Quote from: "Xygax"Yeah. Clannies should get free food, clothes, water, and pay for low risk. That'd be a good benefit, let's do that.

-- X

ps -- Oh, wait. We should give them shelter and a place to put their things, too. And built-in allies.

Putting your sarcasm aside for the moment, I think your list is a given.  The question is, is that enough?  If you play a desert crawling indie, you pretty much already have that.  Clothes?  I think that varies from clan to clan as far as what "clothes" you're even getting.  In many instances, it's simply an aba with the House sigil plastered upon it.  With a bit of scavenging, any indie can go wander the less risky regions of the game and eventually encounter gear of much greater value than a single clan aba.  Shelter?  A place to put your things?  Why are so many clanned people renting their own apartments if they have these options?  That says to me that barracks and footlockers are not highly prized commodities.

I don't think there are too many indies, personally.  Most characters whom I encounter are already in another clan and, if anything, they give me less reason to interact with them.  Indies can do things for you, someone in another clan rarely can (and even less often wants to).  Having said that, I still believe that clan roles need to be made more enviable than they currently are and I don't find a single feature from your list above as overly inviting.  An indie can have all of that and more without a great deal of fuss.  The biggest problem, as I see it, is the perception of what is "a lot of money".  I believe this is greatly over exaggerated at the moment.  3,000 coins is a drop in the bucket, even for a commoner, and can be spent in but a few short moments.  I think everyone's income in game, from the lowliest crafter to the highest ranking senior noble, could easily double and still maintain realism.  It gives players things to do, it helps stimulate plotlines when you can bribe someone or send them on little missions without worrying about being able to afford a single drink at the bar when you're finished.  

Don't make indie life harder, make clan life such that it TRULY is more advantageous than any indie's life.  Make it something to be TRULY jealous about.  Because footlockers and 300 coins a month is certainly not going to have me doing any cartwheels for my employer!

As a new player, someone relatively unfamiliar with the diku codebase, setting, and dangers presented, the desert presents a considerable threat.  Death is expected to be frequent and feared - this is, yes, realistic and cohesive with the game world.

But as a player grows more familiar with the code and dangers presented outside the walls of the city, they adapt to the desert.  They can't not.  It's survival instinct not to go putting yourself into deathly situations.  Those newbie indies die because they don't know a mekillot is going to eat them in one bite to the head, because they really want to see what's in that big black hole, and because they haven't yet learned to look where they are going.

(Look at me go on. I must be procrastinating something fierce.)

The longer you play, the easier survival within this unforgiving code, pure and blessed hack and slash at its beating heart, becomes, and long life will flow from that knowledge.  It's instinctive.  You can say, that for the sake of realism, the player can decide not to know basic elements of code, sacrifice their primal and knee-jerk knowledge of the desert, in order to...die more quickly?  Not "win"? Human nature doesn't want to sabotage itself, I'm afraid.  And, since it's a game, many people, who do know that code and have learned those knee-jerk responses that keep them alive, will be willing to take the "risk" of no free food, water, or affiliation if it means sitting on more stacks of money made in a month than Snickerdoodle Salarr will ever see in his 30 days of barsitting playtime.

Not that barsitting isn't a marvelous and entertaining occupation, one I like to indulge in myself quite frequently, save the times everyone in the place wants to kill me.

Everything your average clan member has, my independent characters have had (save access to a compound).  Yes, that includes social backing, allies, and connections, and if the food and water weren't exactly "free," it was pretty damn near.  Plus, large bathtubs full of money in which to bathe every evening.  Why would I join a clan, if what Xygax listed is all I want from it?

The simple point is, people generally -don't- join clans for 300 a month and footlockers, just like some people don't play the game to "win" or for "perks" or to make bathtubs full of money.  If they were joining for the money, they wouldn't be joining.  They sign up for interaction and being social and barstools and to work their way up the ladder and for clan stories and mudsex and clan plots and togetherness and scary bosses and just their own reasons for playing the game within a structured environment, I guess.  Those are your perks, if you like.  That's why clans are valuable, because they cater to the mindset of a specific playerbase.  

