My #1 Gripe About Tuluk...

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Hi. Glad you could come. I'm sure you've all heard me threaten to turn Tuluk into a giant smoking crater at one point or another, and I thought I'd like to share some of the logic behind my genocidal rage.

The main thing I find spine-tinglingly, mind-numbingly, hair-pullingly annoying about Tuluk is all the gritty, one-eyed, halfbreed hunters sitting around in the Sanctuary.

Tuluk has other taverns, people! Broaden your frickin' horizons! Look at the room description, if you haven't yet. Heck, just look at the price for a single drink there. The place is obviously meant for the upper crust. Sure, I could see even the grimiest of hunters going in there and buying a bottle of wine on a special occasion, but for the most part, I think they'd frequent a different type of tavern for their usual shot of whiskey. I'd like to see the playerbase disperse a bit when it comes to their ale-swilling.

Tuluk has many fine taverns, many of which seem accomadating to a rough-and-tumble outdoorsman. But apparently the hunters would rather sip their fruity whines and swap anecdotes with Templars than be surrounded by their own (virtual) kind. From what I've seen, the poor population in the Sanctuary is large enough for it to be able to break off and occupy another tavern. Likewise, the richer PC population is large enough support the Sanctuary even after all the riff-raff leaves.

It sucks having to wrack my brain for an IC reason for my grimy, dirt-poor commoner character to enter the swankiest tavern in the Known World. But the fact is I have to if I want to interact with other PCs (we all get sick of solo RP after awhile). I feel like a twink every time I enter the Sanctuary with my current character (my character's IC actions are being influenced by the number of active PCs in other taverns, which is an OOC concept), but I really don't have a choice.

So, please, gritty, ugly, miserable people of Tuluk, please join me in the Firestorm's Flame or the Tembo's Tooth, places where we can drink, vomit, cuss, fart and boast without worrying about offending Chosen Lady Prissypuss or Lord Templar Stickinbutt. I mean, honestly, you wouldn't -believe- some of the shady character's I've caught sipping ocotillo wine. Sheesh. Pretty refined for Northern barbarians. But now I'm rambling...

To sum it up, I'll say this: LEAVE THE SANCTUARY! You. Yes, you. I am talking to you. Release your kung-fu grip on the wineglass and start playing realistically.

[mansa]

Firestorm's Pub...
the drink is called Firestorm's Flame.

The tavern in the merchant's quarter of New Tuluk -> Firestorm's Pub

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Oops. Duly noted, mansa.

[Anonymous]

Why do I go to a tavern?  To interact with PCs or to take a break.  If its the former, I'll go where I think the most people are.  If its the latter I'll go to the closest.

I don't feel like a twink sitting in the sanctuary with my one-eyed half-breed gritty sumbitch.  Nothing you can say will make me feel like a twink for maximizing my potential for RP when I'm seeking it out or change my ways.

[Rindan]

I agree, but I think it is up to PCs in positions of power to enforce this.  If a filthy half-breed is able to throw his smelly ass down on a nice padded couch and no one says no, why wouldn't he?  This doesn't happen in the Traders because the population of that tavern took it upon themselves to set things right.  As long as Chosen Lord Inbreed allows for this sort of stuff to happen, it will keep happening.  In the same way I wouldn't expect a raiding group to tone it down because they are doing too well and no one is bothering to deal with them, I don't think that the slime that wanders into the Sanctuary should be expected to tone it down until people make them.

Yes yes... Tuluk is subtle and all that annoying as hell jazz.  However, if someone, or a lot of someones in this case, are blatantly ignoring social edict, then clearly your subtle attempts to get them to do the contrary are utterly failing.  You can keep the subtleness up and continue to have hordes of flea ridden hunter half-breeds, elves, and mercenaries sit their filthy asses down on your couch, or you can do something about it.  Personally, I think it is a great opportunity for class and racial role play.  It just takes a little guts to actually get the nerve to act.  Hell, you can even do it 'subtly' if you want.  Pay the bar maid to spill a drink on a half-breed if that gets your subtle rocks off.  

I personally prefer the Kuraci bar as an alternative to the Sanc.  It is high enough class where anyone could step in and not be totally revolted, but low enough class where a cloaked elf is not going to draw any extra eyes.  It is sort of like the Bards Barrel in Allanak with a slightly slimier feel.  It is a happy middle ground.  I know that months ago it actually had a steady population, but what it is now I have no clue.

Whatever the case, people need to take this into their own hands.  Until they do, don't be surprised when a half-breed still covered in the blood of his last kill throws his ass down in the stool next to you.

[Callisto]

While I agree Tuluk needs to suffer complete annihilation, I don't think there is anything wrong with people hanging out where the PC population is, since I know I'd rather suffer a minor hit to realism if it scores me interaction I wouldn't otherwise have.

Just play in Allanak where people have the spine to put your dirty bastard commoner in his place, and leave the Tuluki barbarians to do their subtle bunny-hugging behind the scenes, or whatever this weeks excuse is to cover up the fact they're about as harsh as a glass of cool iced tea on a warm summers day.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

Tuluk is a maze of long streets that can easily put your patience to the test.

The Sanctuary is the closest tavern to both a place to stable your mount, and to the gates themselves. You're definately going to see all the hunters hanging out there, for the sake of convenience.

The two other popular taverns in Tuluk seem to be in remote places that don't offer the same advantage. If you had the Bard's Barrel located where the Whiran temple is in Allanak, you'd probably see far more shady characters hanging around. Location is a very important factor to consider, and as it is, the Sanctuary has all the makings of a hunter's paradise.

The Gaj, The Trader's Inn, and the Bard's Barrel are all very close to each other when looking at Allanak. They are all in the "center" of Allanak. The layout is very convenient and makes all of the taverns a potential choice based on location. Tuluk does not share the same design. It's filled with a great many dead ends, impossibly long streets, and taverns that are isolated from each other. The Sanctuary seems to be the most centralized of taverns, and so you can expect a lot of people to be there for that one reason alone, regardless of any other reason.

[the traveller]

The Sanctuary is the closest tavern to both a place to stable your mount, and to the gates themselves. You're definately going to see all the hunters hanging out there, for the sake of convenience.

