Please keep it about elves ability to run. Thanks

Inspired by comments in - http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,29160.0.html

Quote from: Throttle on January 03, 2008, 09:18:14 PM
I've always found city elves to be one of the "worst" races in the game, for many reasons.

- Code-wise they're about as poor as it gets. Their lack of strength and  endurance makes them terrible compared to any other playable race.  Add to that the fact that they can't ride, which rules out much out-of-city activity, and that very few clans will accept them. They get screwed over badly by the terrible stat system.

Quote from: Malken on January 03, 2008, 09:42:02 PM
Give them the bonuses of the desert elves and I guarantee you you'll start seeing elves in the game again.

At the very LEAST they should be able to run from one city to another.

When nobody wants to play the race, it's time to take a look at it and try to improve it some.

If you don't want the city elves to have the stamina of the desert elves, THEN at least get rid of this insane pride that they have toward (not) being able to go from one place to another with their legs, so they don't need a mount. (Hah!)

Desert elves: Proud, athletic, desert dwellers. They can run for miles, don't need mounts.
City elves: Tricksters, thieves, scums, that's where their pride comes from, they have absolutely no problem with riding mounts.

That's how it should be, in my opinion.

NO! I don't want City Elves out in the wastes running around like a Desert elf would!.
& No! I wouldn't want to see elves on any mount!

Quote from: Cerelum on January 04, 2008, 10:14:57 AM
Can city elves run between cities like a desert elf can?  If not.  No way in hell would I want to play one, cause elves sorta blow in other aspects, as says the help file.

Quote from: helpfiles - Race elvesNotes:
    Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
    races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak. They possess other abilities
    to compensate. If you are not happy running a character that is
    physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race.

Quote from: Malken on January 04, 2008, 10:16:54 AM
I don't even think they could run -halfway- between the cities.

I don't wanna say but anyone who's played a Traveller & a City elf would know.

Quote from: Maybe42or54 on January 04, 2008, 10:49:56 AM
City elves, like D-elves, are territorial. Leaving their city is like a d-elf leaving the grasslands. It shouldn't happen a lot.
City elves, like D-elves, are prideful. Riding a mount like a roundy little bitch because their legs are too weak to carry them? Absurd.

Agreed & Agreed!
Though to note,  I would like to see a change in how far they can run in the City & make them at least able to run further than any human in the desert.

Quote from: Cerelum on January 04, 2008, 11:24:33 AM

Quote from: Throttle on January 04, 2008, 11:19:30 AM

QuoteCity elves, like D-elves, are prideful. Riding a mount like a roundy little bitch because their legs are too weak to carry them? Absurd.

But it makes no sense. Why would city elves take pride in an ability that they don't have? Who are they kidding?

This has often been my bitch too.  D-elves get like massively better stats then C-elves and can run like 500 miles without resting.

C-elves just get nothing and are big pansies.

Quote from: Malken on January 04, 2008, 11:39:16 AM
That never made sense to me either. What are they proud of? That they are the reason why the entire Byn unit has to stop and wait for them to catch their breath every few minutes or so? Are they proud that they can't be traders by themselves and have to rely on stinkin' roundears to take them from one trading route to another?

The desert elf pride comes from the fact that they have powerful legs that can take them anywhere in the known world, and that is why they don't need no mounts, the city elves, they have their own pride, but in no way should it be related to the fact that they have strong legs as well. They just don't, code-wise. If they do ICly, then at least make it so code-wise, no?

We KNOW what city elves are capable of and what they're all about, but I still don't think that it has anything to do with the distances their legs can take them. Clever? Yup. Tricksters? You bet. Con-Artists extraordinaire? No one's arguing.. But able to run long distances? Pfft, c'mon.

Refusing to ride a mount when you can't run that far without getting exhausted is not pride, it's the whole race just being plainly retarded about it. Some elvish wiseman needs to stand up and speak the truth, unfortunately, the first elf who does so will have his race option taken away.

Quote from: Cerelum on January 04, 2008, 12:25:44 PM
I think they should be able to run like Desert Elves, or just allow them to ride mounts and erase that crap from their history about not wanting to ride.

