What happened to clans?

[Hymwen]

I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who has noticed a steady decline in clan populations. Even when I started less than a year ago many clans were full and active, but lately there seems to be no interest. A handful of clans are still going strong, the ones that always will, such as the Byn and House Kurac. But what happened to Merchant Houses? What happened to guard companies? What happened to criminal groups, the Arm of the Dragon, House Oash, the Black Cavalry etc.? All these clans which I remember being alive and thriving when I was new are mostly empty, with maybe one or two members who are just keeping the clan from disappearing completely.

I've played a couple of leadership PCs who were responsible for hiring people into clans, one in a Noble House's guard company and one in a Merchant House. The problem I've had is a complete lack of interest. I was approached once every 2 weeks at most with someone who wants to join, and chances are you'll lose that person again pretty soon because they're hired into an empty clan. Tavern-board posts seem to be of little to no help, and the people who are independent usually are because they want to be.

It really, really saddens me to see this. Have the real clans (this is not a noble and his aide) become unappealing for some reason? Why won't -you- play in a clan? Maybe if we all list our reasons for not liking clans, something could be changed so that an active clan is not something unusual. And no, don't call this a fad, it has been this way for like six months or more.

[spawnloser]

From what I understand, nobles are only being allowed to hire limited amounts of people...and since they have to pay their people from the money they are given (which ain't much), they have an incentive to keep hires to a minimum.  I think it's a pity.

Also, just a side note...the Black Cavalry isn't a clan, but a unit within a clan.

[Onimantu]

I refer you to the following:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23795

and

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23794

[Xygax]

Of the 58 players online right now, 5 are not in clans.  I don't think there is a problem, unless it be one of perception.

-- X

[bloodfromstone]

Personally, I think a large part of the cause is iso clans. We have desert elves, we have human nomads, we have halflings, we have rogue magickers... We have a number of clans that, for all intents and purposes, could be played on a completely different port than the City-States, and no one would know the difference. I, personally, have been of the opinion for some time that we do not have the playerbase to support iso clans at the moment. I think they're a neat idea, to think of a group of isolated players somewhere in the world, disconnected from everyone else, living out their days... But it just doesn't work right now, as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather see clans not struggling to get more than a handful of players. I'd rather see City-States not feel like ghost towns half the time...
I'm not saying that isos are the full cause, but they're definitely contributing in my mind.

As far as why I don't play in clans... Well, I do, some. Here's my basic pros and cons break down.

Clan Life
Pros
- Steady interaction (if the clan is active)
- Free and mostly safe training
- Money!
- More respect from the high ups (nobles, templars, merchants)

Cons
- Devoid of interaction (if clan is not active)
- Less excitement
- Significantly less freedom
- Insufficent respect from most (I find that a lot of 'rinthis and independants are more than willing to challenge, say, a Tor Scorpion's honor)
- Very often, your duties amount to nothing. I want to come back to this.

Indie Life
Pros
- Freedom! Jog from Allanak to Tuluk and back, if you want.
- Easier to find interaction. As an indie, you aren't upholding any one else's  honor, so you can have a drink with whatever freak you want.
- Money! You can make a shitload, if you feel like it.
- Badassitude. From my experience, smart indies can become badass much faster than rigid sparring clannies.
- Excitement. Bored? Time to hunt some gith, because you're your own (wo)man.

Cons
- More lethal lifestyle. A long lived indie is a rare thing.
- Have to worry about food/water
- No respect from high ups (a templar might just drag you to the arena because he feels like a show).
- No steady interaction, unless you form your own little click.

That is the basic run down as I see it. Now, let me go back to my final con on clannies. Very often, it seems like duties mean nothing. House guards in particular are supposed to train day in and day out, that they may serve the House's needs. Often, the House's needs are... well, training. Very often, I see posts on clan boards asking for things to do. In response, sometimes a group is gathered up to go on a patrol. Maybe they head up to Luir's. Maybe an Imm takes pity and gives them a small quest to complete. However, if the only reason you are doing something is to have something to do, you are not serving a House. Clans need active duties that have visible results to get people excited. Here are a few examples that I can think of.