<snip>

The Sanctuary seems to be the most centralized of taverns, and so you can expect a lot of people to be there for that one reason alone, regardless of any other reason.

Agreed. I have been playing a hunter type in the north for the last several months, and almost never visit the Tooth. It is inconvenient for me OOC and for my character IC. Stabling facilities nearby (the Tooth) could rectify this perhaps.

[Bestatte]

Either myself or the bitch-queen CindyLou mentioned the idea of stables in another thread.

There's a tavern pretty much dedicated to the tribal folks, and mostly elven tribes, in the tribal market. It's a pretty damned neat place and has its own firepit where people can cook food away from the sandstorms. It even has the northern rumor board there!

But there's no stables. Not like elves would ride kanks, but hey - if I was an elf who stole a kank, would I want to put my kank next door to a place where all the soldiers hang out? Hell no!

The Tooth is awesome, and not all -that- far from the gates or the stables. But if I'm coming up from the two gates on the south side of the city, I'm not gonna trudge all the way up to the Sanctuary area to stable my mount, then trudge all the way back to the Tooth. If there was a stable halfway between the two south ones - or a small one at each..I'd probably hang out at the Tooth a lot more.

The Firestorm Pub is a neat place too. Except I wanna kill the bard - he needs to learn a new melody, that one's driving me nuts. Plus if you look at the description (which I did for the first time just 2 weeks ago - doh!) the place has been almost completely burnt to a crisp.

Neat to look at, awesome food, even better drink, but I don't want char-marks on my nice new white sandcloth sleeves. Maybe Kadius should clean it up just a bit. And maybe Kadius should start hanging out in their own bar and summon customers to meet them there instead of the Sanc. AFTER the bar's been cleaned, that is.

Then there's that awesome teahouse. I can't say enough good things about it. I mean c'mon - COOKIES people! But no gossip board, and it's all the way out in east bumfuck.  It's in close proximity to certain places where people who would NOT be seen in the teahouse dwell.

Location location location, folks. That's what real estate is all about.

Add a couple more stables - to the south and to the east, and you'll see a little more disbersement.

[Ayashah]

Its quite easy to populate another tavern if the right people encourage it. I played a merchant one time and after making sure to be noted and known about Sanctuary for about a RL month, and very vocal about meeting me at a certain tavern to do business/going on about the things one could find there, I moved my pc's butt down there.

So, all you merchants, pick a tavern of your choice and stick in it. YES, you will be bored at first. Find things to occupy yourself. BUT when you are regularly in that tavern the pcs come to you. The place starts to pick up and become moving.


1) Make yourseld known in town.

2) Make it known in the clan that you are trying to get this place built up as a House gathering place and request that the other pcs in the clan meet there for drinks, relaxation.

3) Sit in the well established pc gathering place for part of the IC day.

4) Wave goodbye to whomever you were talking to or make it a point to say where you are going.

5) Go sit, no matter how bored you are, in the tavern you have dedicated as your place of dealing.

6) Bring crafting things that would be reasonable to work on or a deck of cards to amuse yourself with. Rp out cleaning up after doing your rp work.

7) Throw events to draw the players there. A party. A card game with prizes. An auction.

Most importantly, set a good routine that people can figure out when to look for your pc there to do business.

9) Patience. It might take a bit in RL to get things going but you can and will do it.

10) Know that once you establish this routine, you need to keep it up or have an underling keep it up or everyone will drift back to the Sanctuary.


Those of you complaining that everyone sits in the Sanctuary (which is a reverse complaint about why nobles come to the Gaj/Barrel in Allanak) can also do the same. IF you have IC friends/people you need to meet with, insist they meet you at <insert name> tavern. When people do a run by and see no one in a tavern and they are starving for interaction with others they will go to the place they know they can get it. Work towards giving other options for people to go to.

Its hard work but if you really are upset that you see filthy breeds sitting about Sanctuary regularly, then work IC to change it. My character wasnt a filthy breed and granted she had a House backing her but it wasnt easy getting routines to change. Do you have the patience and grit to make it happen?

[Bestatte]

Ayasha's ideas are excellent! I'll also remind y'all that the tribal market has a tavern with a grill in one of the rooms. Though it's technically IC info, no one's gonna find out IC if no one knows that it's something they should even be looking for.

I'd hate to see it unused simply because it doesn't occur to anyone to look, so there's the "answer" to an IC question.

In bad weather, especially whirling sandstorms at night, it makes very little sense to cook meat in the open pit in the regular market. You'll just end up with sand all over your stuffed ginka fruit or travel cakes, or worse - all that flour will blow away. Code-wise I don't think it makes any difference (though maybe it should?) but RPwise it just makes sense to seek your cooking facilities indoors.

What a great place for hunters to gather, especially unclanned hunters, or hunters from tribal clans. The menu is sparse, but you're cooking most of your food anyway so that shouldn't matter.

One thing that does need to be implemented there - idea for the staff:

A counter in front of the grills for people to sit at and their cooking, lay out their ingredients and stuff. And maybe a mess-hall style table so people can enjoy the fruits of their labor together.

[Lazloth]

I'd like to go on record stating that the recent Tuluk-bashing stance is getting really fucking grating.  A lot of effort has gone into reopening the city-state to be a place with a different feel from Allanak and I am of the opinion it's been successful.  With all of my recent northern characters, I have enjoyed virtually every minute residing within Tuluk.

If you have an issue with tavern hoppers or anything in-game, treat it in-game and quit bitching on the public forums.  There are some good suggestions within this thread, and there are five publically-known and accessible gathering spots in the city.  Five.  There are players, I will wager, who refuse to frequent the Sanctuary for whatever reason, and conduct their public social intercourse in other locales.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Lazloth wrote:

There are players, I will wager, who refuse to frequent the Sanctuary for whatever reason, and conduct their public social intercourse in other locales.

Yeah Lazloth, I'm one of them. Before everyone starts telling me to 'practice what I preach', I'll let you know I'm already attempting to change things. I'm lonely, however, sitting in a tavern that is completely empty of PCs a good 80% of the time I'm there. So I thought I'd come on here and maybe encourage some other people to leave the Sanctuary every once in a while.

