Quote from: "Marauder Moe"Common sense just doesn't work for me.  How are we supposed to have common sense about fantasy telepathy?

Common sense is defined as sound judgment not based on specialized knowledge[1].  It implies that even without a "specialized knowledge" of how fantasy telepathy works you can still come up with good judgements about it.

It looks like you feel that this "specialized knowledge" is required to make any decisions regarding fantasy telepathy--that common sense is not sufficient.  We disagree.  It looks like this is the fundamental disagreement here, but I think discussing the value of common sense would be fruitless, heh.

[1] thefreedictionary.com

Hmm, dictionary fencing?  Well then, if I may riposte, if "common sense" is judgement not based off specific knowledge, then it must be based off of general knowledge - knowledge that is available to anyone*.  What knowledge about the nature of Zalanthan telepathy is available to (implied: the Arm playerbase) anyone?  The docs?  The past behaviors of the playerbase?  Scifi/fantasy books, movies, and TV shows?

I did make a common sense judgement and was then told differently.


*also courtesy of thefreedictionary.com

I'm starting to feel like we're going in circles, but yes, you can use common sense to make decisions about psionics even though general knowledge doesn't include details about it.

We're going in circles because my questions aren't being answered.  

I ask what knowledge is available to anyone.  You answer yes.  Questions starting with "what" aren't supposed to be answered with "yes".

I ask how I'm supposed to know if I should accuse someone of mindbending, or how I should know if an action is likely to get me accused of mindbending.  I'm told "common sense".

I ask if you've carefully considered the game-world implications of imaging over the Way.  I'm not sure I got any answer on that one.


Anyway, my workday is over.  It's been a pleasure debating.  It's not often you staff will openly engage in such.  I look forward to round 2, if there is one.

I personally think I've said all that I have to say on the subject.  I'm sorry you don't feel all your questions were answered but I'm glad that you enjoyed getting some direct feedback.  I will, in closing, answer the question about if this has all been carefully considered by staff before being made policy.  The answer is most assuredly yes.

And 3... 2... 1...

It's not a feeling, Raesanos, you simply didn't answer my last question.  It's your perogative to not answer, of course, but I don't see what's so unreasonable about it.

I searched through the documents and helpfiles and have found exactly three that relate to psionic communication: 'help psionics', 'help contact' and 'help mindbender'.  Not a single one give any hint of how common certain profeciencies with normal psionics are.  Not one addresses how common (false or otherwise) accusations of mindbending are in the world.

I ask again: what general knowledge, available to all players, with which we can make "common sense" decisions about psionic communication, is there?

So that's it?  Nothing?

Too secret to talk about, or so obvious that one must be a raving idiot to miss it?

Presumeably, the immortals all know what mindbenders can do; exact knowledge where their powers begin and normal psionics end.  Isn't it at least a little bit possible that immortal common sense differs at least slightly from player common sense?  Also, if common sense is supposed to be at such a basic level of understanding, such a discrepency might even be hard to be aware of.

I'm not going to be partaking in any of this Way-imagry.  I have absolutely no idea at what point I should be afraid that my character is doing too much and may be in danger of being accused of psionicism.  With the lack of public guidance, that point is likely to even be different for each player.

On top of that, I don't feel comfortable playing my character accusing another either.  If it gets to that point, it's very possible that the conflict is simply a result of differing OOC sensabilities about Way usage (resulting, of course, from the lack of documentation or guidance about it).


I'm disappointed.  I suppose I'll just have to get over it, though, and hope I never get caught in such a situation.

Moe:

You -CAN- do this:

psi (with a feeling of pain so intense that can be felt through this psionic connection) I'm Dying!  Oh krath please!

You -CAN- do this:

psi (An image of the Tall, Muscular Man) This is your Target

-

Remember, there is latent psionic abilities in people.  Anything goes.  When someone accues you of being a psionicists, you can always accuse them of reading your mind.

You can say that you and your mate have such a closeness that you two feel the same things at the same times when connected psionically.

You can transmit whatever you want to.  The line of 'psionic common sense' is when you force the receiving player to do things, be that thinks, feelings, or actions.

Yes, I know I can do those things.  The OOC line is drawn at forcing things on people in Way messages.  From what the staff seems to have said, however, the IC line where your average Amos is likely to run looking for a templar screaming "Mindbender!" is not the same line.  (If I'm mistaken and it is, though, someone please say so!)

