I see your gripe and why you put it that way. People get defensive of their game/preferences. I totally agree with Tlaloc on switching where you are each time. I do that. Even with that said, I DO have my preference for rp'ng a pc at but not to the point that I would bash anyone.

My previous post was a 'here's what you can try doing or others should try doing' not a put down and I am sorry if it came across that way.  

Perhaps people just assuming it's 'Tuluk bashing' because of the way people post on it negatively. *shrugs*  But again, not every half-elf/degenerate hangs in the Sanctuary.  

Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"Clearly they aren't getting the message with subtle methods, espicially when they keep feeding 'rinth beggar after 'rinth beggar.

I have to agree, this is indeed the real problem with Tuluk.

There is, of course, conflict in Tuluk. I've seen it, have in some cases been in the heart of the conflict, have even plotted successful assassination. However, you see the fine aide to some noble listening sympathetically to the woes of your Southern half-breed at the bar and giving him charity. You see humans with status in society taking the side of the outcast half-breed or elf that they know a little over the respectable human who they do not. Heaven forbid that someone should be racist against dwarves or half-giants, too!

There is conflict in Tuluk. Sometimes the conflict is all one could wish for; finagling and double-dealing ending in tragedy, secret magickers sold out and spies eliminated. Sometimes though it rises out of unrealistic circumstances, when a human, keen to defend his dwarven buddy, pulls strings within his House to make trouble for the wicked bigot who shows public disdain for dwarves, or, having friendly overtures rebuffed by a surly elf, moves to make that elf's life difficult. Conflict of that nature does not make a harsh world, merely a cliquey one.

I find Rindan's point about subtlety very valid. Acting open and friendly to everyone but having a secret agenda is not subtlety. If you're a half-breed or lowlife of other sorts, it's quite possible you'll seek to curry favour with those of higher social rank, not at all unrealistic. However, those who have status, who have position, who are employed in noble service or by a Merchant House, ought to snub their inferiors if they become overly familiar. Subtly snub them, yes, but snub them nonetheless, and if subtle snubs don't work then there is a need for greater bluntness.

It would help tremendously, I feel, if people spread out more, didn't just hang round the Sanctuary. In 'Nak the taverns provide approximate social classes, from noble down to 'Rinther, so people are encouraged to stick to their own social grouping and the dirty whore who wanders into the Barrel or the silk-clad merchant who wanders into the Folley is soon made to feel unwelcome. But in Tuluk the Sanctuary seems to welcome everyone. Yes, it certainly promotes interaction - people who'd never normally interact because of class differences get a chance to RP with one another. But is that a good thing?

Quirk

So wait...the 'rinth moved up to Tuluk?

Oh yeah it did.

On the subject of Tuluk in general and the Sanctuary in particular, I haven't played in Tuluk in a while.  But I will next character, thus I'll find out which of you are right and which of you are bunny-hugging idjits.

I think because of the difference in history for Tuluki both nobles and commoners, the amount of open racism would be less so than Allanak.

I think the problem is trying to find a norm for Tuluk other than just copying Allanak and everyone openly hating everyone else.
After all, how many of those that helped the nobles in the war, were of races other than human...I'm sure many of them were.

I've had my pc in 'nak for a little while now and I'm seeing just as many openly "nice" chars as I've seen up north.

I think humans going out of their way to help non-humans is unrealistic (depending on the char, but in general) unless, especially in Tuluk, you need to take a moment and think...are they really doing it to help them, or are they -getting- something out of it?

I know lots of those characters are helping someone out because they intend to gain something for themselves out of it, whether it be an employee, information, or they see a potential for them to be used later on to further their own needs.

Knowledge is power and the more people you know, the more chance to aquire knowledge you might not otherwise have.

I agree with the original post about the different taverns should be frequented by the appropriate type of people.

Let's keep one thing in mind in all these discussions about Tuluk.

Tuluk has only been free for 27 IC years.