The way I did that was by coming on here and throwing a temper tantrum like a little he-bitch. Hey, I never claimed to be a great orator or negotiator, but I got the message out, didn't I?

[Anonymous]

What I find annoying about the Tuluk bashing is the choice of wording used.  If everyone and their brother truly dislikes Tuluk, I see no problem with discussing it here, however, the constant jokes about levelling the city begin to approach obsurdity, as far as I'm concerned.  Humor doesn't work on the internet well, which is why it's best to keep it out of this forum.  Rather than the usual "Hah hah hah, ho, ho, ho, let's blow Tuluk up because it sucks, no really!" I'd rather see a mature argument placed before me (without it being followed by some snide remark made to look "cute").

Tuluk sucks, you say?  OK, tell me why and maybe if enough people agree a change will be implemented -- though don't hold your breath.

I'm open to discussing the flaws of Tuluk -- I too have my share of opinions on the subject -- but do it in a professional manner.

[LoD]

I think what some people may be forgetting is the local history.  The northlands -are- different from the southlands, with specific reference to the interaction between nobles/templars and commoners.

Before the northlands was rebuilt with new and exciting alternatives to the large tavern, it served as a one-stop shop for most of the northland's people banding together for a common cause.  Hunters, soldiers, trackers, nobility, templarate, and common street folk gathered in what was considered their rightful place to be.  Class dinstinction was a petty thing to point out when your city wasn't much more than a few piles of lumber and working slaves.  You have bigger problems than if a dirty half-elf is soiling the nice linens of the couch.

I believe that many of its patrons feel somewhat of a patriotic right to frequent the Sanctuary despite the class separation, for now.  That may change as the city progresses and grows, but it seems that many players can't seem to understand that the north is in a stage of development.  It hasn't found its true identity yet.  It is a relative child.  People are all looking for the finished product, complete with political intrigue, fleshed out regions, interesting and rich atmospheres, and purposeful building when most of the north is pretty damned pleased just to have finished building some roads.

The north is in a stage of change, and as long as it is - I believe you will find many exceptions to the atmosphere, level of sophisticated interaction, and beliefs of the northland people.  You will certainly be seeing changes to the northern way of life, construction and visuals as the years progress and everyone begins to slowly sift back into a fully functioning society NOT on the brink of war, starvation, or poverty.

Class distinction was lessened as nobility, templarate, and common folk had to go into hiding and war against a common enemy.

A sense of bonding and brotherhood runs through the veins of the northland, often crossing otherwise broad gaps between professions and levels of income, creating a common ground with which to build relationships.

Homes, shops, and barracks are just starting to be rebuilt in full.  Roads are just starting to be completed.  What you have is a skeletal framework of a city that is managing on the bare essentials of commerce.

Jobs are many, a sense of direction is present, and the bulk of the northlands still feels that 'common cause' to rebuild, to survive, and to stand strong against its oppressors.  This -lessens- (but does not eliminate) political strife, inner-city tension, and class distinction.

Once the city has a chance to come into its own, and finally lower its defenses enough to pay attention to itself - you will begin to see all of the things you're complaining about the north lacking.

LoD

[Cuttlefish]

Possible solution - Have a mini-RPT in the Sanctuary.  Have a hellacious barfight that ends in burning down the place.  Keep it closed for about two or three RL months while it's rebuilt.  The players will disperse to various other taverns, breaking the habit of always going to just the Sanctuary.

Another option might be to do the same thing to one of the existing taverns that is too far away from the center of town and rebuild it close to the center.

[Tlaloc]

Personally, I'll have to agree that I've been thinking the recent Tuluk/Allanak-bashing has been a bit grating, myself. I find it grating for the following reasons:

1) Though you guys may be joking around, it seems like you're becomming increasingly strictly northern/strictly southern players. This isn't how you should be playing, at all. Armageddon is Zalanthas as a whole. Its highly recommended that, when you die, you play in a different region of the game - and try to play there for a signifigant amount of time, so that your next Character isn't influenced/recognizable/distracted by the Old PC's he or she interacted with.

2) I see arguments about Bunny-hugging to be rather bland. Bunny-hugging is a problem that purveys across the Known World, and I've run into quite alot of it in Allanak. I'm of the opinion that the world needs less Bunny-Hugging in genneral as a whole, and I personally lay the brunt of the responsibility on you, the players. If you want less bunny-hugging in the North, don't play bunny-hugging PCs in the North.

This doesn't mean "Don't play in the Northlands unless you want to be a bunny-hugger." This means that more folks should actively play in the north with less Bunny-huggy PCs. Quite frankly, despite the fact that many of you insist that the North isn't harsh, I seriously don't understand how a city with legalized thievery and assassination could possibly not be seen as harsh. This is obviously a city where people want to kill other people on a regular basis, and consider it a good potential business option.

I think people are overlooking alot of details and potential rolls for the gloss. Yes, they may be "happy-bunny" on the surface, but maybe folks should start taking a look at the totality of the documentation afforded to them, and maybe even start reading between the lines alittle before writing off half of the gameworld.

3) The same arguments, in reverse, could be stated for folks in Tuluk who don't like Allanak. Ultimately, the point is: You guys shouldn't hate Allanak, Tuluk, Luirs, Red Storm, or any other location on the mud as a site for potential rolls. Ideally, you guys should love the mud completely, tottally, and unabashedly.

On topic:

I think LoD stated it pretty well. The only other thing I might add (and I'm not a Northern staff, mind you), is to not confuse Commoner/Noble relations with Commoner/Commoner relations and Noble/Noble relations.

I think thats a good hint. Must run.

[Rindan]

I personally think you people are dramatically over reacting to Tuluk bashing and missing that it is on two levels.  

The first level being the most common one, it is a joking Allanaki patriotism that you really need to not take seriously.  It is a game.  It is like when someone is talking about nobles and they use the generic name of Lord Inbreed or Lord FancyPants.  It is playing up a stereotype for humor's sake.  No, I am not really an Allanaki patriot in real life.  

