Sundays RPT

[JustAnotherGuy]

Hurrah to Staff for a very entertaining and wide-spread RPT.  ICly my PC got reports for all over and it was impressive with how wide scale it was.  Thank you for the fun and interesting times.  I do hope everyone got a small bit of fun with it.

[Olgaris]

I had fun. Also hope you enjoyed it.

[Pale Horse]

I'm sure it was great...

[spicemustflow]

I always miss the good things...

[Spice Spice Baby]

I missed most of it, but what little I saw of it was very tense and well-done.

Kudos to the players and imms involved.

[Adiadochokinesis]

Many war beetles were lost this day.

[Zoltan]

That was fun, kudos to everyone involved, especially staff and clan leaders for keeping it truckin'.

[MarshallDFX]

Yes.  Thank you to all staff.

[Xeran Van Houten]

Quite fun.

But there were no talking vestrics... That made me sad.

[Xagon]

Quite fun.

But there were no talking vestrics... That made me sad.

YES THERE WERE.

[charas]

That was awesome, thanks a lot everyone.

[Bogre]

Many war beetles were lost this day.

[jcljules]

Mind crunching insanity of the highest caliber.

[deviant storm]

Anything that brings Hot Dancer out to play rocks by definition.

Agreed, that was an excellent rpt. I had fun.

[Cutthroat]

Holy awesome that was awesome.

[Kassindra]

I had fun! Thanks for the awesome rpt.

[Akoto]

The RPT was superb! What ended up happening far surpassed what I'd imagined.

Thank you to the immortals for your hard work, and to the player leaders, as well. It's never easy to maintain an orderly flow in that kind of chaos.

[Gimfalisette]

When you need a mount put down, you can always count on the Byn.

+1 to the "It was fun, thanks, staff and PC leadership."

[brytta.leofa]

"Not mah mount!"
- Desertman, 1996

[flurry]

I missed it.  But I'm glad to hear it was fun.

[Zoltan]

When you need a mount put down, you can always count on the Byn.

+1 to the "It was fun, thanks, staff and PC leadership."

Eh, those beetles had it coming. What with their disconcerting hisses and mandible clacking.

[JustAnotherGuy]

And they were shitting everywhere.  I will fondly remember the command to clean up all the shit.

[Xeran Van Houten]

Someone could have made some bank just following the group with a large bag...

[tortall]

Man, my favorite character EVER died, and I wasn't even around to experience it. Uber suckage. :-(

[Jdr]

It was horrible and embarrassing.

[razorback]

That was fun. I think I had like five people in my head telling me what was going on. Then chasing around 'Nak and getting kicked in the chest by a big ass stone foot. Sweet.

[Kankfly]

It was fun... for only one side. Not so very fun for the side that wanted to stop it. It was really scripted, obviously it's the way the Imms wanted it to happen. So there was little to no Imm support. Having it scripted is fine, really, but at least give us the pretense of a fighting chance.

[Me]

It was fun... for only one side. Not so very fun for the side that wanted to stop it. It was really scripted, obviously it's the way the Imms wanted it to happen. So there was little to no Imm support. Having it scripted is fine, really, but at least give us the pretense of a fighting chance.

Heh

[Adieren]

After I stopped crying, it was fun. 

[Nyr]

It was fun... for only one side. Not so very fun for the side that wanted to stop it. It was really scripted, obviously it's the way the Imms wanted it to happen. So there was little to no Imm support. Having it scripted is fine, really, but at least give us the pretense of a fighting chance.

Not necessarily.  We planned for multiple outcomes, same as any HRPT, and any folk with actual coded or virtual power behind them that wished up usually did get their wishes answered.  Nearly every major group in-game had their staff online or at least someone around that could give appropriate support if they did need it--and particularly if they asked for it.  While we'll make the world react appropriately in the absence of players for a particular group, if players from that group are around, we expect them to take the initiative (that's the general view staff has on this) so as not to deus ex machina any particular reaction.

If you felt like your particular clan or group did not have the appropriate support, please send me an e-mail and I'll be happy to look into it.

[JustAnotherGuy]

I know my wishes were answered and I know we had Imm support throughout.  Was rather intense because of it.  Cheers!

[Olgaris]

It was fun... for only one side. Not so very fun for the side that wanted to stop it. It was really scripted, obviously it's the way the Imms wanted it to happen. So there was little to no Imm support. Having it scripted is fine, really, but at least give us the pretense of a fighting chance.

Yeah, that's just pretty much absolutely wrong. This was all completely PC led. PCs came up with the idea, PCs went through with it. At one point it looked like they were going to fail. Unfortunately no opposing group(s) capitalized. It requires more than watching to stop something from happening.

[Gimfalisette]

I would say from my observation of / participation in this and other RPTs, there is always a chance for someone to lose and someone else to win...and it's heavily dependent on PCs to determine the outcome. For example, to my understanding the Bard's Barrel in Allanak was destroyed (and some PCs and NPCs killed) during the gith invasion 2 RL years ago specifically because the PCs who were leading the defense of the city failed to defend the Barrel. Yeah guys, you can partially thank me for the destruction of the Barrel :/

But as Olgaris said, merely watching what happens isn't the same thing as making sure it doesn't happen. Lots of times players believe that outcomes are already set--when they are really not already set--and therefore do nothing rather than something. This is an example of thinking with your OOC brain rather than your IC brain.

[JustAnotherGuy]

For example... who knows what could have happened in Allanak if certain people weren't there.

[shadeoux]

For example... who knows what could have happened in Allanak if certain people weren't there.