That's one generation or possibly two short lived generations.

There will still be a "lot" of people in Tuluk who were there when Allanak was occupying.

The events of the occupation would still be part of the 'living memory' of Tuluki citizens.

Anyway, the real point of this reminder - Sanctuary was built before the occupation of Tuluk.  Sanctuary served as a meeting place for all people of the northlands.  This memory would not fade in 27 years although it may slowly change over time.  As such, I do not feel it is inappropriate for hunters, traders, travellers, etc etc would be using it.  To the imms who built the Sanctuary originally - well done!  I've always liked it and enjoyed it immensely.

Tuluk should, and is, going through growing pains.  A new generation will be coming up and replacing the old.  These younger ones may not take heed of the 'dire warnings' of their elders about the 'brutality' of Allanak's occupation.  

Anyway, it's food for thought.  Tuluk isn't that old.  It doesn't necessarily have its own identity figured out.  The laws are still new and the 'traditions' are sparkling.  The 'establishment' is only 27 years old.

In the liberation a lot of the old leaders of Tuluk died.  This leads to a fresh outlook that could potentially experience serious mistakes.  There will still be nobles in the Houses who remember that they were protected by Woodsman Joe.  They would still remember playing kruth to pass the night as an Allanaki patrol kept them safe (err.. oppressed).  I imagine some of the old timers might even remember fondly when Allanak protected them... but I may be crazy

Tales of the valour of rebels could still be large - after all, some of the streets are named after the major rebels.  Of course, it may be the opposite now as the youth mature and think that Tuluk can 'make it on its own' and that they are so blind in the 'strength of Tuluk' that 'threw out the Allanaki' soldiers.  I don't know - it's for the city to develop both ICly and OOCly.  

But once again please, when discussing Tuluk, remember how young it is.  I think the city is beautiful and the descs are awesome.  I like its layout and the design.  From what I've seen of the imms currently handling Tuluk I've been incredibly impressed.  Let Tuluk grow and create its own history but remember that it is still young.

Quote from: "Rindan"

Yes yes... Tuluk is subtle and all that annoying as hell jazz.

I'm a jazz major in canada.  I was just wondering, what the fuck is hell jazz??

Quote from: "Tlaloc"1) Though you guys may be joking around, it seems like you're becomming increasingly strictly northern/strictly southern players. This isn't how you should be playing, at all. Armageddon is Zalanthas as a whole. Its highly recommended that, when you die, you play in a different region of the game - and try to play there for a signifigant amount of time, so that your next Character isn't influenced/recognizable/distracted by the Old PC's he or she interacted with.

Well, I think the way we should be playing is the way that entertains us. If we don't enjoy the 'rinth or Red Storm or even Tuluk, then we shouldn't feel like we have to play there.  I realize this wasn't stated as a commandment from on high, but rather a "general good idea" but, to be frank, I'm not sure that it's realistic.  At least, it seems to be contrary to what a lot of people do.

My feelings about Tuluk are really mixed.  I love the city itself--the unique flavors of the different quarters, the artistic flair, the taverns, the shops, the way the templarate runs.  But my reaction to the PC's playing there, like that of so many others, is merely lukewarm.  Everybody's just too nice, and clean, and cultured. I know a lot of you are going to stop reading right there because I'm obviously (to you) one of those deluded people who think you're all bunny lovers. It's not that, really.

I think the original point of this thread is valid: people should spread out more amongst other taverns.  I don't think, given the history of Tuluk, that the undersirables would be forcibly removed or forbidden entry from the Sanc (as they might from the Trader's Inn) but rather, that they would feel not entirely at ease there.  They would stop in occasionally, but when they really wanted to relax they'd go elsewhere.  The Sanc is (I believe) the only tavern a Tuluki noble is allowed in propriety to visit.  In a way, that makes it the nobles' tavern. Certainly a commoner would feel free to drop in, and perhaps even approach a noble (in an acceptable manner) if they wished to speak with the noble regarding patronage or business, but they would take pains to be at least neat and presentable.  In other words, a halfbreed hunter very well might visit the Sanc from time to time, but not covered in sweat, sand, blood, or grime.  Nor would there be a barstool with the exact imprint of their behind imprinted permanently on it, if you get my point.