- Tor: Some sort of small threat to Allanaki security. Gith scouts. Bandits killing 'Nakki miners. A group of independant northern terrorists... Who better than Allanak's most elite fighters to track down a few scattered scouting camps, ambush, and kill them?
- Borsail: An escaped mul is a dangerous thing, but it is even more so when he escaped with an important noble's servant. Tough jobs filter down to the Amber Wyverns, who will have to coordinate with the escaped slave to ensure the servant's safety until they can make a rescue and maybe even close a pinch on the mul.
- Salarr: Recent influxes of chitin have proven flimsy and fragile, impossible to work with, much less make armor out of. The last thing the merchant house should do is admit there is a problem and risk their customers going to other vendors. So the hunters will have to try to track down the source - a dwarven magicker with a focus to put Salarr out of business - and deal with it, while the merchants try to keep the important customers happy, maybe even selling flimsy armor to less important (independant) customers.

Of course, all of these things require Imm assistance. And, of course, they can't be happening all the time. But I think most clannies would like to see a few bigger plotlines occasionally to feel like their training is paying off and like they are an active and important part of the clan.

EDIT:ed to add that I am not trying to say anything negative about the current imms of clans or anything. I just think a large perception of clanlife is that you wear colors and report to people, but largely do nothing. It'd be neat to see very occasional plotlines to fill in the cracks.

[Hymwen]

Of the 58 players online right now, 5 are not in clans.  I don't think there is a problem, unless it be one of perception.

-- X

How many of these are nobles and their aide, templars, people sitting alone in one clan, or are tribe/iso clans? My point is that very few of the "public" clans are full, most clans have a leader and one or two employees and it's like that most of the time. These are clans like the Wyverns, the Tor Scorpions, the militias, House Salarr, House Kadius (although they just got a new batch of family PCs), clans that need a handful of players to do anything much, but rarely/never have more than 1-3 PCs.

I know that almost every clan I've been in has had this exact problem.

[Rhapsody of Zalanthas]

Just as an aside, the reason there may be alot of independants in the northlands is due to the partisan system that is underway...and even of the moment there aren't that many who aren't completely independant, or at least they don't last long enough to be much noticed.  :twisted:

As for the cons of clan life, it depends what role you are speaking of. Much of what applies to the cons are in regards to the martial clans / subclans. Aides have alot of freedom (in the city-state), and get involved in plenty of things to make it interesting. Kurac is just...Kurac, same goes with Byn. But personally, I'd much rather see more independants than House guards and elite members. It's not very realistic in mind when a tavern is full of scorpions or black cavalry members, and only one indepant off to the side, and it will also prevent other plots that could have been started in the city, but can't due to restrictions of duties, loyalties, and lack of potential characters.

[Xygax]

How many of these are nobles and their aide, templars, people sitting alone in one clan, or are tribe/iso clans?

While I won't offer a full breakdown, 11 of them (a huge chunk of the mud's population) are T'zai Byn.  While there are a few gypsies and halflings among the population the vast percentage of the rest are in publically visible clans (AoD, Sun Legions, etc.).  I'm sorry, but I simply couldn't disagree with you more strongly that clans are thriving right now, and the clans that are thriving are among the most representative of the sort of play I personally prefer to see (player-driven plotlines and low-magic, grit, and brutality).

-- X

[bloodfromstone]

That's good news, X. Personally, I was of the same opinion as Hymwen, but it's good to be proven wrong on some things. I'll keep my eyes out IG.

[Larrath]

It's sometimes very seasonal - I've played a leader in a clan where I had maybe 3 employees at the least, and around 12 at the most.
It depends a lot on the leaders doing recruitment themselves, and not just waiting to be approached by others.

[Cale_Knight]

11 Bynners? Holy crap.

[EvilRoeSlade]

- Salarr: Recent influxes of chitin have proven flimsy and fragile, impossible to work with, much less make armor out of. The last thing the merchant house should do is admit there is a problem and risk their customers going to other vendors. So the hunters will have to try to track down the source - a dwarven magicker with a focus to put Salarr out of business - and deal with it, while the merchants try to keep the important customers happy, maybe even selling flimsy armor to less important (independant) customers.

All Salarr needs is good players to join it.

[Clearsighted]

11 Bynners? Holy crap.

Some Bynners are purely nominal in the association.

