Average spending power

[spicemustflow]

Can someone tell me (or point me to a doc discussing it, I tried to find but failed) what is an average spending power of a Zalanthan commoner, noble etc. I had a problem with charging ICly for various services. Didn't know what amount to ask, so I was pulling it out of my ass and was noticing some people didn't have problem parting with a sum large enough to rent them a place to stay for a in-game week or two for some stupid service (like sex ). Obviously, only later I found out the apartment prices. For example Bynn charges 300 sid for an entry fee, but somewhere I read that Bynn is full of desperate people who join the army to risk their lives because they have lost their jobs or so.

[Gimfalisette]

Average VNPC city-bound commoner: 250 'sid per year (can't remember where I saw this now, but it's in line with stuff I've seen in game with taxes and such)

Average soldier: 250 - 750 per year salary. (Everyone knows that soldiers make terrible wages, and yet live reasonably well due to bribes and corruption.)

Average clanned commoner grunt: 1500 per year (hunters with Kadius, Salarr, etc). More if they have an arrangement with their employer to also craft things and get part of the profit.

Indie merchant or hunter or grebber: Totally dependent on their own work ethic. It's a bit out of whack with the world and the docs, but this type of character typically has a lot of coin if they've been around very long at all.

Average GMH merchant/agent: Probably entirely depends on how hard they work to make deals. Sky's the limit; a merchant potentially could be doing deals in the 20-100k range for their House, and they get some portion of that.

Average noble: Depends on their stipend from their House, which probably depends on their performance in the eyes of their superiors, rank of their House, and so on. Could also include profits from deals they've cut. Could be almost nothing, could be a lot. A noble will never want to look like a penny-pincher, but they're not necessarily unending founts of coin, either.

Average templar: Depends on their effectiveness in suppressing crime, making deals, garnering bribes, etc. Could be almost nothing, could be a lot. Same as for nobles.

So at the higher levels of the game, in roles with more power, a LOT of spending power is dependent on the effectiveness of the character in their role.

[Lizzie]

All of this is in addition to actual legitimate bonuses provided by the clan/boss.

So the independent unclanned group of hunters might not be making a very good salary, but they're raking in the dough because their boss gives them a healthy cut on the profits he makes selling the raw materials to all the coded merchant houses in the city.

Or that low-ranking grunt who's only making 250 sids a month could -also- be making an additional 500 sids a month average for being extra helpful, doing more than his minimum job requirement, helping with recruiting, taking extra risks on behalf of his clan, etc. etc. Or maybe he's just getting free raw materials so he can craft stuff for his clan and for his own profits. Or it could be he is given an apartment in the city furthest from his clan's base, to use as a semi-headquarters while he's up there.

It really and truly depends on both the character in question, and the clan he's in. Add in the character of the guy's boss, and you have a pretty healthy mix to provide with a varied spending power that spans from one extreme to the other.

[brytta.leofa]

Average soldier: 250 - 750 per year salary. (Everyone knows that soldiers make terrible wages, and yet live reasonably well due to bribes and corruption.)

I think that should be per month.

[staggerlee]

Just a small aside, it's worth considering that some organizations also provide varying degrees of room and board that are going to affect your numbers somewhat, as well as equipment, clothing and various forms of axillary support.   All of which affect how much of your income is disposal.

Of course, social status is even more complicated.

[Gimfalisette]

Average soldier: 250 - 750 per year salary. (Everyone knows that soldiers make terrible wages, and yet live reasonably well due to bribes and corruption.)

I think that should be per month.

No, I meant per year, because I was lumping together the city-states.

Also what Lizzie says is quite true. No matter the job a character is in, s/he can make extra if they are diligent.

varying degrees of room and board that are going to affect your numbers somewhat, as well as equipment, clothing and various forms of axillary support.   All of which affect how much of your income is disposal.

This is true, but most characters will like to have an apartment of their own after an IC year or two, because it's nice to have that extra place for privacy from the clan, storing the stuff that doesn't fit in your locker, entertaining non-clannie friends, etc. In Allanak especially that is a large expense for clanned characters. (Reasonably secure apartments are MUCH cheaper in Tuluk.)

