That is very unfortunate, of course, but inability to be online is an issue which plagues all sides. We, like you, had to hope that enough people would be around when the RPT date was announced. No favoritism was granted to us in that respect.

I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, but if staff had waited and tried to find an occasion where everyone could be online on all sides, the RPT would never have happened. It's next to impossible.

I'd rather not continue on this line, because I already feel as though I've said too much/come too close to identifying my IC persona.

The wonderful thing about ARM is that nothing's ever really over. Sunday's RPT was one portion of a plot that was set in motion RL years ago. As the saying goes, "The battle is over, but the war goes on." If you didn't like the outcome, well then, my suggestion would be to do something about it. And when you are the one doing something about it, you get to schedule the RPT for a time that's convenient for you

It was scheduled for peak time, to get as many people as possible. Akoto's right about the fact that it would be impossible to get absolutely everyone together. RPTs can be disappointing like that unfortunately, but hopefully playing through the aftermath will be enjoyable.

As another one of those people who just couldn't be bothered to log in during peak (SORRY!) I was sad I missed all the stuff I heard about. However, I also know that my clan was -more- than capable of dealing with the outcomes, and while I would have liked to join, that would have meant probably 20 other people being unable to participate.

Fridays and Saturdays, my only days off, are the -worst- times for RPTs because all you OTHER people have real life on those nights. Psh.

PC driven? I didn't know that. If it is, kudos to those that worked hard on it.

But my complaint isn't because we 'lost' or we 'win'. I don't think there really is a winning or a losing. I guess I'm a little miffed because there was so little help. Technically speaking, even though there are only a small number of PCs on one side, there's still a lot of VNPCs that should have been put into consideration. But like I said, there was little to -no- help, and what happened was that the side that tried to prevent it ended up just sitting back and watching... without going to too much IC details (I hope I didn't anyway).

Anyway, what's done is done. I guess I was hoping that we could've put up a bigger 'fight' and make it even more enjoyable for both sides.

From my observation it 'was' one sided. The side that wanted to prevent the matters "have" done something. Roll calls, organization, negotiations, plots. The problem was the virtual side. Every time they addressed the virtual population they've got ... nothing. Total and complete apathy from the most numerous and influential, albeit virtual aspects. So when time came to a show down. It was something like this 6-8 player characters versus This many player characters of the other side, plus the virtual might of an entire city, backed with Immteraction. So in the end, it was 6-8 people against "hundreds".

If the Imm backed side decided to just go ... you know what, let's just conquer this whole region. They would've had good odds, no PC would've been able to stop them that's for sure, not with that much virtual backing on their side.

Granted, there were failings amongst the PCs aswell. But I cannot really comment that or judge it, since it's too IC.


So if Allanak one day decided to build a fortress 3 rooms away from the gates of Tuluk because House Borsail wanted some more Tuluki slaves, and they would've came with armies, and bands of slave laborers and military units. All that while Tuluki were devoid of any Templars or anyone else really who could've commanded the NPCs, instead limited down to some ... perhaps patriotic, but in the end near independant grebbers. While the whole virtual population of the templars, nobility, and legion, and Utep himself were like "Meh. Do whatever you like citizens, it's your choice".  Would it still be considered Tuluki failure in preventing the Naki plans, if that half a dozen grebbers would just go "Screw this, we'll just watch"

This issue of people being unable to log in at a given specific day and time for an RPT was one of the issues addressed in the experiment that was the Copper War HRPT - essentially an HRPT that stretched on over a number of days.

I know Halaster's polling and solicitations for feedback about that style of HRPT ended years ago, but I'd like to reiterate my vote in favor.  I hope we have another ongoing HRPT sometime in the near future.

That said, this was an entertaining event and I'm glad I was able to be logged in for it.  For those of you disappointed about not being logged in for one reason or another, bear in mind this was only an RPT, and not as monumental as a full-on HRPT.  Even some people who do log in for the biggest RPTs and HRPTs have other complications to deal with.

Edit to respond to what was posted as I typed:  As for the above complaints about a lack of involvement from the virtual and npc support structure, I know from experience that can be a bitter pill to swallow, but I don't think it's ever done deliberately or maliciously.