I for one, enjoyed it though I was simply watching, -thats- what we were supposed to do... Thanks IMMS even watching the outcome happen was enjoyable.

[Akoto]

As someone who was pretty involved in the events of the RPT, I can assure you that things definitely did not go entirely according to plan. There were many unexpected opportunities for disaster and/or utter failure, and solutions had to be figured out on the fly. Staff was not running things for us on a guaranteed script.

[JustAnotherGuy]

As someone who was pretty involved in the events of the RPT, I can assure you that things definitely did not go entirely according to plan. There were many unexpected opportunities for disaster and/or utter failure, and solutions had to be figured out on the fly. Staff was not running things for us on a guaranteed script.

Ain't that the truth lol.

[Gunnerblaster]

As someone who was pretty involved in the events of the RPT, I can assure you that things definitely did not go entirely according to plan. There were many unexpected opportunities for disaster and/or utter failure, and solutions had to be figured out on the fly. Staff was not running things for us on a guaranteed script.

Ain't that the truth lol.

I loved every second of it.

[Jengal]

Is it bad that I have no idea what people are talking about? 

[FantasyWriter]

I haven't had a PC in nearly a month

But I can't wait to get IG and see WTF happened.

[Jestor]

I am sure there are lots of folks who don't know what went on or is going on (myself included).  So don't feel left out!  You are in good company with those of us on the 'ignorance is bliss' side of this RPT fence 

[Jengal]

Good.. 

[Little_Cacophony]

As someone who was pretty involved in the events of the RPT, I can assure you that things definitely did not go entirely according to plan. There were many unexpected opportunities for disaster and/or utter failure, and solutions had to be figured out on the fly. Staff was not running things for us on a guaranteed script.

At the very least, you had time to get a plan up and going.

[spicemustflow]

I would say from my observation of / participation in this and other RPTs, there is always a chance for someone to lose and someone else to win...and it's heavily dependent on PCs to determine the outcome.

This is extremely encouraging to hear.

[HammerofJericho]

Omg, that one guy with that one thing, who did that thing with that thing. That thing was awesome!

[Akoto]

As someone who was pretty involved in the events of the RPT, I can assure you that things definitely did not go entirely according to plan. There were many unexpected opportunities for disaster and/or utter failure, and solutions had to be figured out on the fly. Staff was not running things for us on a guaranteed script.

At the very least, you had time to get a plan up and going.

Well, yes, but that's just the nature of the beast. Arm isn't a consent-only game where everyone can foresee dangers. Sometimes, people will get the jump on you.

[Spice Spice Baby]

This was one of the better RPTs I've ever been a part of and at least in my experience, the amount of staff interaction and assistance was distributed fairly evenly. It looked to me like all parties involved had a fighting chance.

[saquartey]

during the gith invasion 2 RL years ago

That was two years ago?  My god.

[Little_Cacophony]

As someone who was pretty involved in the events of the RPT, I can assure you that things definitely did not go entirely according to plan. There were many unexpected opportunities for disaster and/or utter failure, and solutions had to be figured out on the fly. Staff was not running things for us on a guaranteed script.

At the very least, you had time to get a plan up and going.

Well, yes, but that's just the nature of the beast. Arm isn't a consent-only game where everyone can foresee dangers. Sometimes, people will get the jump on you.

Indeed. Especially when it is on a time where you simply cannot log on. It is just a pain when icly, people is aware of what and when it will happen, but cannot do a thing due to ooc restrictions.

When I watched people doing tons of shit icly and made so much effort, but then could not do a thing because even if their PCs would not have missed the event for the world, they had to. OOC timing is OOC timing. That is just tough.

I am glad people are having fun at the RPT.

Please consider my opinion as an idle observation. I simply did not believe your comment on 'plans did not all go according to expectation' going to comfort people who had laid down plans and preparations but could not shoot it off because most of the people involved cannot make it online at the time.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Um... just as an aside:

I'd have really liked to be logged in for the RPT  myself but couldn't because of RL issues. I'm sure people on all sides had the same issue. After all, no matter how much time you spend in Zalanthas, you do still have that 'real life' thing that comes to call at the most inopportune times.

Also: Damn I heard so much cool shit about the RPT... I REALLY WISH I COULD HAVE SEEN IT MYSELF.

Logs in a year, plz?

[Akoto]

That is very unfortunate, of course, but inability to be online is an issue which plagues all sides. We, like you, had to hope that enough people would be around when the RPT date was announced. No favoritism was granted to us in that respect.

I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, but if staff had waited and tried to find an occasion where everyone could be online on all sides, the RPT would never have happened. It's next to impossible.

I'd rather not continue on this line, because I already feel as though I've said too much/come too close to identifying my IC persona.

[Gimfalisette]

The wonderful thing about ARM is that nothing's ever really over. Sunday's RPT was one portion of a plot that was set in motion RL years ago. As the saying goes, "The battle is over, but the war goes on." If you didn't like the outcome, well then, my suggestion would be to do something about it. And when you are the one doing something about it, you get to schedule the RPT for a time that's convenient for you

[Cutthroat]

It was scheduled for peak time, to get as many people as possible. Akoto's right about the fact that it would be impossible to get absolutely everyone together. RPTs can be disappointing like that unfortunately, but hopefully playing through the aftermath will be enjoyable.

[Riev]

As another one of those people who just couldn't be bothered to log in during peak (SORRY!) I was sad I missed all the stuff I heard about. However, I also know that my clan was -more- than capable of dealing with the outcomes, and while I would have liked to join, that would have meant probably 20 other people being unable to participate.

