Can someone tell me (or point me to a doc discussing it, I tried to find but failed) what is an average spending power of a Zalanthan commoner, noble etc. I had a problem with charging ICly for various services. Didn't know what amount to ask, so I was pulling it out of my ass and was noticing some people didn't have problem parting with a sum large enough to rent them a place to stay for a in-game week or two for some stupid service (like sex ). Obviously, only later I found out the apartment prices. For example Bynn charges 300 sid for an entry fee, but somewhere I read that Bynn is full of desperate people who join the army to risk their lives because they have lost their jobs or so.

Average VNPC city-bound commoner: 250 'sid per year (can't remember where I saw this now, but it's in line with stuff I've seen in game with taxes and such)

Average soldier: 250 - 750 per year salary. (Everyone knows that soldiers make terrible wages, and yet live reasonably well due to bribes and corruption.)

Average clanned commoner grunt: 1500 per year (hunters with Kadius, Salarr, etc). More if they have an arrangement with their employer to also craft things and get part of the profit.

Indie merchant or hunter or grebber: Totally dependent on their own work ethic. It's a bit out of whack with the world and the docs, but this type of character typically has a lot of coin if they've been around very long at all.

Average GMH merchant/agent: Probably entirely depends on how hard they work to make deals. Sky's the limit; a merchant potentially could be doing deals in the 20-100k range for their House, and they get some portion of that.

Average noble: Depends on their stipend from their House, which probably depends on their performance in the eyes of their superiors, rank of their House, and so on. Could also include profits from deals they've cut. Could be almost nothing, could be a lot. A noble will never want to look like a penny-pincher, but they're not necessarily unending founts of coin, either.

Average templar: Depends on their effectiveness in suppressing crime, making deals, garnering bribes, etc. Could be almost nothing, could be a lot. Same as for nobles.

So at the higher levels of the game, in roles with more power, a LOT of spending power is dependent on the effectiveness of the character in their role.

All of this is in addition to actual legitimate bonuses provided by the clan/boss.

So the independent unclanned group of hunters might not be making a very good salary, but they're raking in the dough because their boss gives them a healthy cut on the profits he makes selling the raw materials to all the coded merchant houses in the city.

Or that low-ranking grunt who's only making 250 sids a month could -also- be making an additional 500 sids a month average for being extra helpful, doing more than his minimum job requirement, helping with recruiting, taking extra risks on behalf of his clan, etc. etc. Or maybe he's just getting free raw materials so he can craft stuff for his clan and for his own profits. Or it could be he is given an apartment in the city furthest from his clan's base, to use as a semi-headquarters while he's up there.

It really and truly depends on both the character in question, and the clan he's in. Add in the character of the guy's boss, and you have a pretty healthy mix to provide with a varied spending power that spans from one extreme to the other.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on February 12, 2008, 11:58:02 AM
Average soldier: 250 - 750 per year salary. (Everyone knows that soldiers make terrible wages, and yet live reasonably well due to bribes and corruption.)

I think that should be per month.

Just a small aside, it's worth considering that some organizations also provide varying degrees of room and board that are going to affect your numbers somewhat, as well as equipment, clothing and various forms of axillary support.   All of which affect how much of your income is disposal.

Of course, social status is even more complicated.

Quote from: brytta.leofa on February 12, 2008, 12:09:58 PM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on February 12, 2008, 11:58:02 AM
Average soldier: 250 - 750 per year salary. (Everyone knows that soldiers make terrible wages, and yet live reasonably well due to bribes and corruption.)

I think that should be per month.

No, I meant per year, because I was lumping together the city-states.

Also what Lizzie says is quite true. No matter the job a character is in, s/he can make extra if they are diligent.

Quote from: staggerlee on February 12, 2008, 12:14:36 PM
varying degrees of room and board that are going to affect your numbers somewhat, as well as equipment, clothing and various forms of axillary support.   All of which affect how much of your income is disposal.

This is true, but most characters will like to have an apartment of their own after an IC year or two, because it's nice to have that extra place for privacy from the clan, storing the stuff that doesn't fit in your locker, entertaining non-clannie friends, etc. In Allanak especially that is a large expense for clanned characters. (Reasonably secure apartments are MUCH cheaper in Tuluk.)

Zalanthan PCs, though, tend to be significantly more wealthy; many potential expenses are abstracted out for playability's sense, and it's not difficult to bring in a fair amount of cash even if it's on the side of a full-time day job.

Thanks, now I get the idea.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on February 12, 2008, 11:58:02 AMAverage clanned commoner grunt: 1500 per year (hunters with Kadius, Salarr, etc). More if they have an arrangement with their employer to also craft things and get part of the profit.

1500 sounds like very very much to me, especially if you consider all the VNPCs that will get hired for uninteresting, uneventful jobs that PC's don't do. I'd think the free food, water and a safe place to sleep is already considered a big part of their payment from clans (maybe with the exception of crafters). PCs get more because they are special. A PC aide that gets paid 400 sid per month would be pretty established, appreciated and well off, imho.