Maybe there aren't enough unlikeable people in Tuluk?  Or maybe the hatred is actually too subtle? I'm not really sure what the overall solution is, here.  But I do think that the original point is valid, that things need to spread out from the Sanc.

Or maybe the real unlikeables dont show their faces in Sanctuary all that much so arent known to be about.

*wink*

My biggest complaint about Tuluk is from a previous south/elf-hating PC I played who was regularly chastised or involved in fights with fellow northerners (at least in accent) who seemed to want to set me on the right path of tolerance and understanding.

Yeah, I know, they were being subtle.

I think a city-state recovering from a brutal occupation would save subtlety for each other and bring out the pitch-fork wielding mobs for southerners.

That's my beef.  I just don't get the reserved hate for a people who killed and/or raped your family before you.

Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"
As for Tlaloc's buinny-hugging point, I also agree with that. There are F-mes and fluffy folk in Allanak as well. The fact is the bunny-huggers are PLAYERS, not CHARACTERS. Tulukis aren't bunny-huggers by default, it just so happens that a lot of bunny-hugging players are in Tuluk now. I don't see what's wrong with telling people that bunny-hugging is not okay...

This paragraph stuck in my head, and I thought I would respond.  

You said that bunny-huggers are players, not characters, and there are a lot of bunny-hugging players in Tuluk now.  Are you suggesting those players play the same personality most of the time?   And how would you know, unless you know who is playing whom?  Or, maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by bunny-hugging player.    It seems like you're assuming that a lot of people in Tuluk (a) play the same type over and over and (b) are somehow playing wrong (since you say that it's "not okay" to be a bunny-hugging player).

Quote
Clearly they aren't getting the message with subtle methods, espicially when they keep feeding 'rinth beggar after 'rinth beggar.

Or perhaps they got the message and simply disagree that something is wrong with they way they are playing?


I'm not saying there's no room for criticism, but it seemed a bit presumptous to suggest there are a lot of bunny-hugging players (if I understand what you mean by that) in Tuluk.   Or, even if there are, to expect them to change because some people think it should be RPed differently.

I agree with the idea that some of this needs to be fixed IC. Nobles and templars need to start sneering at the shady elf smoking spice in the corner of the Sanctuary, eyeing the purse of Lady Fancypants. Players need to enforce the social roles in these bars...and a bit of a cleanup of the Sanctuary would indeed help get the point across. I know as an elf, I'm seldom even glared at, let alone told to leave, when I sit my elven ass down on that plush, leather couch..just next to Lord Tightass's table. From the last time I played in Allanak...elves were nearly lynched when they walked into Trader's... Get rid of the ale and cheaper drinks there too...or jack the price up so high hunters and the like will go elsehwere...course, the problem with that is I really don't see many of the tavern sitters actually BUY anything while they sit there all night. I, like many others, go where the other PC's are. Chase some of the PC's out, and I'll follow. Of course, this is all assuming the Sanctuary is really SUPPOSED to be a classy place.
There really does need to be more racial/social class tension in the north, ESPECIALLY when it comes to southerners...I'll be happy the day I see a known southerner being assaulted with rotten fruit or spit at as they walk down the road...I mean..it's only been 27 years people! In all my lingering about the Sanctuary, I've had exactly ONE person toss a little rp my way about being an elf..and I loved every second of it. Bunny-huggers? One of my characters would spit at an elf any time he saw one, and refused to even set foot in the tribal market. Let's see some more of that, people! Don't be afraid to start some shit...my character lives for it with you stupid roundears!  :twisted:

Hmm.  Alright.  I'll make a non-bunny-hugging Tuluki.  Just you wait!

