I want to remind players of noble characters in Allanak of the Rennick Auboretum. Its in the same Circle as the Trader's, and vagrants are simply not allowed inside. The disdain you may feel when in attendance at the Trader's simply does not exist within this place.

The Trader's is a mingling place for the general and cleaner portion of the population, where they can find jobs with nobles and say that they sat at the same table as a Templar. You should try using it as such, indy merchants and clean house soldiers, etc. It's not -that- highclass. I mean, it has a breed server.

The Gaj is for the vagrants and the Rest of you people. It's just fine.

^{This is a suggestion to aleviate the issues we had when the third tavern lost its charm.}

A-men. More people in the Aboretum!

Alternatively, you nobles could just rebuild the tavern.

How may I determine whether my character is a vagrant? and obtain an objective evaluation of his cleanliness?

Quote from: brytta.leofa on January 10, 2008, 02:56:47 PM
How may I determine whether my character is a vagrant? and obtain an objective evaluation of his cleanliness?

Do you wear a silver ring?

Agree with 7DV.

Quote from: brytta.leofa on January 10, 2008, 02:56:47 PM
How may I determine whether my character is a vagrant? and obtain an objective evaluation of his cleanliness?

If your PC is uncertain as to the answer of that question, then your PC is a vagrant.

I also agree with 7dv, though I haven't played in Allanak in a long time.

While this is a grand idea, I'd like to ask for clarification and/or suggest something, as a way to ensure that people don't end up isolating themselves...

If someone was to stand outside the arboretum, and "shout" something, how deep inside would people hear the shout? So like if I was Joe Kadius's aide, and had Lady Tor's order and knew she was in there, but she obviously has her barrier on because Susie Mindbender's been bothering her lately, would we simply not get a chance to meet up? And then she'd get all mad because Kadius never delivers their order, and Kadius would get all mad because she constantly holes herself up in an -inaccessable to commoners- area and she still owes them for the balance of the order...

I think, in summery as long as this arboretum isn't completely inaccessable, that is to say, if there is -some- way people outside can communicate with people inside without having to rely on the Way if they're standing right outside the door - like a doorbell - they have those in Tuluk somewhere, not sure how deep in the buildings those doorbells reach but at least they have them.

This place seems to have lost its popularity after the number of active Allanaki nobles dwindled to an amount that you could count on one hand and still have two fingers left. Noone, and especially not nobles who sometimes struggle enough to find meaningful interaction, are going to readily spend their time in a place where they are very likely to sit for entire days without encountering anybody. Not to mention the fact that this place seems woefully inept at security, leaving it perhaps the most adequate locale for an assassination, and - as LoD pointed out - the utter isolation due to the fact that commoners are strictly prohibited from entering.

The point was to turn the Trader's Inn into the reincarnation of the Barrel, as far as a common meeting ground. The point was also to point out that people considered as Scum -can- be in the Trader's without Nobles kicking them out, something personafied by the breed that works there.

However, Troicha gave me an idea.

I think the point wasn't to get people out of Traders, but to get them in.  I mean hell, it is called the Trader's Inn, not the noble palace.  I think a stigma attached to the Trader's developed years ago such that people feel that if you are not a noble or waiting on a noble, you shouldn't be there. 

Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure that anyone who is decently dressed is welcome to sit around and shoot the shit there.  When I say decent, it doesn't have to be silk.  It could just be linen that isn't dirty.  Junior merchants, independent merchants, clean cut house guards, and any moderately wealthy commoner would all be welcome to come and hang out.  A Bynner might not be welcomed to hang out there for too long as his regular drinking hole, but he certainly can step in on business without being decapitated.  I personally think that an aspiring n00b merchant fresh out of character creation with a couple hundred thrown into his clothing would be perfectly suited for the Trader's and not raise an eyebrow.