Quote from: Akaramu on February 13, 2008, 05:05:14 AM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on February 12, 2008, 11:58:02 AMAverage clanned commoner grunt: 1500 per year (hunters with Kadius, Salarr, etc). More if they have an arrangement with their employer to also craft things and get part of the profit.

1500 sounds like very very much to me, especially if you consider all the VNPCs that will get hired for uninteresting, uneventful jobs that PC's don't do. I'd think the free food, water and a safe place to sleep is already considered a big part of their payment from clans (maybe with the exception of crafters). PCs get more because they are special. A PC aide that gets paid 400 sid per month would be pretty established, appreciated and well off, imho.

Which is generally why jobs with the Great Merchant Houses and aideship to established nobles are considered insanely sought-after positions.

PC attitudes may not always reflect this, but I think it's safe to say that Joe VNPC Commoner the Salt Grebber/Dung Sweeper would be jealous indeed over people who'd managed to garner positions like that.

Gimf is correct.

Besides, you have to remember she's including making coin on the side or through arrangement.

I wouldn't consider making coin 'on the side' as part of the AVERAGE clanned Joe's yearly income. PCs yes, but they are special.

I still disagree that 1500 is average taking into account NPCs and VNPCs. But meh, it's not important enough to argue over. 

Quote from: Gimfalisette on February 12, 2008, 11:58:02 AM
Average VNPC city-bound commoner: 250 'sid per year (can't remember where I saw this now, but it's in line with stuff I've seen in game with taxes and such)

Average soldier: 250 - 750 per year salary. (Everyone knows that soldiers make terrible wages, and yet live reasonably well due to bribes and corruption.)

Average clanned commoner grunt: 1500 per year (hunters with Kadius, Salarr, etc). More if they have an arrangement with their employer to also craft things and get part of the profit.

Indie merchant or hunter or grebber: Totally dependent on their own work ethic. It's a bit out of whack with the world and the docs, but this type of character typically has a lot of coin if they've been around very long at all.

Average GMH merchant/agent: Probably entirely depends on how hard they work to make deals. Sky's the limit; a merchant potentially could be doing deals in the 20-100k range for their House, and they get some portion of that.

Average noble: Depends on their stipend from their House, which probably depends on their performance in the eyes of their superiors, rank of their House, and so on. Could also include profits from deals they've cut. Could be almost nothing, could be a lot. A noble will never want to look like a penny-pincher, but they're not necessarily unending founts of coin, either.

Average templar: Depends on their effectiveness in suppressing crime, making deals, garnering bribes, etc. Could be almost nothing, could be a lot. Same as for nobles.

So at the higher levels of the game, in roles with more power, a LOT of spending power is dependent on the effectiveness of the character in their role.

Average obsidian/glass miner: 2000 'sid a week.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on February 13, 2008, 11:38:13 AM
Average obsidian/glass miner: 2000 'sid a week.

After paying the rent, the daily prostitute and your two favorite courtesans.

Quote from: Akaramu on February 13, 2008, 05:05:14 AM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on February 12, 2008, 11:58:02 AMAverage clanned commoner grunt: 1500 per year (hunters with Kadius, Salarr, etc). More if they have an arrangement with their employer to also craft things and get part of the profit.

1500 sounds like very very much to me, especially if you consider all the VNPCs that will get hired for uninteresting, uneventful jobs that PC's don't do. I'd think the free food, water and a safe place to sleep is already considered a big part of their payment from clans (maybe with the exception of crafters). PCs get more because they are special. A PC aide that gets paid 400 sid per month would be pretty established, appreciated and well off, imho.

For the most part I was talking about PCs as "average clanned commoner grunt." VNPCs and NPCs are not going to pay the OP for whatever service/goods it is that s/he is looking to negotiate on ICly. 1500 -is- the typical yearly salary for this kind of job, and I'd say that's pretty much the starting wage in most clans, because any noble/merchant/templar who doesn't want to pay that much to an aide/crafter/hunter is going to lose that character to Kadius/Salarr. We can talk about what the "game economy" is and be nice and theoretical all day long, but the truth is that PC minions are in high demand and if the salary and other job conditions don't suit them, they'll go to another clan that's more hungry for them. If you're a grunt looking for a job, it is ALWAYS a seller's market.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on February 13, 2008, 11:38:13 AM
Average obsidian/glass miner: 2000 'sid a week.

You guys keep saying that, but I think you're talking about the average dwarf Vivaduan with "absolutely incredible" strength.  The amount I've been able to mine in the past hasn't been much more than enough to recoup the water cost.

Obviously I'm doing something wrong. But, if this is a career meant primarily to keep newbies alive, it probably oughtn't be too much harder than it already is.