Fridays and Saturdays, my only days off, are the -worst- times for RPTs because all you OTHER people have real life on those nights. Psh.

[Kankfly]

PC driven? I didn't know that. If it is, kudos to those that worked hard on it.

But my complaint isn't because we 'lost' or we 'win'. I don't think there really is a winning or a losing. I guess I'm a little miffed because there was so little help. Technically speaking, even though there are only a small number of PCs on one side, there's still a lot of VNPCs that should have been put into consideration. But like I said, there was little to -no- help, and what happened was that the side that tried to prevent it ended up just sitting back and watching... without going to too much IC details (I hope I didn't anyway).

Anyway, what's done is done. I guess I was hoping that we could've put up a bigger 'fight' and make it even more enjoyable for both sides.

[SmashedTregil]

From my observation it 'was' one sided. The side that wanted to prevent the matters "have" done something. Roll calls, organization, negotiations, plots. The problem was the virtual side. Every time they addressed the virtual population they've got ... nothing. Total and complete apathy from the most numerous and influential, albeit virtual aspects. So when time came to a show down. It was something like this 6-8 player characters versus This many player characters of the other side, plus the virtual might of an entire city, backed with Immteraction. So in the end, it was 6-8 people against "hundreds".

If the Imm backed side decided to just go ... you know what, let's just conquer this whole region. They would've had good odds, no PC would've been able to stop them that's for sure, not with that much virtual backing on their side.

Granted, there were failings amongst the PCs aswell. But I cannot really comment that or judge it, since it's too IC.


So if Allanak one day decided to build a fortress 3 rooms away from the gates of Tuluk because House Borsail wanted some more Tuluki slaves, and they would've came with armies, and bands of slave laborers and military units. All that while Tuluki were devoid of any Templars or anyone else really who could've commanded the NPCs, instead limited down to some ... perhaps patriotic, but in the end near independant grebbers. While the whole virtual population of the templars, nobility, and legion, and Utep himself were like "Meh. Do whatever you like citizens, it's your choice".  Would it still be considered Tuluki failure in preventing the Naki plans, if that half a dozen grebbers would just go "Screw this, we'll just watch"

[slipshod]

This issue of people being unable to log in at a given specific day and time for an RPT was one of the issues addressed in the experiment that was the Copper War HRPT - essentially an HRPT that stretched on over a number of days.

I know Halaster's polling and solicitations for feedback about that style of HRPT ended years ago, but I'd like to reiterate my vote in favor.  I hope we have another ongoing HRPT sometime in the near future.

That said, this was an entertaining event and I'm glad I was able to be logged in for it.  For those of you disappointed about not being logged in for one reason or another, bear in mind this was only an RPT, and not as monumental as a full-on HRPT.  Even some people who do log in for the biggest RPTs and HRPTs have other complications to deal with.

Edit to respond to what was posted as I typed:  As for the above complaints about a lack of involvement from the virtual and npc support structure, I know from experience that can be a bitter pill to swallow, but I don't think it's ever done deliberately or maliciously.

[Rotten]

My primary complaint is that the things thrown our way seemed haphazard and nonsensical.  That said, it was damned fun.  It could have perhaps been more fun and organized if I had reacted with a bit more initiative.

For all those complaining, I know there was plenty of opportunity to take initiative.  It's always fun when you take the initiative.

[Eukelade]

My primary complaint is that the things thrown our way seemed haphazard and nonsensical.  That said, it was damned fun.  It could have perhaps been more fun and organized if I had reacted with a bit more initiative.

For all those complaining, I know there was plenty of opportunity to take initiative.  It's always fun when you take the initiative.

Though I no longer staff, I have been present at and "organized" HRPTs (or at least attempted to) before, and thought I would emerge briefly from lurkville to shed a little light on what a staff member might be experiencing while a battle-oriented RPT is going on.  While it may have been said before, I've no doubt that people could benefit from a fresh perspective.

I know that to every mortal, an RPT (especially a combat RPT) is extremely chaotic.  Spam sends your screen scrolling up at a thousand miles an hour, you can't keep track of anything, your attempts to emote and speak in reaction to the big events taking place are lost, your heart is pounding as you struggle to keep up with what's going on, you race around in giant groups from one area to the next (all the while having no idea where you're going), and you wonder if you're about to die.  Sometimes you do die.

For a staff member, things are a little different, but no less chaotic or unexpected.  We have unlimited access to every piece of information in the world, but that does not mean we are not as surprised and concerned about the events as you are.  Most of what we are doing is racing frantically to keep up with the events that you, the players, generate, in reaction to your situation.

During the Gith War of 07, there must have been about ten staff members running things at once.  If you think your screen was scrolling fast, mine was scrolling faster.  If you think it's chaotic being in one room at a time, try being in five places at once, sussing out the situation in all of them, and keeping up with updates from your fellow staff.  If you think it's chaotic trying to fight the bad guys, try BEING the bad guys - you need a new body every couple of seconds!  If you think it's hard to toss off an emote or a say every now and then while figuring out who to assist, try frantically attempting to solve a million little problems before players start getting confused, irritated, or dead. 

You see, it's not -our- lives we're worried about.  It's yours.  We don't want you to die to a stupid accident with the crime code.  We don't want you to explode because we accidentally targeted you with a an npc that is meant to fight units.  That's not a fun way to die, it leads to bitterness, and it also means we might be saddled with handling a resurrection in the middle of all the chaos.  In the Gith War, I recall a certain Half-Giant dying to his own side at least twice.  It was an accident.  We had to rez him.  And while we were doing that, we were also trying to burn down half the city, keep an eye on what the players were doing to react to our attacks, approve applications for the recently dead, and inhabit npcs to yell witty things at everyone in the middle of all the chaos.