[Vesperas]

I have to say I agree with bloodfromstone on this topic.  Very little is going to change my mind, save for either a slap in the face from a big imm or the sudden disappearance of indie's.

I think that desert elves are really fun to play, now that I've tried them out, and even will go as far as saying that they are really complimentary for certain styles of play or playing times.

But most of the desert-elf tribes are not really all that good for the game on the whole -- sure, they provide diversity of play for those who like to play d-elfs, but other than that, they just spread us out more.  If I were going to make a suggestion about the tribes, it would be to close all of them except maybe the Sun Runners or another tribe that would have close contact with other people on a regular basis.

I am still in the dark as to why halflings were ever re-opened.  Some future plot?  Curtailing to the begging of older players who remembered them from a long while back?  Either way, I have so far have yet to actually meet a PC halfling, and honestly doubt that I ever will if I were to play in the area.  I'm not trying to bitch about the decision, I just have yet to see the glorious, shining wisdom in it.

I really wish that something could be done to make independance less desireable over clan-life.  I realize that a lot of people prefer to be independant because of play times (including myself, due to now having both school and work to worry with), but even if I had all the time in the world to play Arm, I'd most definitely be an inde because:

- I could go anywhere I wanted, when I wanted.  Including zipping my butt back and forth between Nak and Tuluk in about a 2 minutes time span, or, far less than a game day.

- I could make A LOT of money in a VERY short span of time, EVEN if I did my very best to play realistically and not use the code to my advantage.  As it stands right now, I could walk right out of a certain city, pick some stuff up, walk right back in, and have a net gain that is ATLEAST equal to the MONTHLY salary of a RANKED member of a clan.  All before mid-day.

- I had the option to practice my skills at my own leisure.

- Awesome leet apartments, weapons, food, whores, and Shiny Things that even slightly more upper-class commoners couldn't afford! Yay!

And I have found, personally, that interaction is 10 times higher for independants than clanners, because you can.. well, interact with anyone.


EDITED TO ADD, AS AFTERTHOUGHT:

The only time I was pleased about seeing some sort of favortism to clanned commoners was when a certain templar was played.  On being caught doing something rather dumb (but not against any real, hard-coded laws), my PC just got a finger-wiggle-warning because she was employed.  

I'd like to see more of this, and more rigid social structure that made a much bigger impact.  I.e, greater favor given to commoners employed under large organizations or Houses than to independants and foreiners.

I'd even go as far as saying that I'd like to see foreigners who were not obviously employed by someone to get picked on far more severely and far more often when they were outside their territory.  It just makes sense... you wouldn't have any real protection, AND.. well, it's fun to pick on those dirty foreign-spies.

[Gimfalisette]

How many of these are nobles and their aide, templars, people sitting alone in one clan, or are tribe/iso clans? My point is that very few of the "public" clans are full, most clans have a leader and one or two employees and it's like that most of the time. These are clans like the Wyverns, the Tor Scorpions, the militias, House Salarr, House Kadius (although they just got a new batch of family PCs), clans that need a handful of players to do anything much, but rarely/never have more than 1-3 PCs.

I know that almost every clan I've been in has had this exact problem.

I'm not sure there's anything wrong with there being many clans with 2 to 3 PCs in them. You can have a lot of fun with a small, tight gang. For bigger endeavors, there's always hiring the Byn. Of course, you need both the leader and the members bringing fun to the table. But really...there's like 101 different things to assign PCs to do other than "train up skills." (Clans where "train up skills" is all there is to do are pitifully boring. But NO clan forces that to be the only acceptable activity.)

[spawnloser]

You're missing part of the point, Vesperas...indies may have all that freedom to make all the money they want, but they can want things that are not realistic.

[Maybe42or54]

I'd love to see some soldiers in each city-state given the power to get noble house commoners off the hook for theft and other petty crimes. Or a house negotiates discounts on all salarri/kadian gear for their house.

For instance, supposedly, as a Member of the Armed Services, I make about 24-25 thousand dollars a year. Which isn't bad, but then I found this program that adds up all the benefits that I currently have that really can't be cashed in and It says that I make over 44 thousand dollars a year, which is a lot better.

Not to mention, more than half my pay currently is untaxable money.

There needs to be benefits for Clannies in my opinion.