Personally, I have seen a fair number of people that come to hang out in the Gaj after hours that probably would be better suited for the Trader's.  Both are fully accessible to these people, but I imagine a nice clean aid would find the Gaj on dirty and slightly more violent then they would like.  The Gaj is the kind of place where someone is more then likely going to dump an ale in your lap on accident or on purpose.  The Trader's is like hanging out at a swank bar.  Just because the local rich elite show up doesn't mean a guy making 60,000 and who can manage a collared shirt can't hang out there too.  The Gaj is more like a Boston Irish bar on Irish drinking songs night (I am looking at you Squealing Pig Tavern).  People will be wasted, throwing up, singing and bellowing loudly, and you can easily get into a fight over nothing.

Bingo.

The reason you ever see desirable people in the Gaj is because if they are not there, it is utterly boring to be in a tavern at all. Utterly. That is obviously a OOC standpoint, but it is a factor. Why do you walk past the Trader's day after day and hardly see anyone in there? Because no one is there to begin with. I have personally sat in the Trader's for RL hours on end and seen one or two people, on some days, the entire time I am there.

Should some people get kicked out of the Trader's? Of course, but not because they just happen to be a breed or somebody who is not an Aide.

If Nobles want a place to be free of troublesome elements, they have it. Templars are capable of tucking soldiers in the Noble's hangout if they think about it, so security is really not that much of a concern. Staff could even reset some soldiers in there.

Personally, I always thought the Barrel should have been a visitor's center, not the place it became.

One of the reasons you probably never see many traders in the Trader's is because the place doesn't carry with it the ability to conveniently multitask like the Gaj/Barrel does/did.

A House merchant going into a tavern probably isn't there just to drink and make gossip--they're looking for employees, looking to connect with people who have placed orders so they can be delivered, and they're also looking for new customers. In the Gaj, chances are Joe Kadius can find a few would-be hunter types that he wouldn't be able to attempt to hire if he was doing all his business from the Trader's because the vast majority of the playerbase just doesn't go there.

An independent merchant probably won't be feeling as much of the pressure to keep hiring people as a House merchant would, but in the indie's case, his whole livelihood depends on being able to connect with PCs and make or deliver them things in a timely fashion. If he's going to meet a noble and two aides in the Trader's versus a whole slew of commoners in the Gaj or Barrel, he's going to reject a bunch of potential customers/contacts in order to attempt wooing the purse of a noble who may or may not decide to do business with him if he chooses the Trader's.

Quote from: Rindan on January 10, 2008, 07:08:23 PM
I think the point wasn't to get people out of Traders, but to get them in.  I mean hell, it is called the Trader's Inn, not the noble palace.  I think a stigma attached to the Trader's developed years ago such that people feel that if you are not a noble or waiting on a noble, you shouldn't be there. 

I don't think it was a stigma so much as the common crowd finding it to be a toxic environment once Templars and nobles starting hanging out there.

I remember one incident where a merchant was sitting, minding his own business. A bored noble lady summoned him over and demanded to see his wares. When she wasn't pleased with the selection, she nearly had him beaten.

You can argue, "so what, it's some fun rp, right?" and to an extent it's true. A lot of players still instinctively try to protect their beloved characters, though.

The arboretum is supposed to be limited to Nobility and their servants, and whoever they bring with them.

This led to some weird things, though, I saw it being used less due to at one point in time, no one but nobles and templars being able to go in.  As noted, this makes it so isolated that NO ONE can get a hold of you without asking a templar or noble to act like a messenger, which is not a good idea.  Dunno if it's been fixed to allow acknowledged house servants to go to meet with their employers yet.

However boring, the isolation is something the nobility would in all likelihood desire.  With the Trader's acting as a step down, the Arboretum is a true VIP establishment, free of most of the worries of the common city.  A noble sitting in the Trader's instead of here could very well be viewed as 'open for business', while one in the Arboretum is 'select, distinguished, or invited company and business only'.

When I played a noble in Allanak, I started off using it, but ended up not using it at all due to the fact that...well...like you brought up...NO ONE uses it.  Kind of like the Tor Academy.  A social establishment, but one that no one ever uses despite being advertised.

Quote from: Lizzie on January 10, 2008, 04:48:57 PM
While this is a grand idea, I'd like to ask for clarification and/or suggest something, as a way to ensure that people don't end up isolating themselves...