[jstorrie]

Zalanthan PCs, though, tend to be significantly more wealthy; many potential expenses are abstracted out for playability's sense, and it's not difficult to bring in a fair amount of cash even if it's on the side of a full-time day job.

[spicemustflow]

Thanks, now I get the idea.

[Akaramu]

Average clanned commoner grunt: 1500 per year (hunters with Kadius, Salarr, etc). More if they have an arrangement with their employer to also craft things and get part of the profit.

1500 sounds like very very much to me, especially if you consider all the VNPCs that will get hired for uninteresting, uneventful jobs that PC's don't do. I'd think the free food, water and a safe place to sleep is already considered a big part of their payment from clans (maybe with the exception of crafters). PCs get more because they are special. A PC aide that gets paid 400 sid per month would be pretty established, appreciated and well off, imho.

[Fathi]

Average clanned commoner grunt: 1500 per year (hunters with Kadius, Salarr, etc). More if they have an arrangement with their employer to also craft things and get part of the profit.

1500 sounds like very very much to me, especially if you consider all the VNPCs that will get hired for uninteresting, uneventful jobs that PC's don't do. I'd think the free food, water and a safe place to sleep is already considered a big part of their payment from clans (maybe with the exception of crafters). PCs get more because they are special. A PC aide that gets paid 400 sid per month would be pretty established, appreciated and well off, imho.

Which is generally why jobs with the Great Merchant Houses and aideship to established nobles are considered insanely sought-after positions.

PC attitudes may not always reflect this, but I think it's safe to say that Joe VNPC Commoner the Salt Grebber/Dung Sweeper would be jealous indeed over people who'd managed to garner positions like that.

[X-D]

Gimf is correct.

Besides, you have to remember she's including making coin on the side or through arrangement.

[Akaramu]

I wouldn't consider making coin 'on the side' as part of the AVERAGE clanned Joe's yearly income. PCs yes, but they are special.

I still disagree that 1500 is average taking into account NPCs and VNPCs. But meh, it's not important enough to argue over. 

[Qzzrbl]

Average VNPC city-bound commoner: 250 'sid per year (can't remember where I saw this now, but it's in line with stuff I've seen in game with taxes and such)

Average soldier: 250 - 750 per year salary. (Everyone knows that soldiers make terrible wages, and yet live reasonably well due to bribes and corruption.)

Average clanned commoner grunt: 1500 per year (hunters with Kadius, Salarr, etc). More if they have an arrangement with their employer to also craft things and get part of the profit.

Indie merchant or hunter or grebber: Totally dependent on their own work ethic. It's a bit out of whack with the world and the docs, but this type of character typically has a lot of coin if they've been around very long at all.

Average GMH merchant/agent: Probably entirely depends on how hard they work to make deals. Sky's the limit; a merchant potentially could be doing deals in the 20-100k range for their House, and they get some portion of that.

Average noble: Depends on their stipend from their House, which probably depends on their performance in the eyes of their superiors, rank of their House, and so on. Could also include profits from deals they've cut. Could be almost nothing, could be a lot. A noble will never want to look like a penny-pincher, but they're not necessarily unending founts of coin, either.

Average templar: Depends on their effectiveness in suppressing crime, making deals, garnering bribes, etc. Could be almost nothing, could be a lot. Same as for nobles.

So at the higher levels of the game, in roles with more power, a LOT of spending power is dependent on the effectiveness of the character in their role.

Average obsidian/glass miner: 2000 'sid a week.

[Malken]

Average obsidian/glass miner: 2000 'sid a week.

After paying the rent, the daily prostitute and your two favorite courtesans.

[Gimfalisette]

Average clanned commoner grunt: 1500 per year (hunters with Kadius, Salarr, etc). More if they have an arrangement with their employer to also craft things and get part of the profit.

1500 sounds like very very much to me, especially if you consider all the VNPCs that will get hired for uninteresting, uneventful jobs that PC's don't do. I'd think the free food, water and a safe place to sleep is already considered a big part of their payment from clans (maybe with the exception of crafters). PCs get more because they are special. A PC aide that gets paid 400 sid per month would be pretty established, appreciated and well off, imho.