The second level is satirical poking at the constant BUT WE ARE SUBTLE response to any sort of criticism, constructive or otherwise, about Tuluk.  Tuluk is still in its early stages of feeling out their society.  It is still in the early stages of players trying to figure out how to play this role.  Allanak has been around since always so the arguments are less prolific.  We all roughly have a good idea what Allanak is supposed to look like, and we know roughly how close it is to being there and where the flaws are.  There is still plenty of room for argument, but for the most part I think there is at least a common vision.  Tuluk on the other hand has no real common vision yet.  What I read out of the documentation and what someone else reads out of the documentation might be two radically different things.  When two ideas are not meeting up, expect criticism and debate.  I think criticism and debate is extremely healthy in this case because it helps to bring forth ideas you might not have considered and perspectives that might make more sense.  

I think sweeping aside any criticism with 'but we are subtle' is not healthy and I think it is missing the point of subtly.  Subtle is not planning an assassination against that filthy half-elf sitting next to you because you don't like half-elves.  Subtle is paying the bar maid to spill a drink on the filthy half-breed sitting next to you and then running off saying she is too busy to help clean up the mess.  Subtle is letting everyone know that you did it and that you did it because you don't like half elves sitting next to you, but letting everyone know in a way other then standing up on your bar stool and declaring it.

Subtle and invisible are two very different thing.  Subtle is being less then blatant.  Invisible is doing it in such a way that no one knows what happened, which in my opinion is silly and not the Tuluki mentality.  That is like an elf stealing something for his tribe and never telling anyone.  Sure, you might be a good elf in that you can steal, but your status never goes up unless you actually tell someone about your theft.  The same could be said for Tuluk.  You might subtly show your dislike for someone, but unless at least your victim knows it is you, you are not accomplishing anything.  They can't be forced to change their behavior or give in unless they know why they are taking 'subtle' attacks.  Further, unless others know about your actions on some level, then you are going to have to sit there and plot subtle ways to harm each and every person who offends you, because no one will be the wiser to avoid getting on your bad side.

So, could people be a little less sarcastic?  Sure, but I think the point overall is fair.  "But we are subtle" is not a good response to any criticism that Tuluk is too bunny hugging.

[Rindan]

On to other things...

I disagree with LoD on class separation.  I would actually say that Tuluk has at least, if not more class separation then Allanak.  I think the differences between and Tuluki commoner and a Tuluki noble are greater then the Allanaki equivalents.  The difference is that Tuluk tends to have better class relations, which is an entirely different thing.  

Imagine if the roles had been reversed and it was Allanaki nobles hiding from an invading Tuluki army?  Do you think for a moment that Allanaki nobles would think twice about fucking their dirty and filthy protectors just to get their rocks off?  They would do it and not have any sort of shame in admitting to having a few bastard children.  Hell, in such a situation they would probably find having a small army of bastard children useful.  Tuluki nobles on the other hand maintained strict class separation even while under and occupation, or in the very least never speak of any lapses in class separation.  No concubines, no occasional commoner lovers, just a strict separation between the world of nobles and the world of commoners, even when under the worst of circumstances.

Now, there is better communication between the two classes.  It is much easier to approach a Northern noble then it is to approach an Allanaki noble.  I would keep in mind though that this is more a function of utility then any great love.  Tuluki nobles allow commoners to approach because during the war they learned it was useful to them.  They still very much consider themselves a far superior breed then commoners.  Tuluki nobles are fanatically puritan about their world not touching the world of the commoners.

[LoD]

I used poor language to convey what I meant.  I had meant to imply that there is less of a 'reminder' of class separation between the commoners and nobility of Tuluk.  That there is not so great a gap 'evident' or 'reinforced' as it would be, and often is, in the southlands.

LoD

[Angela Christine]

I like Tuluk.

The long roads and spread out nature of the city is realistic, and smart from a stratic point of view, (would you want to try to invade that maze?) but it can be bothersome to get from one area to another.  I'm not sure why the Firestorm and tribal pub aren't used more, hunters and traders have to go into the merchant's quarter and the tribal market all the time to sell stuff, and while they are there it wouldn't be any more trouble to sit at the nearby pub than it is to walk back to the sanctuary.  There is even a stable fairly near the Firestorm Pub, and that is the stable my hunters and traders perfer because it gets my goods closer to the market.  The Tooth is kind of screwed, even when the vineyard had a public stable it was still a long way to the tooth.  On the other hand it isn't all that far from the central stable to the Tooth.

Anyway, I propose two simple changes that could make a difference:

1. Redecorate the Sanctuary.  Ok, I haven't had a good look at it lately, but last time I did it was definately had a "shabby genteel" feel.  The furnishings had been nice once, but everything definately needed fresh paint, fresh apholstery, and the wooden fixtures could stand to be sanded and refinished.  Put some tables or something in the ballroom, that way people who don't want to sit next to halfbreeds or see the stripper would have a place to sit.  Refurbishing the Sanctuary would make it more obvious that it is a classy place, and make grubby people more uncomfortable.  Make it obvious that most crafting will be very unwelcome, even whittling or featherworking.  Seeing piles of sawdust around the place makes it look low-class.

The other alternative would be to build an even fancier bar near to the noble's quarter, but I don't think Tuluk really needs another tavern.

2.  Decrease the movement delay for Tuluk.  The grid is all layed out, so shortening the distances between things would be impractical.  But it might not be that hard (I really have no idea) to change the movement delay for that zone.  The streets are all new, flat, clean, and wide, so it even makes sense ICly that you could travel a little more quickly along them.  It would still take many keystrokes to get from one place to another, but at least you could spend less time on travel within the city.  

AC

[creeper386]

There are a few reasons why I seriously dislike Tuluk.

One deals with how everyone plays there. Perhaps it's just because they are all subtle but the few times I've played there I've had to beat off help with a stick, and beat off rebuttals for being hateful with a bigger stick. It isn't that easy just to say don't create bunny-hugging PCs there. As they well get fucked over ICly because the other PCs won't like it.

Two, deals with everything seemingly trying TOO hard to seem different to Allanak with little success. I think the main reason PCs don't want to seem rude or anything even you half-breeds/elves/dirty malcontents, is because it's a common thing in Allanak so they don't want to do it in Tuluk. Before when I spoke of it being easy in Tuluk, really had to do with PC interaction and everything being nice, and the ability to acctually hunt was NICE. Now from what I've seen you step out the west gates and there are mean killer things all around, not only killing your PC but I'm guessing eatting anything worth hunting. I don't want to sound rude to the staff or anything as I think they do great work, but they need to learn that putting in uber NPCs doesn't fix anything.