My primary complaint is that the things thrown our way seemed haphazard and nonsensical.  That said, it was damned fun.  It could have perhaps been more fun and organized if I had reacted with a bit more initiative.

For all those complaining, I know there was plenty of opportunity to take initiative.  It's always fun when you take the initiative.

Quote from: Rotten on November 04, 2009, 12:34:52 AM
My primary complaint is that the things thrown our way seemed haphazard and nonsensical.  That said, it was damned fun.  It could have perhaps been more fun and organized if I had reacted with a bit more initiative.

For all those complaining, I know there was plenty of opportunity to take initiative.  It's always fun when you take the initiative.

Though I no longer staff, I have been present at and "organized" HRPTs (or at least attempted to) before, and thought I would emerge briefly from lurkville to shed a little light on what a staff member might be experiencing while a battle-oriented RPT is going on.  While it may have been said before, I've no doubt that people could benefit from a fresh perspective.

I know that to every mortal, an RPT (especially a combat RPT) is extremely chaotic.  Spam sends your screen scrolling up at a thousand miles an hour, you can't keep track of anything, your attempts to emote and speak in reaction to the big events taking place are lost, your heart is pounding as you struggle to keep up with what's going on, you race around in giant groups from one area to the next (all the while having no idea where you're going), and you wonder if you're about to die.  Sometimes you do die.

For a staff member, things are a little different, but no less chaotic or unexpected.  We have unlimited access to every piece of information in the world, but that does not mean we are not as surprised and concerned about the events as you are.  Most of what we are doing is racing frantically to keep up with the events that you, the players, generate, in reaction to your situation.

During the Gith War of 07, there must have been about ten staff members running things at once.  If you think your screen was scrolling fast, mine was scrolling faster.  If you think it's chaotic being in one room at a time, try being in five places at once, sussing out the situation in all of them, and keeping up with updates from your fellow staff.  If you think it's chaotic trying to fight the bad guys, try BEING the bad guys - you need a new body every couple of seconds!  If you think it's hard to toss off an emote or a say every now and then while figuring out who to assist, try frantically attempting to solve a million little problems before players start getting confused, irritated, or dead. 

You see, it's not -our- lives we're worried about.  It's yours.  We don't want you to die to a stupid accident with the crime code.  We don't want you to explode because we accidentally targeted you with a an npc that is meant to fight units.  That's not a fun way to die, it leads to bitterness, and it also means we might be saddled with handling a resurrection in the middle of all the chaos.  In the Gith War, I recall a certain Half-Giant dying to his own side at least twice.  It was an accident.  We had to rez him.  And while we were doing that, we were also trying to burn down half the city, keep an eye on what the players were doing to react to our attacks, approve applications for the recently dead, and inhabit npcs to yell witty things at everyone in the middle of all the chaos.

I've never been so stressed out by a computer game in my life.  Even thinking about that time gives me a bit of a headache.  But it was quite a lot of fun, all the same.  So, again, though I no longer play as a staff member, I would like to take this time to remind you all to be kind to them, because if you think it's confusing for you, well...they're right there with you.

Sunday's RPT was a lot of fun.  I was lucky enough to experience a little bit of it as a player, and I was very happy with it.  I haven't gotten to attend one of those things since I retired.  So good job, staff.  I can tell you all really got your rocks off on it.

Quote from: Eukelade on November 04, 2009, 01:09:04 AM

Quote from: Rotten on November 04, 2009, 12:34:52 AM
I can tell you all really got your rocks off on it.

nice pun

Quote from: Rotten on November 04, 2009, 12:34:52 AM
My primary complaint is that the things thrown our way seemed haphazard and nonsensical.  That said, it was damned fun.  It could have perhaps been more fun and organized if I had reacted with a bit more initiative.

For all those complaining, I know there was plenty of opportunity to take initiative.  It's always fun when you take the initiative.

It does ruffle my feathers.

How do you know no one took the initiative?

