pronouns were simply made gender-neutral (very easy to do) then it would fix that problem. For instance a woman can dress a certain way and look androgynous but still be 100% female.

Only problem I see with it is you won't automatically know someone's sex without looking at them, reducing a bit of ooc awareness. No more: "you notice an extremely short female during an assassin attempt you" and automatically know that 1 female dwarf assassin in the game did it.

[Molten Heart]

Is one's curvaceousness indicative of gender and is this something a cloak would conceal?

[RogueGunslinger]

Is one's curvaceousness indicative of gender, and is this something a cloak would conceal?

Sometimes yes sometimes no.

[Desertman]

Either they look like a boy, they look like a girl, or they are andro.

Is there something else that exists that I'm not aware of?

It's not always so easy to tell when someone is one or the other. The way the code is now specifically makes that type of play impossible. If, however, the pronouns were simply made gender-neutral (very easy to do) then it would fix that problem. For instance a woman can dress a certain way and look androgynous but still be 100% female.

Only problem I see with it is you won't automatically know someone's sex without looking at them, reducing a bit of ooc awareness. No more: "you notice an extremely short female during an assassin attempt you" and automatically know that 1 female dwarf assassin in the game did it.

You just described exactly what andro is.

If that female dwarf doesn't want people to know she's female then write up a character that doesn't have female qualities and pick the option for "andro" (that doesn't currently exist).

[Desertman]

Unless you mean they look female but are specifically picking out disguises to hide their gender.

In that case this needs to be a thread about a Disguise Skill and not a "change the way cloaks work for the entire world" thread.

(I like the idea of a disguise skill.)

[RogueGunslinger]

Because then everyone who is androgynous would be specifically pointed out as androgynous when that's not how it works in real life. You go, "Oh look at the pretty woman in the distance..." then "that woman has manly features" until "wait no, the man has womanly features." and finally "Wait I can't tell." It's not a detail that should be so obvious that you don't have to look to know. People don't have a specific detector that allows them to know whether someones a male that looks female or a female that looks male, or if someone is in between that can pull off both...

[Harmless]

I think the code needs a lot of updates to better handle the gender spectrum but a blanket change would not be a good one. I voted no to this one.

[Pale Horse]

I'm one of those people that liked the main description hiding masks and cloaks.

I voted yes.

[Desertman]

Because then everyone who is androgynous would be specifically pointed out as androgynous when that's not how it works in real life. You go, "Oh look at the pretty woman in the distance..." then "that woman has manly features" until "wait no, the man has womanly features." and finally "Wait I can't tell." It's not a detail that should be so obvious that you don't have to look to know. People don't have a specific detector that allows them to know whether someones a male that looks female or a female that looks male, or if someone is in between that can pull off both...

The solution to this isn't that my very male characters shouldn't be recognized as being extremely male because they are wearing a mask.

The same goes for female characters with gigantic fuckjugs.

You would be trading a random rare instance of an andro not being seen as andro enough for their liking for the vast majority of the playerbase that does fall into a easily recognizable physical gender identity not being easily recognizable.

It's makes about as much sense as burning your fields to fight obesity so that you end up starving to death.

The only solution to this problem would be to put in character creation code that allows people to pick which exact percentage of which gender they either do or do not resemble based on standard principles surrounding what is commonly accepted as physically male or female. Then they would have to go a step further and create code that allows you to perceive said percentages within a certain spectrum of values while applying a random number as well for that bit of "error" one may or may not have depending on the situation.

The solution to this problem has nothing to do with cloaks or masks.

[Pale Horse]

Did I miss the point of this thread?

I thought it was about a better way to hide who your character is, not one about gender choice and equality in Zalanthas??

[flurry]

I'm not sure the benefit is worth the grammatical can of worms.

[RogueGunslinger]

Because then everyone who is androgynous would be specifically pointed out as androgynous when that's not how it works in real life. You go, "Oh look at the pretty woman in the distance..." then "that woman has manly features" until "wait no, the man has womanly features." and finally "Wait I can't tell." It's not a detail that should be so obvious that you don't have to look to know. People don't have a specific detector that allows them to know whether someones a male that looks female or a female that looks male, or if someone is in between that can pull off both...

The solution to this isn't that my very male characters shouldn't be recognized as being extremely male because they are wearing a mask.

The same goes for female characters with gigantic fuckjugs.

You would be trading a random rare instance of an andro not being seen as andro enough for their liking for the vast majority of the playerbase that does fall into a easily recognizable physical gender identity not being easily recognizable.

It's makes about as much sense as burning your fields to fight obesity so that you end up starving to death.

The only solution to this problem would be to put in character creation code that allows people to pick which exact percentage of which gender they either do or do not resemble based on standard principles surrounding what is commonly accepted as physically male or female. Then they would have to go a step further and create code that allows you to perceive said percentages within a certain spectrum of values while applying a random number as well for that bit of "error" one may or may not have depending on the situation.

This would all have a point if not knowing someone's gender when they're covered in a cloak (not a mask) was actually a bad thing. You're not trading one rare instance(I illustrated multiple instances, for one thing) for one very common occurrence, because the two are not comparable. One makes no sense(automatic sex-detector,) and one makes a lot of sense (not immediately knowing someones sex when they're covered in a cloak and 3 leagues to your east.)

The solution to this problem has nothing to do with cloaks or masks.

Except it IS a solution to the problem I pointed out.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm not sure the benefit is worth the grammatical can of worms.

"The tall human/dwarf/elf wearing a tattered, ebony cloak" would make a lot of sense to me. Because race is something you absolutely can tell even when soemone is wearing a cloak.

[manipura]

I'm not sure the benefit is worth the grammatical can of worms.

"The tall human/dwarf/elf wearing a tattered, ebony cloak" would make a lot of sense to me. Because race is something you absolutely can tell even when soemone is wearing a cloak.

I don't think this is true.  I can be a short breed and have humans shorter, taller or the same height as me.  Breeds the same height or taller.  Elves taller and much taller.

[RogueGunslinger]

Well, I left breeds out for a reason... It would surely be easier to tell than sex, wouldn't it?

I suppose "the tall, thick person in a hooded, ebony cloak" is fine.

[Majikal]

I voted no. I can generally tell at a glance irl (even when wearing a hoodie and other gender neutral clothing) that someone is a male or female. Tits or not, it's a pretty easy read usually.

[RogueGunslinger]

A glance is exactly what the look command is.