If someone was to stand outside the arboretum, and "shout" something, how deep inside would people hear the shout? So like if I was Joe Kadius's aide, and had Lady Tor's order and knew she was in there, but she obviously has her barrier on because Susie Mindbender's been bothering her lately, would we simply not get a chance to meet up? And then she'd get all mad because Kadius never delivers their order, and Kadius would get all mad because she constantly holes herself up in an -inaccessable to commoners- area and she still owes them for the balance of the order...

Speaking as a former player of an Allanaki noble, my character used to take people (servants/romantic interests/business partners) to the Arboretum when she wanted a semi-public place to meet with them and didn't want the distractions/disruptions of a place like the Trader's filled with "common rabble". The Arboretum is fairly big and immersive as an environment, so it's likely people inside might not hear (and very likely would not want to hear) shouts from outside.

If a merchant or aide was shouting for my noble to come out of her peaceful seclusion in the Arboretum and interrupt her day to see them, she probably would have had the poor sap flayed or demanded someone else to do business with. Of course, she was a Borsail and a snob, so YMMV. I can't say what the current PC nobles would do. In general, though, I think of the Arboretum as an exclusive, invite-only type joint. When nobles want to be seen in public, they go to the Trader's.

Quote from: Throttle on January 10, 2008, 05:24:35 PM
This place seems to have lost its popularity after the number of active Allanaki nobles dwindled to an amount that you could count on one hand and still have two fingers left. Noone, and especially not nobles who sometimes struggle enough to find meaningful interaction, are going to readily spend their time in a place where they are very likely to sit for entire days without encountering anybody. Not to mention the fact that this place seems woefully inept at security, leaving it perhaps the most adequate locale for an assassination, and - as LoD pointed out - the utter isolation due to the fact that commoners are strictly prohibited from entering.

Your point of view somewhat makes sense, Throttle, if you consider it okay to go sit your PC in a bar for three hours (two game days) without doing anything else.  While this might be fine if you're idling while you listen to the new Lincoln Park album, it is also somewhat unrealistic.  Do nobles really sit in any bar for two days straight?

Why not go for a stroll around town, or check out your estate, or invite a Kadian over for tea, or hire a slave to perform a song or a dance for you.  Just sitting in a bar for two days straight is not only unrealistic, but is furthermore a source of playability problems.  I'm not saying this to start an argument.

Personally, I've fallen into a similar trap.  If something is boring me as a player, then it is likewise boring my character as well.

I agree with that in theory, except that sometimes the easiest way to be found is to stay in one place. You generally want to be found if you're looking for interaction. If there are established places where people are likely to end up, it simplifies things.

As has been pointed out before, a Zalanthan day != a RL day...so sitting in a bar for 2 IC days might not really be such a stretch of the imagination at all.

And really, even though there aren't any PCs in the bar, it doesn't mean the bar is dead, empty, or "boring."  Presumably, there are vNPC entertainers doing their thing, reports from virtual Arena battles coming in, vNPC gambling and trading going on.

Quote from: Synthesis on February 10, 2008, 07:56:04 PM
As has been pointed out before, a Zalanthan day != a RL day...so sitting in a bar for 2 IC days might not really be such a stretch of the imagination at all.

And really, even though there aren't any PCs in the bar, it doesn't mean the bar is dead, empty, or "boring."  Presumably, there are vNPC entertainers doing their thing, reports from virtual Arena battles coming in, vNPC gambling and trading going on.

And that doesn't mean I can't have a bored character.

I never said it did.

I was merely pointing out that it may in fact not be unreasonable for a noble (or anyone) to spend 2 IC days in a tavern.

I was just throwing that out there, more of an addition to your post, rather than a response.

Noob player, brand-new Merchant. I read the description for the Trader's Inn (um, the name itself should be a bit of a clue?). I go there and both a noble and templar wail on me. I don't much care about that part (they acted their social class after all), I'm only confused about the purpose of that bar - wouldn't the nobles' and templars' personal hangouts be in their part of town? Seems weird and confusing, as the bar isn't particularly posh from what I could see.