JollyGreenGiant, I think I speak for everyone when I say... Huh?

Yeah...huh.

I think what he was getting at here is we should all stop wearing tight hats.

Quote from: "Dirr"I think what he was getting at here is we should all stop wearing tight hats.

"Tight hats" eh?  Is that what they're calling them these days?

Alright, well, I thought it was funny.  And a bit on topic.  Maybe.

I've seen many disgusting things go on in Sanctuary that no PCs seem to do anything about.  I am hoping that the IMMs will help out a little with this one, as i have seen the bartender in Sanctuary yell at a PC who started carving up a piece of wood at the bar, and tell the PC to stop dirtying up the place.  I think the bartender REALLY should have done something about the PC who slapped a bunch of some creature's innards on the bar and started crafting them.  IMO, the bartender should not have let that happen.  Yet it did, because no one said anything to the PC about it.  That type of thing should NOT happen in the most upscale tavern in town that is frequented by nobility and wealthy commoners!

From the Tuluki roleplay doc:

Quote
However, due to the long period of Southern occupation in which the nobles faced obscurity or death, the relationship between the nobility and the common citizen has developed a much more amicable bond. It is not unheard of, nor is it frowned upon, for a noble to be seen in a tavern (though the selection of taverns are usually chosen to avoid the seedier elements) enjoying the company of the many commoners that inhabit such pubs.

I write this to remind the northerners that Tuluki nobles and northern commoners can be chums.  They can drink together, they can hang out, they can laugh together.  Tuluki nobles are not restricted to Sanctuary unless this is something that has changed since the document was written.  What I'm seeing is a revision of Allanaki nobility in the guise of the Chosen.  Let's remind ourselves that Tuluki nobles hid with the commoners and depended upon them.  That type of relationship just doesn't go away or turn into a "I'm a noble - you can't touch me" relationship.  

The only true 'taboo' that I see in the documentation is a sexual relationship between a noble and a commoner (a stark difference from Allanak where such things happen without a batt of the eye).

There is a caste system in Tuluk but the relations between commoner and noble is, according to the doc, amicable.  

The other thing is that while Tuluk is 'subtle' (what the hell does that really mean?) it doesn't mean everyone should be friends or appear to be friends.  Or maybe it does.  Could someone explain what "subtle" means in Tuluk?

I posted this elsewhere once, but in answer to "what is subtle", I get the impression that it is by way of comparison.  Poison in wine or a knife in the dark is more subtle than a broadsword to the face.  Insults that could also pass for compliments are more subtle than a string of profanity.  Making someone quietly disappear with no one the wiser is more subtle than shipping them off to get publicly slaughtered by a mul in the arena.

I would expect that nobles have a better grasp of subtlety than commoners, but I'd also expect that most commoners would try to imitate their "betters" to whatever extent they could.

I think that's a good description of it.  I've heard people mention that their Tuluki characters were corrected in some fashion for openly hating southerners or elves.  I think Tuluki culture favors things done in an artful and elegant and yes, subtle, way.  That's true for killing and stealing, and I imagine it is also true for insults and such.  So it seems reasonable that while the anti-southern or anti-elven sentiments themselves are not frowned upon, displaying them in a crude and artless way is.

Blunt:

With a surly scowl, the pink-haired merchant tells the skinny half-elf,
   "Get out of here, you fekking half-breed, this isn't a place for the likes of you."

Subtle:

The pink-haired merchant glances over at the skinny half-elf.

His voice carrying clearly across the tavern, the pink-haired merchant tells the foppish bard,
  "I heard Salarr fired another half-breed last week. It beats me why they take them on in the first place."

Not quite right:

Smiling pleasantly, the pink-haired merchant asks the skinny half-elf,
  "Hi there, I'm Bert. What's your name, and are you looking for a job?"

Quirk