J-Rod

Quote from: Mr.B on January 04, 2008, 01:22:09 PM
When my played my 100+ day desert strolling elf, I was faced with the problems mentioned in this thread. Don't believe city-elves just plain suck when it comes to combat since my stats were not astronomical with that character, but I still became one of the most powerful combat creatures on the mud. Unfortunately, the desert always kicked my ass (this was after the elf-wide stamina nerf) and I repeatedly mailed the imms about the fact that regular elves, though supposed to be runners - had less stamina then the equivalent human and suffered equally as much as a human would in the desert while running. I thought it was pretty damn stupid that a race known for their awesome, and no less then -awesome- running prowess couldn't beat feet in the desert for more then a minute or two without collapsing from utter exhaustion. I had suggested giving regular elves the ability to run in the desert just like desert elves. Elves would have still suffered from pitifully low stamina totals, would still need to rest more often then desert elves, and would also need to consume more water then their more rugged cousins, the desert elf. I thought it would make elves more playable and less completely restricted to city life. This idea was pretty brutally shot down later and I didn't press the issue. Does anyone here think that my proposal was outrageous?

Quote from: Fathi on January 04, 2008, 06:55:33 PM

Quote from: Maybe42or54 on January 04, 2008, 02:08:49 PM
Mr. B, your idea would make me play more city elves. However, I don't think City elves should be leaving the city as much as they do.

Keep in mind "leaving the city" doesn't always mean going out to the desert with the intent of running around the desert itself.

I think it would be perfectly reasonable for a city elf trader or assassin to want to go from Tuluk to Allanak or Luir's for supplies/orders or for a contract.

I've rarely seen city elves leaving the gates, but agree thats the way it should be.

Quote from: Dusky on January 04, 2008, 02:32:02 PM
I recall quite clearly a certain Kuraci city-elf who lived as though he were a desert elf (actually became extremely bad-ass) and it was a marvel of role-play that he took that non-riding disadvantage upon himself.

Quote from: helpfiles - Race elvesThe differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.

Quote from: Malken on January 04, 2008, 02:43:09 PM
Exactly, if there's only one elven race, then make it so code-wise, otherwise, change the docs, because it's false. VERY false.

What? The doc clearly states they're different, just means they're still one race.

Quote from: Maybe42or54 on January 04, 2008, 02:50:05 PM
I definately agree with Mr. B. All elves should have a natural ability to run a long distance.

I wish it was like this:
Theoretically.
If an D-elf has 207 stamina and loses 3 per room while running in the desert. Able to run 69 rooms.
If a human has 102 Stamina and loses 8 per room, while running in the desert. Able to run 13 room.
Then a C-elf should have 160 stamina and should lose 4-5 stamina while running in the desert. They should be able to run 32-40 rooms.

That would make me happy. In doing so, the D-elf would still be the king of the wastes, and roundies will still have to ride a mount, but a C-elf would still be able to take pride in the run.

Quote from: Troicha on January 04, 2008, 06:05:38 PM
Check city-running stamina vs. rounders. That's all I'm saying.

To be honest, I think city elves should have some 'other' type of a  bonus that works ONLY in the city. Perhaps a natural stealth bonus, or maybe a natural bonus to weapon skills in areas marked as crowded and so on.

City elf racial skill is greatly underappreciated, in my opinion.

City elves are the fastest race in the game, as long as running in the city.

The races are not a matter of being 'balanced', it's a matter of being able to fulfill their role correctly.

City elves happen to be some of the coolest roleplay in the game, in my opinion, once you're actually entrenched in the mentality.

I dont know. Personally I believe in a 'quasi' balance of the game. It doesnt have to be 'coded' balance, but it has to be a matter of 'offsets'. Magickers are crazy powerful code wise, aswell as have some membership options unavailable to others. But they're severely shunned socially. Muls are crazy powerful combat wise, but they are either slaved, or on a run, and are unstable. Half-giants are dumb, delves dont enter cities, ride, and are tied up to their tribes. And so it goes with every role. Celves though got a lot of negative offsets, and very few positive ones. They dont even have that much of an advantage of a 'tribe' of other elves that they could trust, unless multiple players start up a preplanned one or there's an upraise in normally closed up clans.