You knew something is going to happen. You spy out the estimate time of when and how and who. You make sure you tell everyone. You make sure PCs and NPCs who is in power to do something are aware. You help to make sure initiatives get rolling, RPTs happen in preparation do happen. You expect some feedback from NPC superiors. Nothing coming. You take another initiative, stumble blindly on. Oh wait. Result came back! But you already moved on to plan B and the answer is irrelevant. No problem. Carry on with the initiative. You can't be around for the RPT. So make sure your clannies and friends are aware. Shoot report to Imms in case they aren't around too so the NPC can be represented in the RPT.

There is only so much you can do without a total disregard for the virtual world and the npcs. For some, the RPT is fun. That is great.The RPT is a point of colossal disappointment to another side. May the next one be better.

But for the third side, the rp and plots which lead to it is very interesting and fun. The battle is lost. The war wages on.

It is not the staff's responsibility to tell your clanned PC what to do or how to play except in the most general terms (not anymore at least).  Break documentation entirely?  We'll probably store your character, arrange to have them fired, etc (if it makes sense to do any of that).  The majority of player interaction with the world falls into a grey area not determined directly by staff.

You have access to documentation for your clan.  You have access to discussion boards for your clan.  You have access to e-mail with clan staff (if not a very recent response, you know what was stated previously).  As someone who has seen all of this, the virtual world is there to back up PC actions and react to them.  In the absence of PCs in a clan, we would certainly make the virtual world react--however, with PCs there, we depend on PCs to make the first move, show some initiative, and maybe some leadership in how their clan responds.  Us responding for you forces the situation without regard for PC responses.  We do our best to keep from deus ex'ing plots on a small OR large scale (we plan several outcomes in advance for most RPTs).  If in the odd case that you don't have direct response from your clan staff or you don't understand the IC response from clan staff (which happens at times), you still have your character that you are responsible for.

If you were a Kassigarh guard wishing up because there was a burglar in the Estate and you wanted to know what to do, you could look at the documentation or common sense to determine what to do.  Your very job function is to protect the Estate and nobility and their interests.  Are they being threatened?  Go kick some ass.  If you were a Borsail noble wishing up because you are trapped in your Estate with gith surrounding it and wanted to know what to do, you could probably go with the most basic of instincts:  survival.  You make the initiative to survive, and we'll help.  We won't throw you a rope before you try to do something.  If you died huddled in your Estate bedroom to a gith with a knife, waiting on staff to come rescue you or give you an out, well, them's the breaks.  (For the sake of argument, I'm applying current staff policy to the gith war situation.  There's more complexities to any situation, certainly, but I'm just making a general point here.)

That point: wishing up for staff to help you and tell you what to do is not your first option.  Our staff policy has changed on these matters; it would behoove everyone to look this over.  We are focusing on PLAYER LED and PLAYER CENTRIC plots.  

From the actual changes:

Quote from: Adhira
Now that all staff are in place and up to date with their clans and duties we will be moving on to the next change in the way that we staff.

Staff will no longer be animating the 'big boss' and senior NPCs of the clans for report ins and general catch ups. When a player needs information from the higher ranks of the house this will, in general, be given via email.

Staff instead will be concentrating on facilitating the stories that players are creating. The overall goal is that gameplay happens at a level that is accessible to players, allowing them to feel a very real part of the action.

Another goal with the change is to move the focus of Storytellers from the administrative side of running clans, to the story oriented side. With a Highlord in charge of each group we hope that much of the admin work can be relieved and with dedicated HL's for each group decisions can get sign off at the team level.

The overall aim of this is to see STs out there animating every day, because they –want- to, to see plots and stories that reflect what players are interested in and want to achieve and staff supporting what you all are doing.

FAQ (in advance):

Does this mean staff don't do clan animations anymore?

Not at all. What we want to do is move the focus on to the players, shift the gears down to your level. Instead of playing the big boss and directing the play we're there to add flavor and facilitate the players stories.

What about when players need IC reactions from the House, if we don't have 'seniors' does that mean no reaction?

This change does not mean that the House structure, ranks and goals go away. The npcs can still come out, if needed, what we don't want is staff tied up for 2 hours listening to a report that they read all about in email. This type of interaction, while often appreciated by staff and players, could be better replaced by more active animations – those boss npcs might still turn up to give you a promotion, bitch you out or just surprise you by having a drink at the bar.