Well, here's the thing Moe.  The IC line is whatever you can get away with.

If your character is influencial, they can spread lies about anybody doing anything.  The only person who knows where the mindbender situation is relies on you and the person you're contacting.

If you send someone an image of your father dying and a gortok eating him, and that person goes to the templars and says you're a mindbender - it is exact same thing as if you send someone these lines ' my father died from a gortok '.

You're talking about IC consenquences for using a coded way of displaying information.  The thing is that characters do not all act the same and believe the same.  The IC line is -whatever- your character wants it to be, and -whatever- your character decides to push it as far as they want to push it.  It also depends on the social levels that your character lives in.  If he's a 'rinther telling a templar that a noble is a psionicists, then the templar isn't going to believe the 'rinther, no matter what.

Quote from: "mansa"If he's a 'rinther telling a templar that a noble is a psionicists, then the templar isn't going to believe the 'rinther, no matter what.

I would, that'd be killer leverage.  "Why yes, Lord Amos, I do have it from a good source that you are... psionically inclined."

And now, on topic:
The Staff has stated that sending images is okay, even in the examples given above (the exact sdesc or a general emotional feeling.  I take that to mean that you shouldn't go screaming 'Mindbender!' unless their communication goes beyond those types of things.  If they make you think, feel, or do something, they're a mindbender.  Everything else seems to be fair usage.

I would assume that everyone can tell the difference between a Wayed vision and a normal one, and that even a half-giant would be unlikely to be fooled into believing it is not mental... as that puts too much power into the hands of the psi'er.  I'm not embracing the usage of images, myself, but it has now been stated that it's okay to do so.

Lord Templar Hard Nose sends:
"(The image of a winged serpent winding around a blue goblet)  I wouldn't drink that, if I were you."

Quote from: "mansa"Well, here's the thing Moe.  The IC line is whatever you can get away with.

Assuming I got him right, Moe is not talking about IC consequences alone. He is asking what is physical norm is and what exception is, and you too are narrowing his question to what he can get away from Templar with.

Example. Everyone can fart in tavern, it's a norm. Yet chosen someone can fart and, with enough of of hard-coded or immortal support, everyone in tavern will burst in flames. So, knowing or suspecting that Zalanthans fart the same people on Earth do, with a help of Earthen common sense we draw a line between being a norm and being a powerful Krathi. The fact that miracle survivor of tavern disaster must rely upon his discretion when considering to report described incident to Templar has nothing to do with that line.

Basically, Moe asks, with regard to mindbending: what kinds of mental abilities are considered a norm, what would be considered poweremote? What mundane character is physically capable of doing and what he isn't? And you keep on telling him that everyone has latent ability to fart, so everyone can emote burning tavern all they want.

Quote from: "Eternal"The Staff has stated that sending images is okay, even in the examples given above (the exact sdesc or a general emotional feeling.  I take that to mean that you shouldn't go screaming 'Mindbender!' unless their communication goes beyond those types of things.  If they make you think, feel, or do something, they're a mindbender.  Everything else seems to be fair usage.

Not exactly: they've said it's all right from an OOC perspective.  Forcing feelings and whatnot would seem to be beyond the OOC line of acceptability.

QuoteIf you seem to others to be a 'master' of the Way, you may have some 'splaining to do, Lucy. In other words - we aren't telling you how to roleplay - but we also aren't going to interfere with the consequences of that roleplay. We are simply saying that you aren't OOCly breaking any rules.

There is a big difference being made here between OOCly OK and ICly OK, and now that I understand that, I see that the policy isn't as problematic as I'd initially thought.

Quote from: "The Staff, in so many words,"Within the boundaries of common sense, do what you want. Good luck, have fun.

/thread

Quote from: "joyofdiscord"Not exactly: they've said it's all right from an OOC perspective.  Forcing feelings and whatnot would seem to be beyond the OOC line of acceptability.

Umm... right...

Quote from: "Eternal"If they make you think, feel, or do something, they're a mindbender.

If they make you feel something, they're a mindbender.  If they send you their general emotional feelings, it's okay.