I've never been so stressed out by a computer game in my life.  Even thinking about that time gives me a bit of a headache.  But it was quite a lot of fun, all the same.  So, again, though I no longer play as a staff member, I would like to take this time to remind you all to be kind to them, because if you think it's confusing for you, well...they're right there with you.

Sunday's RPT was a lot of fun.  I was lucky enough to experience a little bit of it as a player, and I was very happy with it.  I haven't gotten to attend one of those things since I retired.  So good job, staff.  I can tell you all really got your rocks off on it.

[shadeoux]

I can tell you all really got your rocks off on it.

nice pun

[Little_Cacophony]

My primary complaint is that the things thrown our way seemed haphazard and nonsensical.  That said, it was damned fun.  It could have perhaps been more fun and organized if I had reacted with a bit more initiative.

For all those complaining, I know there was plenty of opportunity to take initiative.  It's always fun when you take the initiative.

It does ruffle my feathers.

How do you know no one took the initiative?

You knew something is going to happen. You spy out the estimate time of when and how and who. You make sure you tell everyone. You make sure PCs and NPCs who is in power to do something are aware. You help to make sure initiatives get rolling, RPTs happen in preparation do happen. You expect some feedback from NPC superiors. Nothing coming. You take another initiative, stumble blindly on. Oh wait. Result came back! But you already moved on to plan B and the answer is irrelevant. No problem. Carry on with the initiative. You can't be around for the RPT. So make sure your clannies and friends are aware. Shoot report to Imms in case they aren't around too so the NPC can be represented in the RPT.

There is only so much you can do without a total disregard for the virtual world and the npcs. For some, the RPT is fun. That is great.The RPT is a point of colossal disappointment to another side. May the next one be better.

But for the third side, the rp and plots which lead to it is very interesting and fun. The battle is lost. The war wages on.

[Nyr]

It is not the staff's responsibility to tell your clanned PC what to do or how to play except in the most general terms (not anymore at least).  Break documentation entirely?  We'll probably store your character, arrange to have them fired, etc (if it makes sense to do any of that).  The majority of player interaction with the world falls into a grey area not determined directly by staff.

You have access to documentation for your clan.  You have access to discussion boards for your clan.  You have access to e-mail with clan staff (if not a very recent response, you know what was stated previously).  As someone who has seen all of this, the virtual world is there to back up PC actions and react to them.  In the absence of PCs in a clan, we would certainly make the virtual world react--however, with PCs there, we depend on PCs to make the first move, show some initiative, and maybe some leadership in how their clan responds.  Us responding for you forces the situation without regard for PC responses.  We do our best to keep from deus ex'ing plots on a small OR large scale (we plan several outcomes in advance for most RPTs).  If in the odd case that you don't have direct response from your clan staff or you don't understand the IC response from clan staff (which happens at times), you still have your character that you are responsible for.

If you were a Kassigarh guard wishing up because there was a burglar in the Estate and you wanted to know what to do, you could look at the documentation or common sense to determine what to do.  Your very job function is to protect the Estate and nobility and their interests.  Are they being threatened?  Go kick some ass.  If you were a Borsail noble wishing up because you are trapped in your Estate with gith surrounding it and wanted to know what to do, you could probably go with the most basic of instincts:  survival.  You make the initiative to survive, and we'll help.  We won't throw you a rope before you try to do something.  If you died huddled in your Estate bedroom to a gith with a knife, waiting on staff to come rescue you or give you an out, well, them's the breaks.  (For the sake of argument, I'm applying current staff policy to the gith war situation.  There's more complexities to any situation, certainly, but I'm just making a general point here.)

That point: wishing up for staff to help you and tell you what to do is not your first option.  Our staff policy has changed on these matters; it would behoove everyone to look this over.  We are focusing on PLAYER LED and PLAYER CENTRIC plots.  

From the actual changes:

Now that all staff are in place and up to date with their clans and duties we will be moving on to the next change in the way that we staff.

Staff will no longer be animating the 'big boss' and senior NPCs of the clans for report ins and general catch ups. When a player needs information from the higher ranks of the house this will, in general, be given via email.

Staff instead will be concentrating on facilitating the stories that players are creating. The overall goal is that gameplay happens at a level that is accessible to players, allowing them to feel a very real part of the action.

Another goal with the change is to move the focus of Storytellers from the administrative side of running clans, to the story oriented side. With a Highlord in charge of each group we hope that much of the admin work can be relieved and with dedicated HL's for each group decisions can get sign off at the team level.

The overall aim of this is to see STs out there animating every day, because they –want- to, to see plots and stories that reflect what players are interested in and want to achieve and staff supporting what you all are doing.

FAQ (in advance):

Does this mean staff don't do clan animations anymore?

Not at all. What we want to do is move the focus on to the players, shift the gears down to your level. Instead of playing the big boss and directing the play we're there to add flavor and facilitate the players stories.

What about when players need IC reactions from the House, if we don't have 'seniors' does that mean no reaction?

This change does not mean that the House structure, ranks and goals go away. The npcs can still come out, if needed, what we don't want is staff tied up for 2 hours listening to a report that they read all about in email. This type of interaction, while often appreciated by staff and players, could be better replaced by more active animations – those boss npcs might still turn up to give you a promotion, bitch you out or just surprise you by having a drink at the bar.