[Vesperas]

There needs to be benefits for Clannies in my opinion.

Hehe, one sentence to say what my entire post couldn't.

[Xygax]

Yeah.  Clannies should get free food, clothes, water, and pay for low risk.  That'd be a good benefit, let's do that.

-- X

ps -- Oh, wait.  We should give them shelter and a place to put their things, too.  And built-in allies.

[jmordetsky]

Byn is rockin' right now.

[Delirium]

You can have a lot of fun with a small, tight gang.

Quoted for truth.

[Fathi]

How many of these are nobles and their aide, templars, people sitting alone in one clan, or are tribe/iso clans?

While I won't offer a full breakdown, 11 of them (a huge chunk of the mud's population) are T'zai Byn.  While there are a few gypsies and halflings among the population the vast percentage of the rest are in publically visible clans (AoD, Sun Legions, etc.).  I'm sorry, but I simply couldn't disagree with you more strongly that clans are thriving right now, and the clans that are thriving are among the most representative of the sort of play I personally prefer to see (player-driven plotlines and low-magic, grit, and brutality).

-- X

I am still playing my first character, and I have to say that having them join the Byn was the best decision I've made.

There's almost always someone on, there's all sorts of personalities to interact and clash with... great tension, great opportunities for character growth.

Jmordetsky is right. Byn = rockin'.

[Clearsighted]

Just can't help adding my own 2 sids on the Byn (or really, more like a waterskin's worth in hindsight)

Byn is rockin' right now.

I am still playing my first character, and I have to say that having them join the Byn was the best decision I've made.

And it also is far from boring, cushy and low risk like other clans are looked down upon for. The mortality rate on Byn runners and Sergeants alike is horrific. Yet not unreasonable. It just eliminates the chaff. The only thing harder, IMO, is playing a 'rinther or Southlands indie hunter. And even that is debatable. You can get by pretty easy as an indie if you learn a few tricks, but the Byn will send you into the meatgrinder repeatedly until you either become a devastating warrior or...die messily.

If you survive a year in the Byn (while playing actively, being on at least one contract or outing every few RL days) you are definitely doing something right.

If five people join at the same time, there is only a middling chance that even one will make it to Trooper status. And I feel that only the Trooper mentality really represent the Clan. You'll find that mentality in the Runners that survive to being ready for graduation too.

If you make it to Trooper, you've got it pretty good.  You're probably going to be pretty resilient (you can't just log out for two RL months) and not fall to most of the crap that will maul an indie hunter.

On the other hand...Staff LOVE to animate NPCs to have at Bynners. It balances out your heightened combat abilities when 3/4ths of the NPCs you fight are ten times more tactically adept than the vast majority of PCs. Perhaps it's because we sit around sparring all week eating free food. But you will find yourself in many exceptionally frustrating and lethal circumstances that only good leadership and instinctive teamwork will pull you out of alive. When the Byn has good, knowledgable sergeants and dedicated troopers, and promising Runners, it is really, in my opinion, the most beautiful experience in Armageddon.

There is a feeling of entitlement that comes from survival that is probably as close to a RL sense of veteran's camraderie that is possible to achieve in an online game. (Given the brutality and finality of death in Armageddon). There is certainly not a bowl of stew that I've ever eaten that I didn't feel was paid for in blood.

I really love it. The only thing that saddens me about the Byn is that when I inevitably die, I know I won't be able to play in it again for a long time, because the feelings would just be too strong and prone to being biased.

[Wish]

But you will find yourself in many exceptionally frustrating and lethal circumstances that only good leadership and instinctive teamwork will pull you out of alive.

And the flee command, and a good amount of luck.  If the dice are with you.

Tarantula units, for great justice.

Go Byn!

[Clearsighted]

But you will find yourself in many exceptionally frustrating and lethal circumstances that only good leadership and instinctive teamwork will pull you out of alive.

And the flee command, and a good amount of luck.  If the dice are with you.

Tarantula units, for great justice.

Go Byn!

Heh. Part of that good leadership and teamwork is not getting into 'fleeing' situations. I've been in very few. One of them was an unavoidable ambush, another was ye olde mekillot, and the last was an absolutely cruel ploy by certain cunning NPCs, but it just happened tonight so I can't extrapolate on how utterly gutwrenching it was.