Quote from: "manonfire"

Quote from: "The Staff, in so many words,"Within the boundaries of common sense, do what you want. Good luck, have fun.

/thread

If you would bother to read what was posted, you'd know that there's almost nothing to go from as far as "common sense" is concerned.  Feel free to prove me wrong by citing some knowledge resources, though.

Maaan, this topic sure has gotten hot since I last looked at it.

I do hope I won't be overstepping my boundries with this next statement, but I think someone needs to say it, even if its a lowly newish player.

Folks, players and immortals alike... this started out as an unheated dicussion, but within in the span of six pages, all I've seen is unyielding disagreement and "dictionary-fencing."  We're not talking about brain surgery here, so there's absolutely no need to nit-pick over language that you see every single day of your life.  It's also sort of unnessessary to (perhaps inadvertantly) try to antagonize other posters (including imms), because I kind of don't want to see this topic locked.  It's one of those wonderful "hey, look, this is unclear" threads, and I like it.

It's apparent that there will -not- be any concrete documentation published concerning the differences between the common man's telepathy and the intricate powers of a psionic mastermind.  This is one of those areas where we are just going to have to be mindful of one another and make judgements about what your character would be able to do.  I'll have my way (which I described on the first page), and you'll have yours.

Here are some things that -I- plan to keep in mind in the future for all my waying:


1.)  Don't abuse sdescs.

If you choose to flash imagery of people to others, be mindful of the players you are with.  Sending someone the image of 'the blue-eyed, brown-haired man' is about the same as describing them as such by word.  OOCly, it's just a poor cop-out, and if you have seen this person well enough to send a telepathic carbon-copy of them, you ought to be able to make the image more complete than that.

2.)  Just because someone Ways different than you...

It's obvious we're all going to have a different idea about the Way now (as before).  Well, if someone Way's different than you, just respect it.  If they Way you what you would consider top seekrit info by sending you a detailed image of an object, place, or person, you the player can choose how you interpret it.  I myself will probably choose to treat it like in my "unrecallable dream" example -- recieve the images, but not be able to keep a firm grasp on them.  You know how your character's brain works.

Now, of course, there may be some instances where you may feel that sending player feedback may be prudent.  Just use your best judgement, and don't get all uber-pissy if you happen to be the person who recieved such player feedback.

3.) Keep in mind there is a difference between the common man and a psionic.

The common man can recieve and, probably with some strained effort, transmit images that they know.  The psionic is much, much more dangerous -- he can actually see what you see without you knowing!  Or can he?  Maybe he can interfere with your psionic connection with other people... and ALTER the images you send to one another?  What if that person you are psionically connected with isn't who you think it is at all?  

You can use your own character's level of personal paranoia to decide just what is "too far" in a Way message.  



DISCLAIMER:  Just because I use the word 'you', it does not mean I am trying to pose as some sort of authority.  These are rules I plan to use; you can use them, or you can ignore them and ridicule them and print them out and eat them.  They are inconclusive, do not factor in all possible scenarios, and do not take into account the mental accuity of every single person who plays Armageddon -- in short, they are just suggestive ideas.

Eternal, what I am trying to point out is that there is a zone here that is acceptable OOC but which may (or may not) cause you problems IC.  Forcing feelings is beyond the OOC line completely, in the same way that emoting flames from your eyes when not possessed of the necessary magic powers to do so is.

QuoteAnd now, on topic:
The Staff has stated that sending images is okay, even in the examples given above (the exact sdesc or a general emotional feeling. I take that to mean that you shouldn't go screaming 'Mindbender!' unless their communication goes beyond those types of things. If they make you think, feel, or do something, they're a mindbender. Everything else seems to be fair usage.

My point is that some images, for example, might be so spectacular as to cause IC consequences, up to and including screaming mindbender, which are not a transgression of the OOC prohibition:

*accompanied by a crystal clear vision of a tranquil oasis lined with cyprani trees with the mounting roar of an approaching sandstorm on the horizon, the trees beginning to sway in the rising winds*

There are lot of ways to ICly respond to that.  One is to allow your character to perceive it and not worry about it (although I think it should seem a bit out of the ordinary at the very least).  Another is like Vesperas says, to not even allow your character to fully process it.  Another is to start getting very worried about mindworms, maybe one interfering with you or him/her or both, or thinking the sender is a mindworm.  None of these examples is an example of bad play on the part of the receiver, nor is the original action of the sender.  It's just very in character Zalanthan interaction.