Overall, everything feels like things are different just to be different from the south. Nothing really fits together. Sure the city is still growing but thats not it. It should feel like the city is still developing, but shouldn't feel like things are broken. There should be a reason things are different beyond it's not that way in the South. Strong NPCs shouldn't be incredibly common right outside the gates or within a decent walk. Walking a short distance along the North road and seeing two-three tembo and a large pack of Gortok is like seeing five behemoths all close together in the plains. Well I think I've seen four at once but it's still very odd. Specially when all those things kill off everything else in the area.

Make it different, make it harsh, but not just for those reasons. Make it fit with everything else. Adding in lots of mean NPCs up there certainly doesn't make it different. It makes it feel like every other patched MUD that has too strong of PCs at the current moment. Sure have things subtle, but that doesn't mean racism, and hatred disapear. You may not stand up and personally cart the filthy halfbreed from the bar but that doesn't mean you just plop down in a stool next to him and chat it up. Thats not subtle. That's lack of any conflict period.

Different for no other reason but to be different doesn't work. Subtle doesn't mean be polite to everyone.

Personally, I love the city itself. I don't get how you people wouldn't like it. I have no problem with the locations of anything or the long roads of the city. Although a stable or two would be nice. It's just the playing that goes on there and the problem with NPC distribution that I really can't stand. When I first start a character it's bad enough to play a normal PC in the South that has job offers left and right. It's really bad to go up north and get help offers out of the blue. By multiple unclanned people and such. I don't see how the whole, "I just met this guy but lets go hunting together." thing works when everyone you run into does the same thing. Bleh.

Creeper is probably absolutely wrong but doesn't really care, if it comes down to being unable to play there makes him a bad player, oh well.

[Bestatte]

I don't know what the big problem is that some people have with the distribution of hunting in the north. I mean for crying out loud.

You get maybe one or two days a RL week with a few critters straying from their usual area and the whole fucking world is blowing up.

It's not THAT bad. Having that random spurt of nasty forces people to make decisions. Do we get a group together and go anyway? Do we try to run past the pack o'toks? Do we head south instead of east? Or how about those two OTHER gates? Should we check those out instead? Or - do we stay in town and hang out in one of the five different bars available to us and talk to each other instead of spending the day hunting, only to return to town and sit idle for 20 minutes til dawn?

I play a character who's primarily a hunter, and I'm having no issues at all. I'm not max-skilled, I don't spend as much time out there as maybe a d'elf in a tribe would, and I still won't try to take on a tembo by myself. I've spent plenty of days "stuck" in the city, and managed to find something to do even in the wee hours of the morning when there's no other PCs around to interact with.

There's lots of risk, both in and out of the city, and there's lots of ways to play safely, both in and out of the city. And I'm also sick of people complaining about Tuluk, and the huggy-bunny players. There are some, sure. There are also some in Allanak. Just because it's a harsh world doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any NICE characters. I don't see any problem at all.

[Stroker]

You know what I like about the USSR? You don't hear a lot of bitching from anyone, because they're all scared of being shot by KGB members. I propose we elect me to lead a similar organization on Armageddon. I will (with several colleagues) track down all those who whine and sexually molest them. I do believe that will get the point across.

All sexual fantasies aside ..... why can't you just enjoy the game and leave it alone. If you can't post anything useful, then just don't post (I realize how hypocritical that sounds, but I rarely complain like you). If you need to take out some rage, do what I do ..... gun down a few capitalist pigs.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I'm sorry, I really don't see how this topic is useless. I might have been blunt and tactless, I may have dumped my usual sugar-coating in my rant, but I still offered my thoughts and opinions on how Tuluk could be better. I was informing people that there was, in my eyes, a problem (the playerbase was concentrated in one spot) and suggested how they go about fixing the perceived problem (that the players take matters into their own hands, disperse, and occupy taverns other than the Sanctuary). I may have been critictal of the players or the game, but I had a purpose, and wasn't just whining for the sake of whining.

Anyways, I'd like to say that I agree strongly with Tlaloc's points. In fact, his number one is why I'm currently playing in Tuluk... I wanted to restart in a new area to avoid former aquaintances, and I really wanted to give Tuluk a chance. There are a lot of things I like about Tuluk... The enviroment, both within the city and the Scrublands, the long, winding streets, the NPCs (some beautifully done descriptions, kudos to the Imms and players that slapped together those townspeople), certain areas just really pop. With that said, am I not allowed to complain when there is a part of Zalanthas I don't like? When there is an area that I think can be improved, aren't I allowed to suggest how?

As for Tlaloc's buinny-hugging point, I also agree with that. There are F-mes and fluffy folk in Allanak as well. The fact is the bunny-huggers are PLAYERS, not CHARACTERS. Tulukis aren't bunny-huggers by default, it just so happens that a lot of bunny-hugging players are in Tuluk now. I don't see what's wrong with telling people that bunny-hugging is not okay... Clearly they aren't getting the message with subtle methods, espicially when they keep feeding 'rinth beggar after 'rinth beggar.

The thing is, I offered a real solution to a real problem in this thread, and I was treated as just another 'Tuluk-basher'. Feel free to disagree, but don't just give me a scoff and a dismissive wave. Or an AK-47 shot to the head for that matter, Dirr.

[Ayashah]

I see your gripe and why you put it that way. People get defensive of their game/preferences. I totally agree with Tlaloc on switching where you are each time. I do that. Even with that said, I DO have my preference for rp'ng a pc at but not to the point that I would bash anyone.

My previous post was a 'here's what you can try doing or others should try doing' not a put down and I am sorry if it came across that way.  

Perhaps people just assuming it's 'Tuluk bashing' because of the way people post on it negatively. *shrugs*  But again, not every half-elf/degenerate hangs in the Sanctuary.  

[Quirk]

Clearly they aren't getting the message with subtle methods, espicially when they keep feeding 'rinth beggar after 'rinth beggar.

I have to agree, this is indeed the real problem with Tuluk.