How will players know what they can do, if we don't have the NPCs to tell them?

This is an area for us to work on. One thing that has been suggested is making up 'job descriptions', or guides, for the different types of sponsored or leader roles. For example your Merchant might be told that he has the right to:
- Hire crafters
- Hire an assistant
- Arrange for hunters to seek out specialist resources to make goods
- Hire the byn to assist in expeditions
- Work on trade partnerships with fellow merchants in other houses
- Work with enterprising independents to 'incorporate' their goods into the house lines
- Research new product lines

And so on. By giving you guys a better idea of what you have authority over we hope that you'll then have more confidence to do these (and other) things.

What will staff be animating then?

All kinds of things! Staff might turn up where you least expect it., playing those npcs that add to the stories players are telling, or just add the general ambience that Armageddon thrives on.

As an example:
GMH staff might each create/pick a lower level Kuraci npc. Maybe a soldier that rides along with the unit sometimes, or that skilled and aloof Outrider that turns up to show how awesome they can be. The gossipy crafter, or the whore who wanders through tavern might be favourite picks.

Noble house staff might make a fellow junior noble to sit and gossip with their pc compatriots (or plot against them). They might make an aide to Lady Fancypants who likes to feed their noble pieces of gossip from within the house or sits with all the other aides and gives them those little pointers they need to manipulate and bend society to their will.

If staff are only facilitating what the players do what happens to all their cool ideas?

The idea here is to move away from large, preplanned plots for clans towards plots that are based on what the players are doing or interested in. We already do a good deal of this, by freeing ourselves up from some of the 'overhead' of administrative animating for clans we're hoping to give staff more time to do these stories.

What this doesn't mean is that we never get to come up with plot ideas or stories, instead we take the ideas, or the impetus, from the players and work from there.

Does that mean there's no big plots, only small stories? I like the huge stuff!

While we want to focus our attentions on making the game more player driven as staff we still need to share a vision for the game. There will always be a need for oversight and direction at the macro level, what we want to make sure is that most of the action plays out at the micro level, where the players are, rather than up high where you are more observer than participant.

I still don't understand /I hate this
If this doesn't make sense to you there is a discussion topic in general discussions where I'm happy to address or clarify concerns.

Some of the emphasized points above are the points I wished to make, though the majority doesn't apply directly to the situation of this past RPT.  Before the staffing change, players DID take a lot of their cues from staff on what their characters should do in a clan.  That is not the case anymore.  You get set up, you have documentation, and you have a discussion board.  You can e-mail us, sure.  In this particular case, I would say that if you had nothing you could have referred to at all, you would have ample reason to be disappointed with the RPT.  That isn't the case, though.  At best, it would probably be a good idea for you to get together with your clan staff to discuss how exactly these staffing changes apply to certain clans and groups, because not all clans and groups are the same.

Your first option is to consider what your character would do.  You figure that out based on documentation, your character's history, previous interactions, posts on a clan discussion board, etc.  Maybe your character wants to run away.  Maybe your character wants to stand and fight.  Maybe your character has a serious problem with something going on.  If your reaction is to watch and wait, then watch and wait--but don't expect staff to force the issue if your PC is not being harmed.  We will (probably) not animate to force an issue between two PC groups that are seemingly opposed in interests.  We will wait for players to do something first.

I don't mean to come down on the naysayers of the RPT--I just want to explain to all players what we are expecting in major RPTs, minor RPTs, and all interaction with the game in the future.  If your complaint is that staff didn't prompt you to do something, your complaint is technically correct--but as a whole it is discounting the new staffing policy.  We aren't perfect, we could all do things better--but that includes players AND staff.  There may be a legitimate complaint, but by the nature of IC events, you can't report that on the GDB--so people like me (and like other players) can only see the gist of your complaint, not the entirety of it.  Please use e-mail to touch base with and communicate with your clan staff instead of using the GDB to point blame at them, however muted your protestations might be.  Heck, CC me on it; I've said as much before.  You might find that your clan staff has a different perspective on things, or that things DID happen that you did not see.  Perhaps there are future ramifications because of what did or did not happen.

edited: I've responded to Nyr. But then reread the "last" bolded part, and yes. This kinda thing really should be dealt with e-mails. Hopefully the people involved will have the initiative to send 'those' out atleast.