How will players know what they can do, if we don't have the NPCs to tell them?

This is an area for us to work on. One thing that has been suggested is making up 'job descriptions', or guides, for the different types of sponsored or leader roles. For example your Merchant might be told that he has the right to:
- Hire crafters
- Hire an assistant
- Arrange for hunters to seek out specialist resources to make goods
- Hire the byn to assist in expeditions
- Work on trade partnerships with fellow merchants in other houses
- Work with enterprising independents to 'incorporate' their goods into the house lines
- Research new product lines

And so on. By giving you guys a better idea of what you have authority over we hope that you'll then have more confidence to do these (and other) things.

What will staff be animating then?

All kinds of things! Staff might turn up where you least expect it., playing those npcs that add to the stories players are telling, or just add the general ambience that Armageddon thrives on.

As an example:
GMH staff might each create/pick a lower level Kuraci npc. Maybe a soldier that rides along with the unit sometimes, or that skilled and aloof Outrider that turns up to show how awesome they can be. The gossipy crafter, or the whore who wanders through tavern might be favourite picks.

Noble house staff might make a fellow junior noble to sit and gossip with their pc compatriots (or plot against them). They might make an aide to Lady Fancypants who likes to feed their noble pieces of gossip from within the house or sits with all the other aides and gives them those little pointers they need to manipulate and bend society to their will.

If staff are only facilitating what the players do what happens to all their cool ideas?

The idea here is to move away from large, preplanned plots for clans towards plots that are based on what the players are doing or interested in. We already do a good deal of this, by freeing ourselves up from some of the 'overhead' of administrative animating for clans we're hoping to give staff more time to do these stories.

What this doesn't mean is that we never get to come up with plot ideas or stories, instead we take the ideas, or the impetus, from the players and work from there.

Does that mean there's no big plots, only small stories? I like the huge stuff!

While we want to focus our attentions on making the game more player driven as staff we still need to share a vision for the game. There will always be a need for oversight and direction at the macro level, what we want to make sure is that most of the action plays out at the micro level, where the players are, rather than up high where you are more observer than participant.

I still don't understand /I hate this
If this doesn't make sense to you there is a discussion topic in general discussions where I'm happy to address or clarify concerns.

Some of the emphasized points above are the points I wished to make, though the majority doesn't apply directly to the situation of this past RPT.  Before the staffing change, players DID take a lot of their cues from staff on what their characters should do in a clan.  That is not the case anymore.  You get set up, you have documentation, and you have a discussion board.  You can e-mail us, sure.  In this particular case, I would say that if you had nothing you could have referred to at all, you would have ample reason to be disappointed with the RPT.  That isn't the case, though.  At best, it would probably be a good idea for you to get together with your clan staff to discuss how exactly these staffing changes apply to certain clans and groups, because not all clans and groups are the same.

Your first option is to consider what your character would do.  You figure that out based on documentation, your character's history, previous interactions, posts on a clan discussion board, etc.  Maybe your character wants to run away.  Maybe your character wants to stand and fight.  Maybe your character has a serious problem with something going on.  If your reaction is to watch and wait, then watch and wait--but don't expect staff to force the issue if your PC is not being harmed.  We will (probably) not animate to force an issue between two PC groups that are seemingly opposed in interests.  We will wait for players to do something first.

I don't mean to come down on the naysayers of the RPT--I just want to explain to all players what we are expecting in major RPTs, minor RPTs, and all interaction with the game in the future.  If your complaint is that staff didn't prompt you to do something, your complaint is technically correct--but as a whole it is discounting the new staffing policy.  We aren't perfect, we could all do things better--but that includes players AND staff.  There may be a legitimate complaint, but by the nature of IC events, you can't report that on the GDB--so people like me (and like other players) can only see the gist of your complaint, not the entirety of it.  Please use e-mail to touch base with and communicate with your clan staff instead of using the GDB to point blame at them, however muted your protestations might be.  Heck, CC me on it; I've said as much before.  You might find that your clan staff has a different perspective on things, or that things DID happen that you did not see.  Perhaps there are future ramifications because of what did or did not happen.

[SmashedTregil]

edited: I've responded to Nyr. But then reread the "last" bolded part, and yes. This kinda thing really should be dealt with e-mails. Hopefully the people involved will have the initiative to send 'those' out atleast.

[Hot_Dancer]

I enjoyed this event and feel that even if I was more active in the game my PC wouldn't have had it any other way.

Definitely a "Good Riddance" moment.

Cheers,
HD

[Bogre]

I'm just curious as to why it wasn't more dangerous.

*grin*

[IntuitiveApathy]

That point: wishing up for staff to help you and tell you what to do is not your first option.  Our staff policy has changed on these matters; it would behoove everyone to look this over.  We are focusing on PLAYER LED and PLAYER CENTRIC plots.  

If your reaction is to watch and wait, then watch and wait--but don't expect staff to force the issue if your PC is not being harmed.  We will (probably) not animate to force an issue between two PC groups that are seemingly opposed in interests. We will wait for players to do something first.

I think the complaint wasn't necessarily that players were sitting around on RPT day, seeking direction from their staffers as to what to do next, or what direction to take. 