Infact come to think of it, there is a great deal of things a celf theme holds, that let's say ... a human couldnt do, or a half-elf. This isnt the case for pretty much any other race that I can think of.

I don't eat from the floor IRL, even when it's perfectly clean and I don't get a bonus to save vs poison. Some pigs might find my behavior irrational and unpractical.
The same way, my city-elves don't ride mounts, even though some GDB roundears might find this tradition obsolete.

You guys seem to be missing the part that city elves are just as tribe oriented as desert elves.

Until you display city elf tribes with a tradition for traveling between the cities, why do they need to 'run'? There is not one city elf tribe in the game that I'm aware of that is well known for wandering between the cities. It's likely most have happily spent their generations living, (and, if you're in a tribe you're likely not enslaved in a city, so you could say thriving) in the city environments (city elves) they have chosen for a home.

I'm fairly disappointed this part of the argument hasn't come up, it sounds like you just want to play city elves like agile humans or agile, arrogant dwarves. Playing a city elf isn't about going from city to city or exploring the known world. You're still playing an elf, roleplay is focused on a tribe whose inherant abilities come from living in likely one city. If you can't handle that, play a -desert- elf in a tribe known to travel, interact and sex everything (Sun Runners).

Personally, I'd like to see elves played properly before you give the part of the race without a karma requirement free-roaming capabilities so they can run off and portray the race even more poorly. Most tribes are not well documented and there's already too many for the staff to reasonably police.

The elven population in Zalanthas more or less requires them to be on the list that doesn't require karma and city elves are a very appealing option if you plan to play them how they've been written. Otherwise you're probably better off with a half-elf. My next character will be a city elf.

It would probably be better to either drop desert elves to a 0 karma race (where staff believes 'running' is too powerful an ability) or put city elves to 1 karma.

They run good in the cities, which is cool, but yeah.. they should be able to at least run a -little- better than humans in the wastes.  Not anything like Delves, but slightly better than humans.   But then again, a human from a tribe in the wastes should be able to run better than a human from the cities.  So I guess all races should be adjusted, depending on their upbringing.

Quote from: Doppelganger on April 12, 2008, 04:05:02 AM
I don't eat from the floor IRL, even when it's perfectly clean and I don't get a bonus to save vs poison.

What about the 3 second rule?

Having played both, I think they're fine as is. C-elves are damn good in their environment. If they want to leave the city, they either need to carry a tent or run with a group that carries one for them. Also, if a c-elf wants to do a lot of outdoor running, dressing accordingly can make a noticeable difference.

This trend that c-elves are somehow underpowered seems, for lack of a better word, ignorant to me.

Quote from: Sokotra on April 12, 2008, 10:50:22 AM
They run good in the cities, which is cool, but yeah.. they should be able to at least run a -little- better than humans in the wastes.

No offense, but desert elves often overshadow the fact that elves are weaker and less resilient than humans.  Desert elves do what they do because of generations of conditioning.  Those elves without that conditioning should be inferior to humans in desert travel.  The end.

Dalmeth pretty much says it.

City elves are not adapted to the desert like their ancestors were.  They are adapted to the city.  You shouldn't expect them to be superior to a human on a mount in the desert, because in all likelihood...they probably would be as uncomfortable there as a desert elf who decides to spend a lot of time in the city.

It happens, yes, but that doesn't mean they're -good- there, in a vague sense of the word 'good'.

I personally have seen some nasty elven warriors in the Rinth and such other places. I have also seen some damn dangerous non-combative elven PC's in those places. Combat is not the only way you can become powerful, therefore lacking strength is no big deal. And City Elves are the second most agile humanoid race in game. I personally think if they are played right like Hot Dancer said, they are just fine as a race. Everyone these days is so concerned about having that giant bruiser of a warrior.....I think that the more secretive types of PC's are more fun to play even though they may take a little more time to manage.

Basically, I think they are fine.

Desert elves should get a penalty to running in the city.

Quote from: Dalmeth on April 12, 2008, 02:55:09 PM
No offense, but desert elves often overshadow the fact that elves are weaker and less resilient than humans.  Desert elves do what they do because of generations of conditioning.  Those elves without that conditioning should be inferior to humans in desert travel.  The end.