For the most part I was talking about PCs as "average clanned commoner grunt." VNPCs and NPCs are not going to pay the OP for whatever service/goods it is that s/he is looking to negotiate on ICly. 1500 -is- the typical yearly salary for this kind of job, and I'd say that's pretty much the starting wage in most clans, because any noble/merchant/templar who doesn't want to pay that much to an aide/crafter/hunter is going to lose that character to Kadius/Salarr. We can talk about what the "game economy" is and be nice and theoretical all day long, but the truth is that PC minions are in high demand and if the salary and other job conditions don't suit them, they'll go to another clan that's more hungry for them. If you're a grunt looking for a job, it is ALWAYS a seller's market.

[brytta.leofa]

Average obsidian/glass miner: 2000 'sid a week.

You guys keep saying that, but I think you're talking about the average dwarf Vivaduan with "absolutely incredible" strength.  The amount I've been able to mine in the past hasn't been much more than enough to recoup the water cost.

Obviously I'm doing something wrong. But, if this is a career meant primarily to keep newbies alive, it probably oughtn't be too much harder than it already is.

[Qzzrbl]

Average obsidian/glass miner: 2000 'sid a week.

You guys keep saying that, but I think you're talking about the average dwarf Vivaduan with "absolutely incredible" strength.  The amount I've been able to mine in the past hasn't been much more than enough to recoup the water cost.

Obviously I'm doing something wrong. But, if this is a career meant primarily to keep newbies alive, it probably oughtn't be too much harder than it already is.

I've done it with a burglar with only above-average stats.... Yep, you're doing it wrong. 

[Salt Merchant]

1,500 a year is "pay in principle".

The pay "in fact" generally is pretty spotty. Sometimes characters can go for in-game years without it. Some characters even make it a point of pride not to take their pay from a GMH.

[Malken]

You guys keep saying that, but I think you're talking about the average dwarf Vivaduan with "absolutely incredible" strength.  The amount I've been able to mine in the past hasn't been much more than enough to recoup the water cost.

Wow, just.. Wow.

[Akaramu]

1500 -is- the typical yearly salary for this kind of job, and I'd say that's pretty much the starting wage in most clans, because any noble/merchant/templar who doesn't want to pay that much to an aide/crafter/hunter is going to lose that character to Kadius/Salarr.

Wow. None of my clanned PC's, and I've had a bunch, ever earned more than 900 a year, and one started with 100 a month. They were all aides to nobles or merchants. The only one with a really high salary was my bastard noble. I haven't played in many of the clans, though, and never a crafter.

[Gimfalisette]

Wow. None of my clanned PC's, and I've had a bunch, ever earned more than 900 a year, and one started with 100 a month. They were all aides to nobles or merchants. The only one with a really high salary was my bastard noble. I haven't played in many of the clans, though, and never a crafter.

And that's why the merchant clans end up with so many more employees. They pay better wages, they offer more freedom, and they don't generally require a lot of propriety or politics from the player.

When I played my noble and was just starting out and therefore had not very much coin at all, I told my new employees that I would be starting them at a low wage and increasing their wage and/or giving bonuses based on how -their- performance affected -my- performance. I would like to see more of this done. A competent, long-term aide to a merchant/noble/templar who is significantly bettering their employer's position should be rewarded for that. Earning 900 'sid a year or less when you're busting your ass for that noble/templar...while watching Amos the Kadian hunter blow the massive extra quantities of 'sid he's got from his fat salary and the side work his employer lets him do...is both OOCly discouraging and ICly jarring.

Sure, it's ICly "an honor" to have those positions. But honor doesn't pay rent.

Of course, then there's the fact that indies can make almost infinitely more. Which is a whole 'nother frustration.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

When I played my noble and was just starting out and therefore had not very much coin at all, I told my new employees that I would be starting them at a low wage and increasing their wage and/or giving bonuses based on how -their- performance affected -my- performance. I would like to see more of this done. A competent, long-term aide to a merchant/noble/templar who is significantly bettering their employer's position should be rewarded for that. Earning 900 'sid a year or less when you're busting your ass for that noble/templar...while watching Amos the Kadian hunter blow the massive extra quantities of 'sid he's got from his fat salary and the side work his employer lets him do...is both OOCly discouraging and ICly jarring.