But if we want to doff our hats to the crowd that wants a balance of benefits between indies and clannies (even if the current "benefits" are not specifically what many clanned want/need in their play experience of ArmageddonMud) then yes, as Pantoufle says, it would be nice for them to have some Big Damn Perks, besides the basic elements listed by Xygax.

Quote from: "Clearsighted"Just can't help adding my own 2 sids on the Byn (or really, more like a waterskin's worth in hindsight)

Quote from: "jmordetsky"Byn is rockin' right now.

Quote from: "Fathi"

I am still playing my first character, and I have to say that having them join the Byn was the best decision I've made.

And it also is far from boring, cushy and low risk like other clans are looked down upon for. The mortality rate on Byn runners and Sergeants alike is horrific. Yet not unreasonable. It just eliminates the chaff. The only thing harder, IMO, is playing a 'rinther or Southlands indie hunter. And even that is debatable. You can get by pretty easy as an indie if you learn a few tricks, but the Byn will send you into the meatgrinder repeatedly until you either become a devastating warrior or...die messily.

If you survive a year in the Byn (while playing actively, being on at least one contract or outing every few RL days) you are definitely doing something right.

If five people join at the same time, there is only a middling chance that even one will make it to Trooper status. And I feel that only the Trooper mentality really represent the Clan. You'll find that mentality in the Runners that survive to being ready for graduation too.

If you make it to Trooper, you've got it pretty good.  You're probably going to be pretty resilient (you can't just log out for two RL months) and not fall to most of the crap that will maul an indie hunter.

On the other hand...Staff LOVE to animate NPCs to have at Bynners. It balances out your heightened combat abilities when 3/4ths of the NPCs you fight are ten times more tactically adept than the vast majority of PCs. Perhaps it's because we sit around sparring all week eating free food. But you will find yourself in many exceptionally frustrating and lethal circumstances that only good leadership and instinctive teamwork will pull you out of alive. When the Byn has good, knowledgable sergeants and dedicated troopers, and promising Runners, it is really, in my opinion, the most beautiful experience in Armageddon.

There is a feeling of entitlement that comes from survival that is probably as close to a RL sense of veteran's camraderie that is possible to achieve in an online game. (Given the brutality and finality of death in Armageddon). There is certainly not a bowl of stew that I've ever eaten that I didn't feel was paid for in blood.

I really love it. The only thing that saddens me about the Byn is that when I inevitably die, I know I won't be able to play in it again for a long time, because the feelings would just be too strong and prone to being biased.

Well I can't mention what, but you know what sort of 'flee' situations I've gotten myself into... and I've somehow managed to survive. I watched a friend play the game a while and read a lot of the documentation before I played, but I owe my character's survival to my fellow Bynners.

Both IC and OOC, you guys have helped me so much with the game. I can't express my gratitude enough. And I know my character will eventually die and it makes me very sad, because I love interacting with you all.

But I think the Byn really personifies life on Zalanthas: harsh, unforgiving, fast-paced. The new blood replaces the old as those that can't hack it are remembered, but only faintly, because taking too much time to remember the past takes your focus away from staying alive.

The Byn offers so much room for character development... and I love dynamic characters. A Runner could start out as a 'Rinth rat trying to prove themselves worthy of rising above their situation... or as an innocent teenager looking for their first job away from home. And if they live through their training, they are changed.

I sound like a fangirl. Shutting up now.

Quote from: "Pantoufle"

Quote from: "Xygax"Yeah. Clannies should get free food, clothes, water, and pay for low risk. That'd be a good benefit, let's do that.

-- X

ps -- Oh, wait. We should give them shelter and a place to put their things, too. And built-in allies.

Putting your sarcasm aside for the moment, I think your list is a given.  The question is, is that enough?  If you play a desert crawling indie, you pretty much already have that.

