City elves & Running

[Barzalene]

I really enjoyed Hot Dancer's perspective. My intial reaction was no, they shouldn't run better in the wastes. But I think Hot Dancer really points out why they don't need that running bonus. Thanks HD

[RogueGunslinger]

Because elves are better.

... Oh. Right. Well then, dispute settled.

I keep writing out concepts for a delf, but I keep chickening out. I just cant bring myself to put in the App. It all sounds so intriguing, but then I'm like... Will I have fun? Will there be a consistent amount of people there to enjoy the game with? Will I be able to fight whatever urges I might get to go against the docs? Will I play one realistically?

Stuff like that.

[Vesperas]

A lot of people here have only pointed out the physical details about why city elves should be able to run outside of cities, but the way I see it, you have to look at their psyche as well.

I think the documentation is fairly clear that city elves are territorial and would most likely not leave their city (or, to be even more realistic, their district) of origin -- its home, it's familiar, it's THEIRS.  They are territorial over a specific area, not the vague concept of just "a city," and so I believe a city elf who was raised in Allanak would be just as uncomfortable in Tuluk as he would be in the middle of the bloody wastes (and vice versa). 

The running penality is fine; I can imagine very few instances where any sane elf (as far as sane goes with them.. ^.-) would have any business at all outside of their home turf.  The stamina penalties can be thought of as a direct result of their extreme discomfort.

Besides... out in the desert, or on the road to Luir's... they are still standing naked in the open.

[Maso]

I voted 'Let 'em ride mounts' because if the argument against them being able to run in the wastes is a lack of conditioning from generations of living in that environment I do not think they would have the same aversion to mounts as they do not have the same confidence in the ability which riding a mount replaces.

[Malken]

Pride in the fact that you don't ride mounts is the reason why your race is not making an appearance in Arm 2.

GG prideful city elves.

[Doppelganger]

Pride in the fact that you don't ride mounts is the reason why your race is not making an appearance in Arm 2.

IP issues aside, city-elves should not make it into 2.0 because concept of the race is seriously fucked up with staff enforcing thesis "don't trust an elf" too hard on OOC level. People refuse to buy even perfectly laid scam to avoid branded poor roleplayers, city elven merchant takes the same spot on a social ladder as your average undead, altogether it hardly represents the race that supposedly takes a quarter of city's population and been living alongside with humans for ages.

This thread itself is a natural development of roleplaying culture, IMO. When most vrtual guidelines are no longer taken seriously, people start question coded differences between races as well as the bounds that limit them to certain ways of racial roleplay. With that in mind, I believe that staff should make serious adjustments to racial structure of Arm 2.0. Races that are any different from human should make it, because they will be proven unplayable by the playerbase.

[Synthesis]

The thing I find irritating is that most PCs dealing with city elves don't take into account virtual or NPC families.

The main "bonus" city elves get is a family with practically unfailing loyalty.

Unfortunately, this is usually virtual, non-coded, and easily dismissed.  Hell, even when you -are- in a coded city-elf tribe, chances are there isn't a staffer assigned to it, which means you're only slightly better off than your average "my entire family is dead" city-elf.

[Vesperas]

I have felt an itch to get a mount with a city-elf.  If you're playing in such a way that you feel a need to go and drop half a large on a riding critter... just what exactly ARE you doing???

Admittedly, all of my city-elves save maybe one were played with a player-organized family.  I didn't know there were any hard-coded ones, but it isn't difficult to post on Player Announcements and start setting up a city-elf tribe, especially if you've got a talent for theme and writing up something interesting.  Playing the lone badass just doesn't pay. 

[Armaddict]

People refuse to buy even perfectly laid scam to avoid branded poor roleplayers, city elven merchant takes the same spot on a social ladder as your average undead, altogether it hardly represents the race that supposedly takes a quarter of city's population and been living alongside with humans for ages.

Just wanted to note (And sorry to derail), this is what I meant by the elven mentality.  In my opinion, elves should not rely on trust the same way other merchants may.  Instead, situations are manipulated to either make things incredibly tempting or give their 'scam target' little to no choice in the matter.  I'd point out examples, except for that then people would be on guard against it.  But if someone is having a really hard time getting into the elven mentality, drop me a line.  I don't consider myself an expert, but I did learn some tricks of the trade over the years.

Just to reiterate, an elven merchant may have this innate mistrust placed in them, but they know it will be there.  It leads to an entirely different way of doing business.  It is not merely a 'show your wares and haggle' deal that most merchants do, which is what makes the elf so enjoyable to play.  There are far more facets to their business than the average business-running PC.

[Doppelganger]

Would you believe, Armaddict, it's quite an easy task to tell when an average retard acts by the logic of IC events, and when he is suddenly struck with realisation that Mom and Dad told him not to talk with strangers.

I never said the role of an elven smuggler is an easy task and it never was. I simply point at the fact that three years ago the role was -possible-.

[Armaddict]

I don't think you understand what I mean.

I'm not talking about fooling them, I'm talking about making them HAVE to deal with you.

[Doppelganger]

Why, I understood that you talk about blade at their throat IRL.

[psionic fungus]

Has anyone else been unable to follow the last part of this conversation?


I personally feel that the City Elves have gotten the shaft for completely different reasons... Mainly a lack of documentation and an appropriate Staff/NPC layer.  It's almost all PC and VNPC.