I enjoyed this event and feel that even if I was more active in the game my PC wouldn't have had it any other way.

Definitely a "Good Riddance" moment.

Cheers,
HD

I'm just curious as to why it wasn't more dangerous.

*grin*

Quote from: Nyr on November 04, 2009, 08:03:39 AM
That point: wishing up for staff to help you and tell you what to do is not your first option.  Our staff policy has changed on these matters; it would behoove everyone to look this over.  We are focusing on PLAYER LED and PLAYER CENTRIC plots.  

If your reaction is to watch and wait, then watch and wait--but don't expect staff to force the issue if your PC is not being harmed.  We will (probably) not animate to force an issue between two PC groups that are seemingly opposed in interests. We will wait for players to do something first.

I think the complaint wasn't necessarily that players were sitting around on RPT day, seeking direction from their staffers as to what to do next, or what direction to take. 

From my perspective and understanding, there certainly wasn't any lack of initiative from the players involved.  A lot of groundwork was done, staffers were e-mailed, and as much as possible was played out in-game, with plenty of lead time to allow things to shake out.  But I think the issue the 'nay-sayers' had was that there was seemingly little to no results seen from the efforts they put in.  So in essence when it came time for RPT day, it seemed like one side was left out to dry, because it appeared that there wasn't the same level of support provided by the staff for them.  Perhaps part of the reason was that many of the clans involved are smaller ones, and there were multiple clans involved, so maybe things got lost amongst one staff - player communication to another.  Maybe it's that these clans don't really have designated positions for player leaders, so that as underlings, talking to other underlings, there's another layer of staff red tape to go through to try and get something done through virtual leadership.  Other clans are fully virtual, so the only way to communicate with them is through the staff.

All I can say is that I myself e-mailed my staff, posted on my own clan board, did my best to arrange and play things out IC'ly, and from what I saw, I wasn't alone, even within my own clan; from what I can see, these are the very suggestions put forth for players looking to take the initiative in driving the new flavour of non-staff-led plots.

All I can say is, the entire event as experienced by me was well done! I was shaking so hard, I could hardly type, let alone read the scroll!

Needless to say, my character was hanging on to dear life as well. Wide eyed it was, and scared out of its mind. 

I saw plenty of opportunities for the event to unfold in many directions. PCs, things that likely were not PCs, and stuff I can't even try to quantify, all had their chances and took them. The day was won by the brave, who grabbed it up in their bloody hands, spitting and saying -this ere is mine!-

My kudos to staff and players alike.

Quote from: IntuitiveApathy on November 04, 2009, 04:10:59 PM

Quote from: Nyr on November 04, 2009, 08:03:39 AM
That point: wishing up for staff to help you and tell you what to do is not your first option.  Our staff policy has changed on these matters; it would behoove everyone to look this over.  We are focusing on PLAYER LED and PLAYER CENTRIC plots. 

If your reaction is to watch and wait, then watch and wait--but don't expect staff to force the issue if your PC is not being harmed.  We will (probably) not animate to force an issue between two PC groups that are seemingly opposed in interests. We will wait for players to do something first.

I think the complaint wasn't necessarily that players were sitting around on RPT day, seeking direction from their staffers as to what to do next, or what direction to take. 

From my perspective and understanding, there certainly wasn't any lack of initiative from the players involved.  A lot of groundwork was done, staffers were e-mailed, and as much as possible was played out in-game, with plenty of lead time to allow things to shake out.  But I think the issue the 'nay-sayers' had was that there was seemingly little to no results seen from the efforts they put in.  So in essence when it came time for RPT day, it seemed like one side was left out to dry, because it appeared that there wasn't the same level of support provided by the staff for them.  Perhaps part of the reason was that many of the clans involved are smaller ones, and there were multiple clans involved, so maybe things got lost amongst one staff - player communication to another.  Maybe it's that these clans don't really have designated positions for player leaders, so that as underlings, talking to other underlings, there's another layer of staff red tape to go through to try and get something done through virtual leadership.  Other clans are fully virtual, so the only way to communicate with them is through the staff.