There is, of course, conflict in Tuluk. I've seen it, have in some cases been in the heart of the conflict, have even plotted successful assassination. However, you see the fine aide to some noble listening sympathetically to the woes of your Southern half-breed at the bar and giving him charity. You see humans with status in society taking the side of the outcast half-breed or elf that they know a little over the respectable human who they do not. Heaven forbid that someone should be racist against dwarves or half-giants, too!

There is conflict in Tuluk. Sometimes the conflict is all one could wish for; finagling and double-dealing ending in tragedy, secret magickers sold out and spies eliminated. Sometimes though it rises out of unrealistic circumstances, when a human, keen to defend his dwarven buddy, pulls strings within his House to make trouble for the wicked bigot who shows public disdain for dwarves, or, having friendly overtures rebuffed by a surly elf, moves to make that elf's life difficult. Conflict of that nature does not make a harsh world, merely a cliquey one.

I find Rindan's point about subtlety very valid. Acting open and friendly to everyone but having a secret agenda is not subtlety. If you're a half-breed or lowlife of other sorts, it's quite possible you'll seek to curry favour with those of higher social rank, not at all unrealistic. However, those who have status, who have position, who are employed in noble service or by a Merchant House, ought to snub their inferiors if they become overly familiar. Subtly snub them, yes, but snub them nonetheless, and if subtle snubs don't work then there is a need for greater bluntness.

It would help tremendously, I feel, if people spread out more, didn't just hang round the Sanctuary. In 'Nak the taverns provide approximate social classes, from noble down to 'Rinther, so people are encouraged to stick to their own social grouping and the dirty whore who wanders into the Barrel or the silk-clad merchant who wanders into the Folley is soon made to feel unwelcome. But in Tuluk the Sanctuary seems to welcome everyone. Yes, it certainly promotes interaction - people who'd never normally interact because of class differences get a chance to RP with one another. But is that a good thing?

Quirk

[spawnloser]

So wait...the 'rinth moved up to Tuluk?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Oh yeah it did.

On the subject of Tuluk in general and the Sanctuary in particular, I haven't played in Tuluk in a while.  But I will next character, thus I'll find out which of you are right and which of you are bunny-hugging idjits.

[Anon]

I think because of the difference in history for Tuluki both nobles and commoners, the amount of open racism would be less so than Allanak.

I think the problem is trying to find a norm for Tuluk other than just copying Allanak and everyone openly hating everyone else.
After all, how many of those that helped the nobles in the war, were of races other than human...I'm sure many of them were.

I've had my pc in 'nak for a little while now and I'm seeing just as many openly "nice" chars as I've seen up north.

I think humans going out of their way to help non-humans is unrealistic (depending on the char, but in general) unless, especially in Tuluk, you need to take a moment and think...are they really doing it to help them, or are they -getting- something out of it?

I know lots of those characters are helping someone out because they intend to gain something for themselves out of it, whether it be an employee, information, or they see a potential for them to be used later on to further their own needs.

Knowledge is power and the more people you know, the more chance to aquire knowledge you might not otherwise have.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the original post about the different taverns should be frequented by the appropriate type of people.

[marko]

Let's keep one thing in mind in all these discussions about Tuluk.

Tuluk has only been free for 27 IC years.

That's one generation or possibly two short lived generations.

There will still be a "lot" of people in Tuluk who were there when Allanak was occupying.

The events of the occupation would still be part of the 'living memory' of Tuluki citizens.

Anyway, the real point of this reminder - Sanctuary was built before the occupation of Tuluk.  Sanctuary served as a meeting place for all people of the northlands.  This memory would not fade in 27 years although it may slowly change over time.  As such, I do not feel it is inappropriate for hunters, traders, travellers, etc etc would be using it.  To the imms who built the Sanctuary originally - well done!  I've always liked it and enjoyed it immensely.

Tuluk should, and is, going through growing pains.  A new generation will be coming up and replacing the old.  These younger ones may not take heed of the 'dire warnings' of their elders about the 'brutality' of Allanak's occupation.  

Anyway, it's food for thought.  Tuluk isn't that old.  It doesn't necessarily have its own identity figured out.  The laws are still new and the 'traditions' are sparkling.  The 'establishment' is only 27 years old.

In the liberation a lot of the old leaders of Tuluk died.  This leads to a fresh outlook that could potentially experience serious mistakes.  There will still be nobles in the Houses who remember that they were protected by Woodsman Joe.  They would still remember playing kruth to pass the night as an Allanaki patrol kept them safe (err.. oppressed).  I imagine some of the old timers might even remember fondly when Allanak protected them... but I may be crazy

Tales of the valour of rebels could still be large - after all, some of the streets are named after the major rebels.  Of course, it may be the opposite now as the youth mature and think that Tuluk can 'make it on its own' and that they are so blind in the 'strength of Tuluk' that 'threw out the Allanaki' soldiers.  I don't know - it's for the city to develop both ICly and OOCly.  

But once again please, when discussing Tuluk, remember how young it is.  I think the city is beautiful and the descs are awesome.  I like its layout and the design.  From what I've seen of the imms currently handling Tuluk I've been incredibly impressed.  Let Tuluk grow and create its own history but remember that it is still young.

[Tamarin]

Yes yes... Tuluk is subtle and all that annoying as hell jazz.

I'm a jazz major in canada.  I was just wondering, what the fuck is hell jazz??

[crymerci]

1) Though you guys may be joking around, it seems like you're becomming increasingly strictly northern/strictly southern players. This isn't how you should be playing, at all. Armageddon is Zalanthas as a whole. Its highly recommended that, when you die, you play in a different region of the game - and try to play there for a signifigant amount of time, so that your next Character isn't influenced/recognizable/distracted by the Old PC's he or she interacted with.

Well, I think the way we should be playing is the way that entertains us. If we don't enjoy the 'rinth or Red Storm or even Tuluk, then we shouldn't feel like we have to play there.  I realize this wasn't stated as a commandment from on high, but rather a "general good idea" but, to be frank, I'm not sure that it's realistic.  At least, it seems to be contrary to what a lot of people do.