Yeah, I'm still not sure on that... as far as desert travel in general, yes, humans should be better than city elves.  I'm talking about running.  Perhaps just on flat and solid terrain, but it just seemed to me that city elves should be at least -slightly- better than a city human when it comes to running in the desert.  I agree with what you are saying for the most part, though.  Maybe this could only go for when city elves are running on a road or something.. maybe it is already that way, I don't even know.  Just throwing out there what I thought would be logical.  I could be wrong... but again, a human from a desert tribe should be better at running through the desert than a human from the city.  Perhaps it wouldn't be that much of a difference to be noticeable, anyway.. or it would depend on the tribe.  *shrug*  Just a few thoughts...

If you combine specific things from strange shadow and Sokotra, I think you'd have a winning solution:

Make it so city elves get the reduced stamina drain when they're running on the North Road, between cities and Luir's. As soon as they leave the road, they go back to their usual stamina penalty. City elves are destined to be the -most- comfortable in the cities, no matter what the situation. So a little drain on roads outside the city would make sense. Just not as bad, or worse, than if they were a human doing the running. Because their legs are -still- longer and lanker than the average human. They -should- be able to stretch those legs further, with less stress, than a human should be able to do, on an actual road or well-worn path.

Also...

Make it so desert elves get a stamina penalty for running inside the city. Their feet, and even the way their boots get worn in, are adapted to soft ground, and rocky terrain. Not to smooth, hard-stone pavement. That should feel like a "slap" against the soles of their feet, virtually, and cause strain on the calf muscles and shins, and the arches of the feet..very tiring, you'd think.

Quote from: Lizzie on April 12, 2008, 08:37:33 PM
Make it so desert elves get a stamina penalty for running inside the city. Their feet, and even the way their boots get worn in, are adapted to soft ground, and rocky terrain. Not to smooth, hard-stone pavement. That should feel like a "slap" against the soles of their feet, virtually, and cause strain on the calf muscles and shins, and the arches of the feet..very tiring, you'd think.

Eh. I don't think so at all. Walking on uneven hard-packed ground, rocky terrain, and sand are all harder than walking on streets, regardless of what you're used to.

I like city elves just the way they are.

Does anyone think elves will exist in Arm 2.0, honestly?  There are more important things.  Still, while they exist, they should be able to run better than anyone else, and currently, they only can in certain areas, which is a load of BS.  Personally, I don't think there should be a delineation between city and desert elves, but oh well, we have one.  They should all just be elves with the same racial mods, going in and out of cities but remaining a nomadic people to the core.

City elves thrive so long as their 'rinthi.  

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 12, 2008, 09:31:16 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on April 12, 2008, 08:37:33 PM
Make it so desert elves get a stamina penalty for running inside the city. Their feet, and even the way their boots get worn in, are adapted to soft ground, and rocky terrain. Not to smooth, hard-stone pavement. That should feel like a "slap" against the soles of their feet, virtually, and cause strain on the calf muscles and shins, and the arches of the feet..very tiring, you'd think.

Eh. I don't think so at all. Walking on uneven hard-packed ground, rocky terrain, and sand are all harder than walking on streets, regardless of what you're used to.

Okay then maybe their semi-xenophobia leads them to rather freak out in the throngs typically gathering in cities, slowing their movement as they try to avoid contact.

Which is an interesting concept in itself.

Running through people?  City elves may be able to pull it off, whether by dashing through booths or whatnot.  Desert elves?  That's some densely packed space.  *shrug*

I'm not really preferential to anything in particular.  I don't think there's a 'fix' needed, but I wouldn't throw a fit about a change, either.

Oh yeah! I totally support the idea of giving city elves a run bonus in cities. They could dash through the crowds in the bazaars without ease, find the quickest paths down streets, etc.

Quote from: jstorrie on April 13, 2008, 04:10:05 AM
Oh yeah! I totally support the idea of giving city elves a run bonus in cities. They could dash through the crowds in the bazaars without ease, find the quickest paths down streets, etc.

But why couldn't a human do this?

Sorry for being off topic.

Because elves are better.