From my perspective and understanding, there certainly wasn't any lack of initiative from the players involved.  A lot of groundwork was done, staffers were e-mailed, and as much as possible was played out in-game, with plenty of lead time to allow things to shake out.  But I think the issue the 'nay-sayers' had was that there was seemingly little to no results seen from the efforts they put in.  So in essence when it came time for RPT day, it seemed like one side was left out to dry, because it appeared that there wasn't the same level of support provided by the staff for them.  Perhaps part of the reason was that many of the clans involved are smaller ones, and there were multiple clans involved, so maybe things got lost amongst one staff - player communication to another.  Maybe it's that these clans don't really have designated positions for player leaders, so that as underlings, talking to other underlings, there's another layer of staff red tape to go through to try and get something done through virtual leadership.  Other clans are fully virtual, so the only way to communicate with them is through the staff.

All I can say is that I myself e-mailed my staff, posted on my own clan board, did my best to arrange and play things out IC'ly, and from what I saw, I wasn't alone, even within my own clan; from what I can see, these are the very suggestions put forth for players looking to take the initiative in driving the new flavour of non-staff-led plots.

[BadBarney]

All I can say is, the entire event as experienced by me was well done! I was shaking so hard, I could hardly type, let alone read the scroll!

Needless to say, my character was hanging on to dear life as well. Wide eyed it was, and scared out of its mind. 

I saw plenty of opportunities for the event to unfold in many directions. PCs, things that likely were not PCs, and stuff I can't even try to quantify, all had their chances and took them. The day was won by the brave, who grabbed it up in their bloody hands, spitting and saying -this ere is mine!-

My kudos to staff and players alike.

[Nyr]

That point: wishing up for staff to help you and tell you what to do is not your first option.  Our staff policy has changed on these matters; it would behoove everyone to look this over.  We are focusing on PLAYER LED and PLAYER CENTRIC plots. 

If your reaction is to watch and wait, then watch and wait--but don't expect staff to force the issue if your PC is not being harmed.  We will (probably) not animate to force an issue between two PC groups that are seemingly opposed in interests. We will wait for players to do something first.

I think the complaint wasn't necessarily that players were sitting around on RPT day, seeking direction from their staffers as to what to do next, or what direction to take. 

From my perspective and understanding, there certainly wasn't any lack of initiative from the players involved.  A lot of groundwork was done, staffers were e-mailed, and as much as possible was played out in-game, with plenty of lead time to allow things to shake out.  But I think the issue the 'nay-sayers' had was that there was seemingly little to no results seen from the efforts they put in.  So in essence when it came time for RPT day, it seemed like one side was left out to dry, because it appeared that there wasn't the same level of support provided by the staff for them.  Perhaps part of the reason was that many of the clans involved are smaller ones, and there were multiple clans involved, so maybe things got lost amongst one staff - player communication to another.  Maybe it's that these clans don't really have designated positions for player leaders, so that as underlings, talking to other underlings, there's another layer of staff red tape to go through to try and get something done through virtual leadership.  Other clans are fully virtual, so the only way to communicate with them is through the staff.

All I can say is that I myself e-mailed my staff, posted on my own clan board, did my best to arrange and play things out IC'ly, and from what I saw, I wasn't alone, even within my own clan; from what I can see, these are the very suggestions put forth for players looking to take the initiative in driving the new flavour of non-staff-led plots.

I never said plans were not made, although plans, GDB discussions, documentation, and e-mails are GREAT!  They will help for the time when the shit hits the proverbial rotational device.

The majority of player interaction with the world falls into a grey area not determined directly by staff.

Initiative is in the hands of players; even in D&D, you roll for initiative, the DM doesn't do it for you.  Those on-the-spot decisions--those can't be made by staff.  They need to be made by players.  Now, if you have to communicate or interact with the fully virtual world, you need to wish up (almost goes without saying), especially during a major RPT.  We usually catch wishes, and we'll catch that before almost anything else.  It's possible we'll miss other stuff.  We're fallible.

Speaking of which, I did check logs specifically to make sure that no wishes were overlooked.  Otherwise I'd be a pretty big jerk for saying that initiative is in the hands of players while ignoring their cries for help via wish.

[BlazinDayz]

I think the staff did a -terrific- job handling this hrpt. Seems to me there were several ways things could have concluded, with consequences directly reflecting player initiative and actions. I think some people still have this 'staff are out to get me' mentality, and believe that rpts either end up with Plan A, or Plan B. Like Nyr said, you have to see past the black and white to fully understand and appreciate the grey area.

[Xagon]

My issue: I took initiative personally during the RPT. I didn't think to wish up, however, because I did not feel it was necessary. As such, my actions were all but forgotten, except to a select few.

On the flipside, my actions would have had little or no effect to the immediate outcome of the RPT.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I think some people still have this 'staff are out to get me' mentality, and believe that rpts either end up with Plan A, or Plan B.

I really don't think this is the case here and I want to say that I appreciate all the work the staff obviously did put into the RPT.

I've been involved in many RPT's in the past, and have had different experiences from different 'angles' with them - the vast majority of them positive.

But the fact that the various other complainants in this thread are players that are seemingly from different clans than the one that I play in should say something - a certain section of the playerbase (albeit likely a small portion) cut across a variety of players/clans was affected and from what I can see, the complaints are fairly legitimate.  Anyway, the whole point of airing those complaints is the hope that we can make improvements for the next time around.   I don't think people purposely set out to be wet towels.

I also want to say that while the actual RPT was happening, I felt much the same way Xagon did.   I didn't want to wish up to try to pursue anything -while the RPT was occurring- because I knew the staff was busy, that things were crazy.  That's what all the prior work was for - and I think that's why people were left with a bit of a bad taste in their mouths when nothing came of their preparation either leading up to or on the actual day of.