Quote from: brytta.leofa on February 13, 2008, 01:46:30 PM

Quote from: Qzzrbl on February 13, 2008, 11:38:13 AM
Average obsidian/glass miner: 2000 'sid a week.

You guys keep saying that, but I think you're talking about the average dwarf Vivaduan with "absolutely incredible" strength.  The amount I've been able to mine in the past hasn't been much more than enough to recoup the water cost.

Obviously I'm doing something wrong. But, if this is a career meant primarily to keep newbies alive, it probably oughtn't be too much harder than it already is.

I've done it with a burglar with only above-average stats.... Yep, you're doing it wrong. 

1,500 a year is "pay in principle".

The pay "in fact" generally is pretty spotty. Sometimes characters can go for in-game years without it. Some characters even make it a point of pride not to take their pay from a GMH.

Quote from: brytta.leofa on February 13, 2008, 01:46:30 PM
You guys keep saying that, but I think you're talking about the average dwarf Vivaduan with "absolutely incredible" strength.  The amount I've been able to mine in the past hasn't been much more than enough to recoup the water cost.

Wow, just.. Wow.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on February 13, 2008, 12:37:01 PM
1500 -is- the typical yearly salary for this kind of job, and I'd say that's pretty much the starting wage in most clans, because any noble/merchant/templar who doesn't want to pay that much to an aide/crafter/hunter is going to lose that character to Kadius/Salarr.

Wow. None of my clanned PC's, and I've had a bunch, ever earned more than 900 a year, and one started with 100 a month. They were all aides to nobles or merchants. The only one with a really high salary was my bastard noble. I haven't played in many of the clans, though, and never a crafter.

Quote from: Akaramu on February 13, 2008, 03:27:20 PM
Wow. None of my clanned PC's, and I've had a bunch, ever earned more than 900 a year, and one started with 100 a month. They were all aides to nobles or merchants. The only one with a really high salary was my bastard noble. I haven't played in many of the clans, though, and never a crafter.

And that's why the merchant clans end up with so many more employees. They pay better wages, they offer more freedom, and they don't generally require a lot of propriety or politics from the player.

When I played my noble and was just starting out and therefore had not very much coin at all, I told my new employees that I would be starting them at a low wage and increasing their wage and/or giving bonuses based on how -their- performance affected -my- performance. I would like to see more of this done. A competent, long-term aide to a merchant/noble/templar who is significantly bettering their employer's position should be rewarded for that. Earning 900 'sid a year or less when you're busting your ass for that noble/templar...while watching Amos the Kadian hunter blow the massive extra quantities of 'sid he's got from his fat salary and the side work his employer lets him do...is both OOCly discouraging and ICly jarring.

Sure, it's ICly "an honor" to have those positions. But honor doesn't pay rent.

Of course, then there's the fact that indies can make almost infinitely more. Which is a whole 'nother frustration.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on February 13, 2008, 03:44:31 PM
When I played my noble and was just starting out and therefore had not very much coin at all, I told my new employees that I would be starting them at a low wage and increasing their wage and/or giving bonuses based on how -their- performance affected -my- performance. I would like to see more of this done. A competent, long-term aide to a merchant/noble/templar who is significantly bettering their employer's position should be rewarded for that. Earning 900 'sid a year or less when you're busting your ass for that noble/templar...while watching Amos the Kadian hunter blow the massive extra quantities of 'sid he's got from his fat salary and the side work his employer lets him do...is both OOCly discouraging and ICly jarring.

Absolutely agreed. Equally, good advice.

Quote from: brytta.leofa on February 13, 2008, 01:46:30 PM

Quote from: Qzzrbl on February 13, 2008, 11:38:13 AM
Average obsidian/glass miner: 2000 'sid a week.

You guys keep saying that, but I think you're talking about the average dwarf Vivaduan with "absolutely incredible" strength.  The amount I've been able to mine in the past hasn't been much more than enough to recoup the water cost.

Obviously I'm doing something wrong. But, if this is a career meant primarily to keep newbies alive, it probably oughtn't be too much harder than it already is.

You're doing it wrong. It's really not difficult to do right, and it's not an exaggeration to say that a determined 'sid miner can be richer than a GMH agent/junior noble.

Which begs the question.. does doing it "right" involve ignoring reality constraints?

Quote from: a strange shadow on February 13, 2008, 04:48:07 PM
Which begs the question.. does doing it "right" involve ignoring reality constraints?

Do you mean reality constraints like working during daytime, taking some days off, watching for aggro creatures and raiders, being careful of personal safety, etc? Or do you mean "making sure not to make more coin than a junior GMH agent"?

I'm 100% certain that it's possible to play realistically (in terms of response to the environment) as an indie 'side miner or hunter and still make VASTLY more money than most other characters. It's not ignoring reality to have the right equipment and knowledge of what to do to maximize efforts.