[crymerci]

My feelings about Tuluk are really mixed.  I love the city itself--the unique flavors of the different quarters, the artistic flair, the taverns, the shops, the way the templarate runs.  But my reaction to the PC's playing there, like that of so many others, is merely lukewarm.  Everybody's just too nice, and clean, and cultured. I know a lot of you are going to stop reading right there because I'm obviously (to you) one of those deluded people who think you're all bunny lovers. It's not that, really.

I think the original point of this thread is valid: people should spread out more amongst other taverns.  I don't think, given the history of Tuluk, that the undersirables would be forcibly removed or forbidden entry from the Sanc (as they might from the Trader's Inn) but rather, that they would feel not entirely at ease there.  They would stop in occasionally, but when they really wanted to relax they'd go elsewhere.  The Sanc is (I believe) the only tavern a Tuluki noble is allowed in propriety to visit.  In a way, that makes it the nobles' tavern. Certainly a commoner would feel free to drop in, and perhaps even approach a noble (in an acceptable manner) if they wished to speak with the noble regarding patronage or business, but they would take pains to be at least neat and presentable.  In other words, a halfbreed hunter very well might visit the Sanc from time to time, but not covered in sweat, sand, blood, or grime.  Nor would there be a barstool with the exact imprint of their behind imprinted permanently on it, if you get my point.

Maybe there aren't enough unlikeable people in Tuluk?  Or maybe the hatred is actually too subtle? I'm not really sure what the overall solution is, here.  But I do think that the original point is valid, that things need to spread out from the Sanc.

[Ayashah]

Or maybe the real unlikeables dont show their faces in Sanctuary all that much so arent known to be about.

*wink*

[Anonymous]

My biggest complaint about Tuluk is from a previous south/elf-hating PC I played who was regularly chastised or involved in fights with fellow northerners (at least in accent) who seemed to want to set me on the right path of tolerance and understanding.

Yeah, I know, they were being subtle.

I think a city-state recovering from a brutal occupation would save subtlety for each other and bring out the pitch-fork wielding mobs for southerners.

That's my beef.  I just don't get the reserved hate for a people who killed and/or raped your family before you.

[flurry]

As for Tlaloc's buinny-hugging point, I also agree with that. There are F-mes and fluffy folk in Allanak as well. The fact is the bunny-huggers are PLAYERS, not CHARACTERS. Tulukis aren't bunny-huggers by default, it just so happens that a lot of bunny-hugging players are in Tuluk now. I don't see what's wrong with telling people that bunny-hugging is not okay...

This paragraph stuck in my head, and I thought I would respond.  

You said that bunny-huggers are players, not characters, and there are a lot of bunny-hugging players in Tuluk now.  Are you suggesting those players play the same personality most of the time?   And how would you know, unless you know who is playing whom?  Or, maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by bunny-hugging player.    It seems like you're assuming that a lot of people in Tuluk (a) play the same type over and over and (b) are somehow playing wrong (since you say that it's "not okay" to be a bunny-hugging player).

Clearly they aren't getting the message with subtle methods, espicially when they keep feeding 'rinth beggar after 'rinth beggar.

Or perhaps they got the message and simply disagree that something is wrong with they way they are playing?


I'm not saying there's no room for criticism, but it seemed a bit presumptous to suggest there are a lot of bunny-hugging players (if I understand what you mean by that) in Tuluk.   Or, even if there are, to expect them to change because some people think it should be RPed differently.

[drunkendwarf]

I agree with the idea that some of this needs to be fixed IC. Nobles and templars need to start sneering at the shady elf smoking spice in the corner of the Sanctuary, eyeing the purse of Lady Fancypants. Players need to enforce the social roles in these bars...and a bit of a cleanup of the Sanctuary would indeed help get the point across. I know as an elf, I'm seldom even glared at, let alone told to leave, when I sit my elven ass down on that plush, leather couch..just next to Lord Tightass's table. From the last time I played in Allanak...elves were nearly lynched when they walked into Trader's... Get rid of the ale and cheaper drinks there too...or jack the price up so high hunters and the like will go elsehwere...course, the problem with that is I really don't see many of the tavern sitters actually BUY anything while they sit there all night. I, like many others, go where the other PC's are. Chase some of the PC's out, and I'll follow. Of course, this is all assuming the Sanctuary is really SUPPOSED to be a classy place.
There really does need to be more racial/social class tension in the north, ESPECIALLY when it comes to southerners...I'll be happy the day I see a known southerner being assaulted with rotten fruit or spit at as they walk down the road...I mean..it's only been 27 years people! In all my lingering about the Sanctuary, I've had exactly ONE person toss a little rp my way about being an elf..and I loved every second of it. Bunny-huggers? One of my characters would spit at an elf any time he saw one, and refused to even set foot in the tribal market. Let's see some more of that, people! Don't be afraid to start some shit...my character lives for it with you stupid roundears!  :twisted:

[JollyGreenGiant]

Hmm.  Alright.  I'll make a non-bunny-hugging Tuluki.  Just you wait!

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

JollyGreenGiant, I think I speak for everyone when I say... Huh?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yeah...huh.

[Stroker]

I think what he was getting at here is we should all stop wearing tight hats.

[crymerci]

I think what he was getting at here is we should all stop wearing tight hats.

"Tight hats" eh?  Is that what they're calling them these days?

[JollyGreenGiant]

Alright, well, I thought it was funny.  And a bit on topic.  Maybe.

[Cuusardo]

I've seen many disgusting things go on in Sanctuary that no PCs seem to do anything about.  I am hoping that the IMMs will help out a little with this one, as i have seen the bartender in Sanctuary yell at a PC who started carving up a piece of wood at the bar, and tell the PC to stop dirtying up the place.  I think the bartender REALLY should have done something about the PC who slapped a bunch of some creature's innards on the bar and started crafting them.  IMO, the bartender should not have let that happen.  Yet it did, because no one said anything to the PC about it.  That type of thing should NOT happen in the most upscale tavern in town that is frequented by nobility and wealthy commoners!

[Loving them northerners]

From the Tuluki roleplay doc:

However, due to the long period of Southern occupation in which the nobles faced obscurity or death, the relationship between the nobility and the common citizen has developed a much more amicable bond. It is not unheard of, nor is it frowned upon, for a noble to be seen in a tavern (though the selection of taverns are usually chosen to avoid the seedier elements) enjoying the company of the many commoners that inhabit such pubs.