[Olgaris]

Feel free to wish up during an RPT to make sure we know that you're up to something in specific.

Other than that, please take any of these specific gripes to your specific immortals so that explanations can be had using specific examples and explanations that cannot be made on the GDB.

Maybe, just maybe, that "lack of support" felt was actually... IC?

[Kankfly]

I think the staff did a -terrific- job handling this hrpt. Seems to me there were several ways things could have concluded, with consequences directly reflecting player initiative and actions. I think some people still have this 'staff are out to get me' mentality, and believe that rpts either end up with Plan A, or Plan B. Like Nyr said, you have to see past the black and white to fully understand and appreciate the grey area.

That really isn't the case. But like Nyr said, things like that should be handled in emails. So I'm going to do just that.

[HammerofJericho]

Ah, the cold blade of deceit sliding oh-so-slowly in between your shoulder blades......*sniff*sniff*.....smell that? Smells like the Armageddon spirit we all love and hate.

[Rotten]

Personally, I think the staff places too much work on itself.  At the same time, I think they do it because the playerbase has a tendency to act like dullards.  It's a hard sell.

[Aaron Goulet]

I like the focus on player-driven plots with staff support, rather than staff-driven plots with player support.  That's one positive change I've noticed since I came back from my several-year hiatus.

[Synthesis]

Hey, look, IC information about the RPT. But not anymore.

[Decameron]

Also:  at the same time, it could be argued that the amount of support that was involved by one city-state actually vastly underestimates the sort of force it reasonably would be able to muster.  At least two Houses were pretty severely under-represented, from what I saw.

Lot of assumptions in a little sentence. Allow me to explain .. Find out IC. 

[X-D]

I agree with others that one side was indeed left out to dry staff side.

The virtual world IMO was ignored by staff on that side.

Also, Even if both sides would have had equal numbers of PCs (and it was closer then some might think) Every clan involved on the one side had the ability to bring along NPCs without staff help. NONE of the other clans have that ability.

On a side note of the matter of NPCs, I do not think NPCs should be allowed outside a clans area of control unless staff is animating. PC controlled NPCs are treated as cannon fodder, brainless zombies with very high skills. They do not flee, they do not turn traitor, they cannot be bribed, they do not get hungry or thirsty.

Hell, there are still many of the one side out there, standing in place, ignored because they do not matter.

If staff is indeed letting things be PC driven and decided then it is up to them to make sure it is PCs.

In this RPT, there was no less then 10 NPC mobs involved, at least three being unit types So are supposed to count as 10-25 more npcs.

So, 30+ mindless automatons without fear or feelings and expendable as an arrow.

And THAT is the REAL reason there was no fight. Because nobody is willing to throw away a PC verses a mob of NPCs. Which means it was OOC reasoning more then anything.

(edit)
Oh, and though I don't really like how the RPT was handled.

I DO like the end results....well, the results so far, so, Kudos to staff on that.

[Salt Merchant]

Is it any surprise that a city of 500,000 with thousands of trained soldiers could "bring more to the party"?

For people who speak of balance of NPCs, there easily could have been an entire legion there, realistically.

[X-D]

The tribal numbers, according to staff in the past outnumber both the city states combined. True, 95% of them are closed for play or virtual. And of course they do not all live in the area in question.

But I really REALLY doubt the leg work was done by the PCs planning the event to get permission from them, they were ignored by all sides but one.

But my arguement is not so much against the use of NPCs, but the way they are used, and the fact that they have no AI...hell, even certain gith have good enough scripts to run away. NPCs are NOT treated as living people when PCs control them, hell, it is rare when staff controls them.

I've personally watched staffers throw wave after wave after wave of "thinking" Beings at something. Even gith should be smart enough to go, "Huh, we just lost 200 friends, family, brothers, fathers and the enemy has taken light damage, lets run." But no.

Or groups of three or so halflings attack a group of ten bynners, come on now, halflings are supposed to be smart, I'm sure they can count.

Look at my sig, I have that because I've seen something like that exactly 1 time, and there it is. My PC was well known to the gith tribes, had many fun interactions, and the first and only staffer I've dealt with in nearly 20 years that brings NPCs to life in a realistic fashion.

[Salt Merchant]

The tribal numbers, according to staff in the past outnumber both the city states combined. True, 95% of them are closed for play or virtual. And of course they do not all live in the area in question.

Going off on a tangent, I don't see how this could be. The empty wastelands out there are pretty much that.. empty wastelands. Now and then one stumbles across a collection of tents with no agriculture. Hunting never supported large populations.

My major complaint:  I thought they fixed "unit" mobs attacking individual PCs.  However, reverse disarming an ENTIRE UNIT was pretty amusing.

Hahaha.. that was a good one. Brought to mind one of these modern martial arts flicks where the hero makes some physically impossible but utterly impressive move. I can picture that guy flying through the air, disarming each in turn as he passes.

[X-D]

I really should search out all the fully virtual tribes names, there are a lot.

But I know of 2 human tribes, one used to be playable, the docs state around 45k, At least one elf tribe has been said to be over 15k, closed for play as well. Another human tribe never open for play but recently active, staff claims is also massive, maybe the largest of them.

Last time I spoke with a staffer on the matter, I was told there was more then 30 tribes outside cities, and that is not counting several gith tribes, the halflings or the mantis.

[SmashedTregil]

The tribal numbers, according to staff in the past outnumber both the city states combined. True, 95% of them are closed for play or virtual. And of course they do not all live in the area in question.

But I really REALLY doubt the leg work was done by the PCs planning the event to get permission from them, they were ignored by all sides but one.