All I can say is that I myself e-mailed my staff, posted on my own clan board, did my best to arrange and play things out IC'ly, and from what I saw, I wasn't alone, even within my own clan; from what I can see, these are the very suggestions put forth for players looking to take the initiative in driving the new flavour of non-staff-led plots.

I never said plans were not made, although plans, GDB discussions, documentation, and e-mails are GREAT!  They will help for the time when the shit hits the proverbial rotational device.

Quote from: NyrThe majority of player interaction with the world falls into a grey area not determined directly by staff.

Initiative is in the hands of players; even in D&D, you roll for initiative, the DM doesn't do it for you.  Those on-the-spot decisions--those can't be made by staff.  They need to be made by players.  Now, if you have to communicate or interact with the fully virtual world, you need to wish up (almost goes without saying), especially during a major RPT.  We usually catch wishes, and we'll catch that before almost anything else.  It's possible we'll miss other stuff.  We're fallible.

Speaking of which, I did check logs specifically to make sure that no wishes were overlooked.  Otherwise I'd be a pretty big jerk for saying that initiative is in the hands of players while ignoring their cries for help via wish.

I think the staff did a -terrific- job handling this hrpt. Seems to me there were several ways things could have concluded, with consequences directly reflecting player initiative and actions. I think some people still have this 'staff are out to get me' mentality, and believe that rpts either end up with Plan A, or Plan B. Like Nyr said, you have to see past the black and white to fully understand and appreciate the grey area.

My issue: I took initiative personally during the RPT. I didn't think to wish up, however, because I did not feel it was necessary. As such, my actions were all but forgotten, except to a select few.

On the flipside, my actions would have had little or no effect to the immediate outcome of the RPT.

Quote from: BlazinDayz on November 04, 2009, 04:56:04 PM
I think some people still have this 'staff are out to get me' mentality, and believe that rpts either end up with Plan A, or Plan B.

I really don't think this is the case here and I want to say that I appreciate all the work the staff obviously did put into the RPT.

I've been involved in many RPT's in the past, and have had different experiences from different 'angles' with them - the vast majority of them positive.

But the fact that the various other complainants in this thread are players that are seemingly from different clans than the one that I play in should say something - a certain section of the playerbase (albeit likely a small portion) cut across a variety of players/clans was affected and from what I can see, the complaints are fairly legitimate.  Anyway, the whole point of airing those complaints is the hope that we can make improvements for the next time around.   I don't think people purposely set out to be wet towels.

I also want to say that while the actual RPT was happening, I felt much the same way Xagon did.   I didn't want to wish up to try to pursue anything -while the RPT was occurring- because I knew the staff was busy, that things were crazy.  That's what all the prior work was for - and I think that's why people were left with a bit of a bad taste in their mouths when nothing came of their preparation either leading up to or on the actual day of.

Feel free to wish up during an RPT to make sure we know that you're up to something in specific.

Other than that, please take any of these specific gripes to your specific immortals so that explanations can be had using specific examples and explanations that cannot be made on the GDB.

Maybe, just maybe, that "lack of support" felt was actually... IC?

Quote from: BlazinDayz on November 04, 2009, 04:56:04 PM
I think the staff did a -terrific- job handling this hrpt. Seems to me there were several ways things could have concluded, with consequences directly reflecting player initiative and actions. I think some people still have this 'staff are out to get me' mentality, and believe that rpts either end up with Plan A, or Plan B. Like Nyr said, you have to see past the black and white to fully understand and appreciate the grey area.

That really isn't the case. But like Nyr said, things like that should be handled in emails. So I'm going to do just that.

Ah, the cold blade of deceit sliding oh-so-slowly in between your shoulder blades......*sniff*sniff*.....smell that? Smells like the Armageddon spirit we all love and hate.

Personally, I think the staff places too much work on itself.  At the same time, I think they do it because the playerbase has a tendency to act like dullards.  It's a hard sell.