Absolutely agreed. Equally, good advice.

[Mood]

Average obsidian/glass miner: 2000 'sid a week.

You guys keep saying that, but I think you're talking about the average dwarf Vivaduan with "absolutely incredible" strength.  The amount I've been able to mine in the past hasn't been much more than enough to recoup the water cost.

Obviously I'm doing something wrong. But, if this is a career meant primarily to keep newbies alive, it probably oughtn't be too much harder than it already is.

You're doing it wrong. It's really not difficult to do right, and it's not an exaggeration to say that a determined 'sid miner can be richer than a GMH agent/junior noble.

[a strange shadow]

Which begs the question.. does doing it "right" involve ignoring reality constraints?

[Gimfalisette]

Which begs the question.. does doing it "right" involve ignoring reality constraints?

Do you mean reality constraints like working during daytime, taking some days off, watching for aggro creatures and raiders, being careful of personal safety, etc? Or do you mean "making sure not to make more coin than a junior GMH agent"?

I'm 100% certain that it's possible to play realistically (in terms of response to the environment) as an indie 'side miner or hunter and still make VASTLY more money than most other characters. It's not ignoring reality to have the right equipment and knowledge of what to do to maximize efforts.

[Vanth]

The staff has all the wages for the clans down in a doc, so I'm gonna go all Gimfalisette on you guys and lay down some numbers.

The average entry-level wage for commoner PCs is 133/month.  The range is from 0-350.  This is weighted downward because for a number of clans, the first year is unpaid.

The average top-level wage for commoner PCs is 542/month.  The range is from 0-1200. (0 for clans like the Byn, where there is no set wage, you have to earn it on contracts)

Just for fun...the average wage for merchant house family members, nobles, and templars is 1513/month.  The range is from 0 to 3333.  Again, this can be added to by bribes, sales commissions, etc.

[Southie]

Are those monthly wages, or yearly?

If my character is making below the average wages, can I send a complaint to the Zalanthan Better Business Bureau? Maybe an Allanaki Workers Union?

[Gimfalisette]

...so I'm gonna go all Gimfalisette on you guys and lay down some numbers.

I think my work here is done. I'm an adverb now. Maybe even a verb? "I gimf, you gimf, she gimfs, they gimf"...

Code Select Expand


The tall, muscular man says, in sirihish:
      "Don't gimf me, bro!"


[jstorrie]

Evidence that the Zalanthan class divide has much more to do with authority and social capital than pure wealth, then–the guys at the top only make ten times what the guys at the bottom do!

[Mood]

Which begs the question.. does doing it "right" involve ignoring reality constraints?

It is completely possible to make a shit-ton of coin by working from dawn to high sun five days per week.

[touringCompl3t3]

I don't really know enough about game economics to answer this post satisfactorily, but I really like the original poster's question.  Very thought-provoking.

[jstorrie]

Which begs the question.. does doing it "right" involve ignoring reality constraints?

It is completely possible to make a shit-ton of coin by working from dawn to high sun five days per week.

Hell, it's completely possible to make a shit-ton of coin by working an hour a day two days a week, in Arm. Some professions (notably hunting) can be high-risk/low-profit, but the average City Guy Inside The Walls job can get almost any player character very wealthy.

(Also it doesn't 'beg the question.' That's not what that phrase means.)

[FuSoYa]

The average entry-level wage for commoner PCs is 133/month.  The range is from 0-350.  This is weighted downward because for a number of clans, the first year is unpaid.

The reality of this though is that they can only afford to get a couple of drinks a month.... yet many people should be able to afford to be lushes in their spare-time even on a shitty wage.

Just a thought. 

Brandon

P.S.  My character makes plenty of coin just know that when I haven't I wish I could enjoy a nice cheap ale.

[Maybe42or54]

In my perfect world I envision shop owners/apartment owners/Johnny Law/etc to be more biased than now.
In my world, even though an independent whatever would make vastly more than their clanned counterpart, their clanned counterpart would get better deals, pay less rent, pay less in bribes, etc..