No, legwork was done. The reaction to the legwork was "Meh. It is your choice." From some, and "nothing" from others.


I myself have noo problems about how the HRPT was done. What I have a problem with is how "little" and by little I mean "zero" impact did the actions of the <other side> have on the virtual population BEFORE the HRPT. I mean ... people were meeting, gathering, trying to make plans. But it always ended up being ... what does the X (The strongest and most populous albeit virtual clan in the region) say? The answer was ... Uhhh, still waiting on them. What do your elders of your own clan say? "Uhh .. they say it is up to us." What do you mean it's up to us? Up to whom? "Blank stares as people look around"

10 PCs sit, twiddling their thumbs because they are generally of "equal" rank. There were no "sponsored roles" amongst the side, therefore leaders arise over long periods of time. And when there arent any, it is ... silly to expect the amount of support a "sponsored role hierarchy" type clan gets to be as effective for an "everyone are near same rank"  type of clan. My personal opinion is that the ball was "completely" dropped by the Imms of the <opposing> side. Not because they did not do what is generally done in such situations (allow the players to make their own and guide their own plots and reactions), but because they failed to realize that such a thing 'will not WORK' in the current situation, and failed to make some kind of effort to ... MAKE IT work somehow. Work with the playerbase to allow them to guide their plots, and at the same time not take over the plot themselves. There were certainly options to do it, hell ... simple positive encouragement and appearing to be receptive would probably done a lot of good. Instead of a Elder response "do what you like" with the final usefulness of "zero".

Dont get me wrong, forget Immortal support, in the end of things it was up to PCs and if it ment their deaths then ... so be it. But can you really 'blame' the person for failing to make the decision, when he/she sees HUNDREDS ahead of them, and like ... 10 behind him/her? With apperent apathy from ... the entire virtual population of the whole region?  As far as I can see, if the PCs without Immortal support decided to fight that day and ... WON (they did have a chance. Though it falls into the <disarming the whole unit> category in my opinion). Then you know what ... it would feel to me no different, then an assassin logging in at 5 am, backstabbing every single NPC soldier to templar to death, and by 8 am in the morning, taking up the residence in Tek's tower.

edited: Altered and removed some pieces to somewhat soften the article. The Imms dont really deserve "that" much heat, but perhaps ... some. I was somewhat annoyed when I wrote the original post, mainly due to people saying there was no legwork done, even though ... there was. 

[Cutthroat]

Maybe, just maybe, that "lack of support" felt was actually... IC?

Just saying.

And if you don't agree, and think you were left out to dry, then privately ask the staff why that is, instead of airing out your complaints in a forum where the staff cannot directly respond.

I DO like the end results....well, the results so far, so, Kudos to staff on that.

Agreed. Hopefully the people who were disappointed by the RPT will find ICly reacting to the end results fun.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I thought they fixed "unit" mobs attacking individual PCs.  However, reverse disarming an ENTIRE UNIT was pretty amusing.

Not to derail... but all I can think of is Neo and the huge amount of Agent Smiths. I now wish, even harder, I could have seen some of the action.

[Nyr]

Alright, I'm going to lock the thread.  For those of you that liked the RPT, awesome.  For those of you that found problems with it, you should mention it to your clan staff.  (Like I said.)  There comes a time to drop the issue.  That time comes when you continue to bring up the same issue after you've been asked to bring it up with your staff.

I don't like to shut things down to get the last word or anything--I just don't think any progress is being made here, and things are drifting more and more into exact IC points.  I'll reiterate some points and make a few new ones based on recent posts.

1.  The city states each have upwards of 400,000 people.  There are not that many(almost a million?  really?) tribals out there.
2.  There were not that many NPCs at all involved in that event.  Complaining about vast numbers (hundreds?  bleh)  is incorrect and unrelated to this event; even if it were accurate, small forces can always trump larger forces with better planning, tactics, and familiarity the surroundings.  How many times have you heard of X rogue magicker, sorcerer, etc. eluding city-states all by themselves?  One PC causing all sorts of trouble?  That happens.
3.  Speculating on these IC events on the GDB is stupid.  Armchair quarterbacking an RPT after the fact is something you can do on your own time IC; don't do it on the GDB.  You (not any of you specifically, but you collectively) should know better.
4.  We have changed staff policy this year, but even before this year, we did our best to have players be the determining factors in as much as possible (see:  Copper War, Gith War, Mantis attacks, etc.).
5.  Finally, and most importantly, if you are going to do something major or want assistance or whatever, you should wish up.  As much as it might be unbelievable to you that the virtual world was not animated to your satisfaction, it is equally unbelievable to us that an entire swath of players did not wish up once about this--yet both of these happened (per logs), and one could easily have been the direct cause of the other.

One more point about "not being a sponsored leader" and surrounded by folks of "equal rank."  Sometimes leaders don't arise over long periods of time.  Sometimes they arise when someone decides "Okay, here's what we are going to do."  (Based on documentation, previous discussions, etc.  Hell, based on anything.  Leaders sometimes make shitty decisions, but at least they act like leaders.)   We'll be glad to reward player initiative in that case.  I don't care what clan you are in, initiative to do something productive on the spot that makes sense for your clan will get rewarded.  

Everyone had staff support for this.  Some people chose to utilize it in advance.  Some had to utilize some on the spot.  Some didn't let us know they wanted it or needed it.  Use this experience as motivation to do things differently and communicate with your staff on how to improve all of that communication in the future--don't get bent out of shape about it on the GDB.

Thanks.