Were you aware that there is only ONE coded, staff "sponsored" City-Elf tribe?  One...  And it's in the 'Rinth.

A resource-less ghetto with a glass-ceiling two cords above the rooftops....

Anyone else ever played in that Tribe and try to trade and do business with Desert Elves (as per the documents)?

Good Luck meeting them in the 'Rinth...
And don't LEAVE the city for the Highlord's sake, Zagren might get angry and ban you for a month...

Oh yes, and let's say you want to play in an established City-Elf tribe in Tuluk...  Tough cookies.  Even though a THIRD of the population is Elven, there are no established families, gangs, or other social groups.  Oops.


Shallow documentation that really gets to me...

[Armaddict]

Anyone else ever played in that Tribe and try to trade and do business with Desert Elves (as per the documents)?

I didn't have problems with it.  At all.

[Fnord]

This is turning into another general gripes with c-elf thread. Trendy!

Edited to be more constructive: Let's start a thread on how to improve c-elves!

[Sokotra]

Were you aware that there is only ONE coded, staff "sponsored" City-Elf tribe?  One...  And it's in the 'Rinth.

A resource-less ghetto with a glass-ceiling two cords above the rooftops....

Anyone else ever played in that Tribe and try to trade and do business with Desert Elves (as per the documents)?

Good Luck meeting them in the 'Rinth...
And don't LEAVE the city for the Highlord's sake, Zagren might get angry and ban you for a month...

Gotta say... I smell what you are stepping in.   Hard to disagree with any of that.

[Synthesis]

To clarify some things:

There are actually several -coded- city-elf tribes in the 'rinth.

Whether they all receive dedicated staff support is another question entirely.

[Armaddict]

Quote from: psionic fungus on Today at 09:22:54 am
Were you aware that there is only ONE coded, staff "sponsored" City-Elf tribe?  One...  And it's in the 'Rinth.

A resource-less ghetto with a glass-ceiling two cords above the rooftops....

Anyone else ever played in that Tribe and try to trade and do business with Desert Elves (as per the documents)?

Good Luck meeting them in the 'Rinth...
And don't LEAVE the city for the Highlord's sake, Zagren might get angry and ban you for a month...

Gotta say... I smell what you are stepping in.   Hard to disagree with any of that.

Aside from the want for city elf tribes, none of that is particularly accurate.  The clan was just a bad one for him, is what I gather, as the documentation is pretty good and very explicit in the culture of that tribe.

I suppose the bit about the resourceless 'rinth is true, but...how is that different for any other race?  Because they have a -different- clan option in the 'rinth?

[Maso]

In addition, I would like to say that there are definately places IG where it is possible to play an enjoyable C-Elf with all the family and social support that they should have available to them.

[psionic fungus]

Were you aware that there is only ONE coded, staff "sponsored" City-Elf tribe?

There are actually several -coded- city-elf tribes in the 'rinth.

Whether they all receive dedicated staff support is another question entirely.

I have been hounding the staff about a variety of issues surrounding city-elves for a few months now... I sent an email lamenting (once again) the lack of city-elf tribes and asking about playing a character in a certain tribe in the 'Rinth... The response was this:

Only the Haruch Kemad is supported staff wise of the rinth elven tribes.

YMMV.

Because they have a -different- clan option in the 'rinth?

Yes... You're moving in the right direction...

[musashi]

To get back to the running issue with city elves, I was thinking a little, and my conclusion goes something like this:

If desert elves can run long distances because of their physical conditioning, and not their racial genetics ... then city elves don't need to have any special running ability because they lack the physical conditioning that made desert elves able to run like that.

Of course, that might open the counter-arguement of: Ok then, if it's not genetic and it's based on physical conditioning why can't human tribals run long distances?

But ... then I remembered, human tribals don't have the cultural nuiance of refusing to let a mount carry their weight around so, even though the humans are living in tribes in the desert, they never bothered to condition themselves for long distance running because climbing on the back of a kank was an easier alternative.

So ... in the end, I'm thinking ... if the running ability is genetic, give it to the city elves as well. If the running ability is a product of their enviorment, then don't.

[Tisiphone]

If desert elves can run long distances because of their physical conditioning, and not their racial genetics ... then city elves don't need to have any special running ability because they lack the physical conditioning that made desert elves able to run like that.

Another interpretation being that, while elves are still the same race and can crossbreed, producing a fertile member of the same race (something that always got me about half-elves, mind you, but this isn't the place) elves in the desert naturally select for those who can run marathons, because the others die. Early. Now, there's obviously a great amount of physical conditioning that goes into simply growing up in the wastes, but humans simply -can't- do what desert elves do, because they haven't been under that genetic pressure for centuries/millenia.

[Synthesis]

Think of it like greyhounds and basset hounds:  yeah, they could probably hump and make greybass hounds, but the fact that they can do so in no way implies that even the fastest basset hound could ever run as fast as the most piss-poor, malnourished greyhound there ever was.

The fact that two sets share some common properties does not imply that both sets must therefore share all properties in common.  It's basic logic, folks.  (Remember those Venn diagrams they had you drawing up, and you were all like, "WTF, this is fucking stupid?")

Further, the "pop-culture evolution" nonsense is so bad I'm not even going to comment further on it.

[psionic fungus]

This begs the question: When a city-elf and a desert-elf mate, what is the offspring?

[Synthesis]

Drizzt Do'Urden