Why would shop owners/apartment owners/the Law charge more? This is because the shop owner knows that by giving the discount to the clanned character, they themselves would look better and they know they could get repeat business because your clanned character has a steady income.
The apartment owner would charge the unclanned person more rent as the unclanned pc is probably going to short them on the next month, or tear the place up, or die, so the apartment owner wants to get the 'sid up front to repair the unclanned character's damage.
etc...

Right now, as I've said before, all the NPCs are just too unbiased.

[Marauder Moe]

...so I'm gonna go all Gimfalisette on you guys and lay down some numbers.

I think my work here is done. I'm an adverb now. Maybe even a verb? "I gimf, you gimf, she gimfs, they gimf"...

They should make you a spell word.

Code Select Expand

>cast 'kral un vivadu threl gimf' Amos
Mist swirls around you in response to your call.

You utter the incantation 'kral un vivadu threl gimf'
You sense that the tall, muscular man has consumed 12.39 liters of water in the past week.
You sense that the tall, muscular man's average weekly water consumption is 15.90 liters.
You sense that the tall, muscular man's lowest weekly water consumption was 6.22 liters.
You sense that the tall, muscular man's highest weekly water consumption was 27.04 liters.

[Akaramu]

I love Moe. 

emote gives him some sugar.

[Marauder Moe]

 

[Gimfalisette]

That idea is so sexy I can barely contemplate it.

[aruna]

(Also it doesn't 'beg the question.' That's not what that phrase means.)

More recently, to beg the question has been used by some as a synonym for "to raise the question", or to indicate that "the question really ought to be addressed". For example, "This year's budget deficit is half a trillion dollars. This begs the question: how are we ever going to balance the budget?" This usage is often criticized by proponents of the traditional meaning, but has nonetheless come into sufficiently widespread use that it is now the most common use of the term.

Sorry for the derail, but I couldn't help myself.

[staggerlee]

(Also it doesn't 'beg the question.' That's not what that phrase means.)

More recently, to beg the question has been used by some as a synonym for "to raise the question", or to indicate that "the question really ought to be addressed". For example, "This year's budget deficit is half a trillion dollars. This begs the question: how are we ever going to balance the budget?" This usage is often criticized by proponents of the traditional meaning, but has nonetheless come into sufficiently widespread use that it is now the most common use of the term.

Sorry for the derail, but I couldn't help myself.

This should be a proper example of that little linguistic cul-de-sac:


Independents make an enormous amount of money gathering salt and obsidian, roughly equivalent to four times what an average clanned character makes. 
Clanned characters should make more money than unclanned characters for the same amount of effort.
Therefore, there should be additional penalties to that method of gathering resources, or it's sale value should be reduced.

Note: I don't actually necessarily subscribe to these views, I'm just further derailing. I apologize.

[Barzalene]

The average entry-level wage for commoner PCs is 133/month.  The range is from 0-350.  This is weighted downward because for a number of clans, the first year is unpaid.

The reality of this though is that they can only afford to get a couple of drinks a month.... yet many people should be able to afford to be lushes in their spare-time even on a shitty wage.

Just a thought. 

Brandon

P.S.  My character makes plenty of coin just know that when I haven't I wish I could enjoy a nice cheap ale.

Maybe instead of getting more money there should be something less expensive around to drink And perhaps it should be less appetizing in some way. Like... ripple!

[Maybe42or54]

I think clanned characters should just be charged less.

[Mood]

The average entry-level wage for commoner PCs is 133/month.  The range is from 0-350.  This is weighted downward because for a number of clans, the first year is unpaid.

The reality of this though is that they can only afford to get a couple of drinks a month.... yet many people should be able to afford to be lushes in their spare-time even on a shitty wage.

Just a thought. 

Brandon

P.S.  My character makes plenty of coin just know that when I haven't I wish I could enjoy a nice cheap ale.

Maybe instead of getting more money there should be something less expensive around to drink And perhaps it should be less appetizing in some way. Like... ripple!

Please, no more of this 15 'sid per ale, 90 'sid per glass of wine shit. It's ridiculous.