The difference is, in a clan, you only have to sit on your ever largening ass in a bar to get clothes, water, food, shelter, and even eq. As an indie, you have to work for it, know how to play the wilds (or other people) to get the 'sid, water, food, whatever.

And yes, I know some clans require you to emote once in a while, but it's hardly the same type of peril.

The tide of clans shifts. One week, the Byn is the most popular thing ever. The next week, it's SLK. The next week it's halflings. If we announced tomorrow that mantis were open to play again, then that would be the hot new thing.

The bottom line is, if you want to populate a clan that you miss seeing populated, be the change you seek. Join up. Start recruiting. Go be the badass. But don't lament about times past. Armageddon is a dynamic entity. It's part of what makes it more entertaining than a lot of other games with a static set. Think about it.

I doubt sincerely that there are any changes that need to be made, per se, to make clans more appealing or indies less so in order for the game to succeed.

Quote from: "Djarjak"I doubt sincerely that there are any changes that need to be made, per se, to make clans more appealing or indies less so in order for the game to succeed.

Certainly not, I agree.  The game is already succeeding in spades.

But I still stand by my earlier statement.  That a lot of money is actually diddly squat.  That noblemen have brought casks of their own House wine into taverns rather than buy a goblet because they need to "save" their money. That once you overcome the learning curve, the effort required to "work" to make what a clannie is making (and then some) is little more than a walk in the park.

Over the course of time, guilds have been given more skills, greater allowances and added perks.  Clans have developed and their concepts expanded upon.  I see nothing wrong with suggesting that clan roles receive greater expenditures or perks, nothing wrong with expanding upon the privelages granted to them.  It's hardly like doing so would be far fetched.

It isn't the amount of money you have or are worth but the ease in which you make it that imbalances things.  Need another thousand for the rent on your four room place, Jinglepants Ranger?  No sweat. An hour or two playtime of killing, skinning, foraging, and chopping will get you what you need.  Laugh hard, it's a long way to the bank.

Need another thousand for that bribe, Fluffybeans Tenneshi?  Sorry, you have to wait another real life week or two for that stipend.  You can't twist the code to your immediate advantage, and have to wait for players and immortals - unpredictable creatures all.  Too bad about your plots and employees, they'll have to carry on without your money to drive them for a while.

Not to say one role is more rewarding than the other. Each bears its own obstacles - in the role of a supposedly rich person who really isn't, the frustration is of a decidedly monetary bent.

The long-lost point of my original post:

These are rhetorical questions.

How many active non-templar PCs are in the Allanaki militia? How often do you see them patrolling, taking bribes, preventing (or allowing) crimes?

How many non-noble/aide Borsail Wyvern PCs do you see? What do you ever see that clan doing? How about the Tor Scorpions? The Black Cavalry?

How many gemmed magickers working for House Oash have you seen or heard of doing anything lately?

House Salarr, anyone?

Yes, most clans go through periods of high activity, but from what I can tell that is the exception for most clans, when the exception should be periods of inactivity. Some clans like the Guild, noble Houses (not their guard companies) and Bardic Circles can do just fine with 1-3 PCs. But from what I've seen in the past 6 months or so, the clans that need 4-5 or more PCs to actually do what they're meant to do... well they practically never have that amount of active players. The playerbase is way too diluted in my opinion, with the exception of the clans I mentioned in my first post (but was, strangely, used as an argument against my point) like the Byn.

Maybe things look different from your point of view, and maybe you have a different opinion of how things should be. My opinion is that something needs to be done for those clans that need a good number of players but never seem to have them. This is not a bash at the players who lead these clans, I've had similar leadership positions and seen the utter lack of interest, despite daily efforts to get new blood into the clan, to the point where someone seeking to join is something to celebrate (until they store or quit after a while because they're still the only recruit). I'm not talking about giving the players nicer clothes, bigger lockers or better beds. I'm talking about more things to do and more non-coded benefits like, as someone else mentioned, a much clearer social distinction between indy and clanned people.