Quote from: "Moe"...you'd know that there's almost nothing to go from as far as "common sense" is concerned. Feel free to prove me wrong by citing some knowledge resources, though.

Quote from: "Raesanos"I'm starting to feel like we're going in circles, but yes, you can use common sense to make decisions about psionics even though general knowledge doesn't include details about it.

That's pure opinion, Moe. You don't speak for me. Once the staff posted their views on the matter, the rest of the thread turned into a verbal circle-jerk.

Opinion?  So there's plenty of docs or whatnot about how far people can go with Way-imagry without having too worry about being called a mindbender, and I don't see it because it's my opinion that it doesn't exist?

I'm not being difficult just for fun.  This new addendum to the help files has created a significant (in my opinion :roll:) grey spot in my knowledge of the world of Zalanthas.  I'm asking what I'm supposed to fill it with, and people keep insisting on answering "common sense", but refusing to define what that is in a satisfactory (in my opinion :roll:) way.

If you don't like the way this thread has gone, stop reading.  I'm not done trying to figure things out and get answers from it, though.

The issue is, from my take on it Moe, that you want someone to fill in all the grey area for you. What I believe they are trying to say, is that is up to you to decide within the boundaries they have recently placed into the documentation. The reactions to what you choose to allow your pc to do, within those limitations, are up to the others you are interacting with to decide.
There is no right or wrong -within- those boundaries, it is up to you to decide what is proper for your pc and it is up to others that pc is interacting with to decide what is a proper reaction for them. This may or may not result in some sort of consequences, much like any other choice you've made rp-wise for your pc.
It's sort of a similar idea to there being some boundaries in place as to what you should expect from acting a certain way toward a templar or noble. There is alot of grey area in the middle which may or may not result in consequences (in varying degrees) for your pc, dependant upon both your choices for your pc and the choices of the nobles or templars that said pc is interacting with.

Example: The documentation doesn't specifically say that farting in the presence of an Allanaki noble is improper.

Situation A: Your pc is the type to do this and does so, resulting in no reaction from a nearby Allanaki noble.

Situation B: Your pc is the type to do this and does so, resulting in the noble's senses becoming offended and the noble asking a soldier to escort you to the dungeons where shortly afterward a templar at the request of the noble has your pc banished from the city.

Now, let's take this and relate it more directly to the documentation of The Way.

Example: The documentation regarding contact states that the use of images or emotions is acceptable roleplay but forcing feelings etc on another is not.

Situation A: Your pc uses images in their use of the way because you have decided that they are decently skilled enough at it to do so. The person they contact doesn't feel there is anything wrong with it and nothing out of the ordinary happens.
Situation B: Your pc uses images in their use of the way because you have decided that they are decently skilled enough at it to do so. The person they contact is paranoid and hasn't encountered much of this and decides that you must be a mindbender and reports you to the authorities.
In which case: 1) The authorities listen and do something to you about it. (dependant upon the authority figure involved and their personality/knowledge of such.
or 2) The authorities do not listen to them, for whatever reason the characters have.

Or any one of many many other possibilites.

What you seem to be asking for is an answer that will give you 100% knowledge in the consequences of your decisions regarding your choices within the grey area. What fun is there in that?

I don't know if that helps any but I figured I'd try.

Perhaps an appropriate comparison would be to the documentation on riding.  The docs don't (to my knowledge) give anywhere the Zalanthan norms for skill in riding.  They mention combat vs. non-combat, yes, but they don't refer to specific mounted skills.  Can your character ride bareback?  Sidesaddle?  Standing?  Do they have enough skill to smoke while riding?  Drink?  Take a nap?  The documentation does not specify, though you have the power to emote (or even codedly perform some of) these actions.  Does that mean you can?  OOCly, yes.  ICly?  If you suddenly decided that your character could ride standing while juggling balls of fire and playing the flute, you could emote that.  Might people think you were a magicker?  Yes, they very well might, and you might face IC consequences for it.  The docs didn't say you couldn't.  It's left up to your common sense.  Now, before you say that people have much more common sense regarding horses than they do telepathy, I want to ask, do they?  Really?  How many people in the Arm community have enough experience with horses to know precisely how difficult these activities would be?  Or, is the case not much more likely that the experiences people have with horses more prevalently derived from second hand or third hand experience?  Even movies, perhaps?  There's telepathy in movies.  Common sense regarding telepathy and common sense regarding riding could easily be equal for many players.