I write this to remind the northerners that Tuluki nobles and northern commoners can be chums.  They can drink together, they can hang out, they can laugh together.  Tuluki nobles are not restricted to Sanctuary unless this is something that has changed since the document was written.  What I'm seeing is a revision of Allanaki nobility in the guise of the Chosen.  Let's remind ourselves that Tuluki nobles hid with the commoners and depended upon them.  That type of relationship just doesn't go away or turn into a "I'm a noble - you can't touch me" relationship.  

The only true 'taboo' that I see in the documentation is a sexual relationship between a noble and a commoner (a stark difference from Allanak where such things happen without a batt of the eye).

There is a caste system in Tuluk but the relations between commoner and noble is, according to the doc, amicable.  

The other thing is that while Tuluk is 'subtle' (what the hell does that really mean?) it doesn't mean everyone should be friends or appear to be friends.  Or maybe it does.  Could someone explain what "subtle" means in Tuluk?

[JollyGreenGiant]

I posted this elsewhere once, but in answer to "what is subtle", I get the impression that it is by way of comparison.  Poison in wine or a knife in the dark is more subtle than a broadsword to the face.  Insults that could also pass for compliments are more subtle than a string of profanity.  Making someone quietly disappear with no one the wiser is more subtle than shipping them off to get publicly slaughtered by a mul in the arena.

I would expect that nobles have a better grasp of subtlety than commoners, but I'd also expect that most commoners would try to imitate their "betters" to whatever extent they could.

[flurry]

I think that's a good description of it.  I've heard people mention that their Tuluki characters were corrected in some fashion for openly hating southerners or elves.  I think Tuluki culture favors things done in an artful and elegant and yes, subtle, way.  That's true for killing and stealing, and I imagine it is also true for insults and such.  So it seems reasonable that while the anti-southern or anti-elven sentiments themselves are not frowned upon, displaying them in a crude and artless way is.

[Quirk]

Blunt:

With a surly scowl, the pink-haired merchant tells the skinny half-elf,
   "Get out of here, you fekking half-breed, this isn't a place for the likes of you."

Subtle:

The pink-haired merchant glances over at the skinny half-elf.

His voice carrying clearly across the tavern, the pink-haired merchant tells the foppish bard,
  "I heard Salarr fired another half-breed last week. It beats me why they take them on in the first place."

Not quite right:

Smiling pleasantly, the pink-haired merchant asks the skinny half-elf,
  "Hi there, I'm Bert. What's your name, and are you looking for a job?"

Quirk

[Quirk]

So it seems reasonable that while the anti-southern or anti-elven sentiments themselves are not frowned upon, displaying them in a crude and artless way is.

Equally, not displaying them at all ought to be looked down on. Lack of subtlety is a social misdemeanour, certainly, but not on the same level as being a stinking elf-lover. :twisted:

Quirk

[Anonymous]

Not quite right:

Smiling pleasantly, the pink-haired merchant asks the skinny half-elf,
"Hi there, I'm Bert. What's your name, and are you looking for a job?"

That depends...what are you offering a job for?
Much easier to get someone to act as "cannon fodder" if they think you are being nice to them because you -are- nice by your open actions.
It doesn't mean that you aren't planning on using them for a scapegoat or just more infantry to throw their lives away for whatever whim you have.

[Quirk]

Not quite right:

Smiling pleasantly, the pink-haired merchant asks the skinny half-elf,
"Hi there, I'm Bert. What's your name, and are you looking for a job?"

That depends...what are you offering a job for?
Much easier to get someone to act as "cannon fodder" if they think you are being nice to them because you -are- nice by your open actions.
It doesn't mean that you aren't planning on using them for a scapegoat or just more infantry to throw their lives away for whatever whim you have.

Doesn't matter, unless the job is important enough to you that you're willing to jeopardise your social standing and get a name as one who hangs round with filthy half-breeds just to get it done. If the breed comes looking for a job, fine. No need to go running round subserviently offering one. Being nice to half-breeds and elves is a social faux pas.

Quirk

[Trenidor]

I didn't realy bother to read past the first page of this post, so if this has already been discussed, I'm sorry  

Why doesn't the road be expanded to Fire Storm Pub so that it goes straight from the gate  up north to where the pub is at?

All that would requre is a a building or two being A. Broken in half so the road can go by, or B. the area cleared so that people can walk through whatevers between two buildings etc. At least...I think that's why there isn't already a road that does that...

[Stroker]

So the truth comes out. The only reason those other taverns are not visited is because we are just too fucking lazy. That's what capitalism does to you!

Hurray for Communism!

[Bestatte]

It's more of a matter of...the taverns are so far from the city gate, that temporary visitors would get to a tavern only to have to turn right around and head back out again. That's kinda pointless.

I have seen more people frequent the Firestorm lately, so that's good.. But the Tembo's Tooth still remains virtually unoccupied. Which is pretty odd considering that there's Bynners who come up from the south, probably very eager to spice themselves silly.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I have seen more people frequent the Firestorm lately, so that's good...

I've noticed this too. Thanks for the effort, people. Kudos. Many kudos.

Which is pretty odd considering that there's Bynners who come up from the south, probably very eager to spice themselves silly.

This has always bothered me... I think I'll make a thread about it. W00t for new threads!

[Stroker]

You do that and I'll do to you what I do to everyone else on my 'hit list.' And that is brainwash you to become a mindless proponent of communism and if that doesn't work I'll just beat you over the head with a rock.

[jhunter]

You do that and I'll do to you what I do to everyone else on my 'hit list.' And that is brainwash you to become a mindless proponent of communism and if that doesn't work I'll just beat you over the head with a rock.

Yeah, it would be a rock because you can't afford nukes anymore commie!

[Stroker]

Yet we still have enough nukes left over from the Cold War to make your ass pucker.

You donkeys, you double-faced asses.

[Faglore]

Yet we still have enough nukes left over from the Cold War to make your ass pucker.

.

Judging from a few intense calculations, it would take exactly 9203 grade-a nuclear missles to make my ass pucker.

[Stroker]

We have exactly one more than that.