Clannies do have it good, however, in the eye of the code, they are still indies.
They get treated by the law the same way, they get treated by the shops as the same, Apartments cost the same for both, and other things.
My ideas to fix it:
Less penalties for the lesser crimes such as theft.
Harsher penalties for the harsher crimes, such as murder, trespassing, etc.
Soldiers can get clannies off the hook of lesser crimes, but to get merchant house employees, indies, T'zai Byn, you still need a templar.

What merchant wouldn't want a merchant house crafter from selling their cheap shit to them? That way, when the crafter gets better, they enjoy working with your shop and sell their higher end items to the shop.
So you could make shop owners only buy 3 things from indies and 6 or so things from clannies.

And who wouldn't want an apartment building full of the good-to-go noble commoner clannies? THey oughta chop some of the price off if they know you aren't going to be a fuck up like the 'rinther that lives right next to you.

I think that Hymwen's complaint and solution are getting tangled.  The complaint is really that 'major' clans are small.  I think the solution put forward that clans need more perks will not fix this as the clanned player stats show.  The real issue is that Armageddon simply has a lot of clans at the moment.  We have two major areas of play, two or three minor areas of play, and a handful more isolated places to play.  As far as I know, all the places where you can play have people stuffed into them.  The player base is spread thin not only physically, but also in terms of clans.  I am pretty sure that right now Armageddon has more clans with active populations then it ever has.

There really is no solution to this other then consolidation – which comes with its own problems.  I am not sure how many people remember it, but after Tuluk was wiped out the big complaint was that Allanak was bursting at the seams and that there was nowhere else to play.  I think that there is some question as to how much consolidation actually improves the situation in the short term.  Consolidation doesn't do any good if you end up pissing off all the iso-tribe lovers and they stop playing.  As much as I would love to see Tuluk burned and all iso tribes shut down so that everyone has to play in Allanak with me, I think that it is an unrealistic thing to ask and would result in a pile of pissed off players.

If I were to suggest anything that might be effective, it would be to try harder to bring iso-clans closer to the cities, limit the number of iso-clans, and have them clash more with city state populations.  Four warring desert elf tribe off in the tablelands might as well not exist as far as the rest of the non-tablelands population is concerned.  Two large warring desert elf tribes battling it out on the plains east of Tuluk or in the sands west of Allanak is something for everyone to get excited about.  The same goes for haflings.  Haflings deep in the grey forest might as well not be there as far as the rest of the players are concerned.  Haflings camped just off to the side of the north road on the other hand are very noticeable.

What he said.

Quote from: "Djarjak"The tide of clans shifts. One week, the Byn is the most popular thing ever. The next week, it's SLK. The next week it's halflings. If we announced tomorrow that mantis were open to play again, then that would be the hot new thing.

The bottom line is, if you want to populate a clan that you miss seeing populated, be the change you seek. Join up. Start recruiting. Go be the badass. But don't lament about times past. Armageddon is a dynamic entity. It's part of what makes it more entertaining than a lot of other games with a static set. Think about it.

Bingo.  At one point earlier this year when I held a leadership position I had approximately twelve subordinates under me, online at once up in Tuluk.  More than half the city's PC playing population was in said clan.  Now, without anybody dying, being kicked out or anything else, the very next week it dropped to only three of that clan on at any one given time.  Then it picked back up, then several died, then several joined, then several played, then several stopped because of real life...you get the point.  

A different clan I played in earlier this year had a small cadre of about six people that were online all the fucking time.  It was great, we had a ton of fun and people knew there was a presence in that clan.  ...  Then we all died.

Separately, it also depends on where you play.  If you are playing around low population points, you might only be crossing indies.  If you are going to bars and finding only one person there, it's possible that there are fifteen Byn back at the barracks having yet another violent orgy.  

Granted, the population is spread across a rather large number of clans, but I am still of the mind that the balance is always working itself out and has more to do with people's playtimes coinciding within a given clan and between clans and clan popularity than it does with actual game issues.