    Now, granted, this topic does not have, perhaps, as much potential impact on the game world.  I certainly don't want to see everyone riding around emoting about how they are stringing bows and combing their hair in a mirror while they are riding, but it's not likely to seriously disrupt the atmosphere.  But the point is, I don't see anyone petitioning the staff for more documentation about riding so that they know what their characters are capable of, so they know what won't get them in trouble, or so they know how to react to other riders.  If you feel yourself capable of making this distinction, my suggestion would be to take that same skillset, that same sensibility, and apply it to the Way.  The staff is trusting you.  Don't make them wrong.  And most importantly, have fun with it.

The problem with both of those examples is that common sense (or my common sense) clearly applies.

I know from real-life common sense that farting is unpleasant for those around me.  I know from the game documentation that nobles have a lot of power and are often corrupt in their application of it.  It's not a very big leap to deduce that farting arount a noble is a bad thing.

As for the second one, I'm pretty sure the docs DO state somewhere that you shouldn't emote magickal effects unless you're a magicker.  I suppose that was just an exaggerated example of emoting extreme skill at riding, though.  Anyway, I'm quite comfortable saying that people have more common sense regarding horses than they do telepathy.  I don't have to have experience riding a horse to know they exist.  I've seen enough instances of people riding horses to know within a reasonable bounds what types of concurrent activities are possible.

For the telepathy in movies, well, 95% of the time it seems to be verbal-only.  In addition, only about 10% of the time is it, or a certain proffeciency with it, illegal.  As I've stated before, my common sense regarding the Way has already been invalidated.


My feeling on this whole thing is that it's essentially as though the staff said "It's OOCly ok for elves to ride kanks, but there may be IC consequences if you do so" and with no other documents detailing the elven aversion for mounts.  Now sure, I might be able to figure out that elven pride might make an elf reluctant to ride, but how can I be reasonably confident that most other players will as well?  If all my elven friends mount up to go hunting, how do I justify time after time going on foot or staying behind?  Eventually, either OOCly or ICly, I'd probably get tired and just join with the crowd and then all elves are riding kanks.

As was pointed out not all aspects of the game world are fully covered in documentation, some things you learn to accept with experience. My very personal common sense dictates to me that until recently sending images directly to someone mind was reserved to some rare and dangerous freaks. In no way my past characters could have thought that sending images could be trained via sending messages, same way as my common sense prevents me from thinking that you can train your strength to the point where you can pick up and carry mekilot on your shoulders or grow your skin tough enough to be invulnerable to normal weapons or to train yourself in fireballing by uttering nonsense and snapping your fingers.

In fact I can think of at least two instances, where harmless image popping in one's mind was treated as ultimate sign of mindbending.
Scene 1. Tavern, some idlers at the table, a pair flirting at the bar and I am lazily checking their pockets. Suddenly someone adds a detail to my vision of tavern, nothing as bizarre as fire breathing dragon or two Templars kanking on the table, just an ordinary image of the simple object that wasn't there before, which disappeared with the blink of the eye. Was there a doubt; was there discussion if we all have seen the same thing? No, the sole fact that foreign image has appeared in our minds instantly forced everyone to backpedal and flee in terror, then to rally around nearest Templar for the city-wide mindbender hunt.

Scene 2. Someone, tired of my lies, tells me, "Behold, I'll show you something". And she sure does. It was not image itself that forced me to give up and to speak truth; it was her ability to stuff that alien image into my mind. And she did her demonstration on purpose; we both knew that no normal man can do that, no matter how hard they spam 'contact' and 'psi'.

Were we right or wrong in our reactions and expectations? Now, I don't know, I just show the way my 'common sense' about mental abilities been working before the change. Now I am told to change my common sense and to stretch my imagination. Fine, I say, to what limit do I have to do it? I am thankful for insights like 'we don't know', 'we don't care' and 'figure something on your own', but they don't sound satisfactory to me. I am ready to play by any rules, so long as they are set.