Since I haven't been in the high-class sectors - are there no hangouts in those areas? Or perhaps they are bored at the lack of high-class PCs?

From a merchant standpoint, I didn't see the value in hanging out with a bunch of soldiers in the seemingly roughneck Gaj. So is there no middle ground place?

Merchants, and any other commoner type are more than welcome to hang out in the Trader's. Think about it as the "middle class, or aspiring middle class" version of the Gaj.
It's a little bit cleaner and quieter, and you can be seen around your betters.  Merchants might spend time there, as well as anyone hoping to be noticed by someone important, or just people looking for a nice meal or more sober atmosphere than the Gaj offers.

However: 

Individual situation always takes precedent.  There are any number of reasons you could find trouble there, including:
-You're making too much noise/causing a disruption.
-Your ears are too point.
-You're too dirty.
-A templar/noble wants to send a message to  your patron.
-You're an independent, and a merchant house isn't impressed about you undercutting their prices.
-You were seen hanging out with rinthers, magickers, northerners, etc
-Your etiquette sucks. (This would be my guess as to what happened. You don't need to auto bow, but there are social niceties to pay attention to. You can learn to correct this ic, ask someone!)
-Any number of other reasons.

In short feel free to hang out there, but be aware that Allanak is very heirarchical, and your betters can and will abuse you at their whim, for any number of reasons.  It offsets the perks, which include looking classy, getting robbed less, and potentially getting work with nobles, among other things.  Conflict is fun.

There was a middle ground bar in Allanak up until relatively recently, when it was ransacked and destroyed. For now, the main taverns are the Gaj and the Trader's. The truly elite social classes can also use the Arboretum, if they want to be exclusive. Another often overlooked place is the Silver Ginka, though it's more of a restaurant/cafe than a tavern.

Nobles and templars do have places to hang out in the parts of town, but the problem is, that completely isolates those PCs from everyone else, so in practice they're seldom there. The Trader's is the typical place for PC nobles and templars to be, because they're accessible to PCs there.

Staggerlee's post gave a number of good reasons why you might not have recieved a warm welcome in the Trader's. Another one I'd take a look at is your character's dress and appearance. Being dressed in commoner/newbie clothes in the Trader's is sort of akin to wearing jean shorts and a t-shirt to a posh downtown restaurant. You might get yourself some nicer threads from Kadius (they don't even need to be silk, just not plain) and see if you get a better reception.

Quote from: staggerlee on March 17, 2008, 04:22:44 PM
Merchants, and any other commoner type are more than welcome to hang out in the Trader's. Think about it as the "middle class, or aspiring middle class" version of the Gaj.
It's a little bit cleaner and quieter, and you can be seen around your betters.  Merchants might spend time there, as well as anyone hoping to be noticed by someone important, or just people looking for a nice meal or more sober atmosphere than the Gaj offers.

However: 

Individual situation always takes precedent.  There are any number of reasons you could find trouble there, including:
-You're making too much noise/causing a disruption.
-Your ears are too point.
-You're too dirty.
-A templar/noble wants to send a message to  your patron.
-You're an independent, and a merchant house isn't impressed about you undercutting their prices.
-You were seen hanging out with rinthers, magickers, northerners, etc
-Your etiquette sucks. (This would be my guess as to what happened. You don't need to auto bow, but there are social niceties to pay attention to. You can learn to correct this ic, ask someone!)
-Any number of other reasons.

In short feel free to hang out there, but be aware that Allanak is very heirarchical, and your betters can and will abuse you at their whim, for any number of reasons.  It offsets the perks, which include looking classy, getting robbed less, and potentially getting work with nobles, among other things.  Conflict is fun.

Understood. I was dressed like hell and hadn't yet learned there was a "clean" command (that wasn't exactly high on the priority list as I'm still figuring out the zillion types of emotes haha).
I was also using "say" rather than directly speaking to people. So both etiquette and appearance were on par with a drunken nascar fan wearing a wife-beater. Thx for the infoz.