Quote from: "CRW"Or they might think that everything is supposed to sell for 18 sid and cost 21 sid with no exceptions.

After I got my starting clothes (having junked my newbie clothes) this is exactly what I did.

I also assume that -everything- gets haggled (there are some cultures where it's considered rude not to haggle) in the city-states/towns, with the exception of taverns. Having said that, I often do forget to (despite my earlier post), and with NPCs it's futile (and disheartening) without the skills to back you up. But yes, always haggling is an ideal I strive for (unless there is an exception. An exception would be I'm playing a Borsail noble buying from a Kadian. That's actually a difficult spot to be in. On the one hand I don't want to appear tight-fisted and as if I'm poorer then the merchant I'm dealing with. But I also don't want to appear foolish by getting ripped off by a ridiculous amount).

Quote from: "spawnloser"Then I go to buy something with a character that has haggle and meet the immovable wall of THIS IS THE PRICE from all PC merchants.

Yeah...PC to PC haggling, in my opinion, is broken.

Heh. I wouldn't be surprised if that immovable wall just so happens to be close to what the PC can get from a local NPC (either selling it or buying it). I agree that PCs should be more flexible. But on the other hand, an unwillingness to haggle on the part of the buyer makes it difficult for merchants.

If I'm a PC merchant and I'm selling stuff to PCs, I might decide to inflate it a bit to what the NPCs offer (Although I haven't played a merchant in a while, IMO it's fine to normally sell stuff within the range of what you can sell it to an NPC for, and what a PC can buy it from an NPC for). However if every PC I try to sell to shows an interest until they hear a price and go "nevermind" then I'm screwed. I offer a high price wanting to get bartered down, but instead get nothing. So then I lower the price to a lower amount, but I've got less room to barter then, and so at that point if someone does try to barter with me (which by Murphy's Law they will) then I can't afford to. So they hit that immovable wall of "THIS IS THE PRICE."

So yeah, it's broken. What it needs is more players being willing to barter no matter the starting price. It also needs players initially offering garbage prices. When I went to Mexico the prices for everything was ridiculous. No-one expected to pay that much. It was bartered down quite a bit. But players don't do this, instead they go "Oh. Well I might as well just get X from an NPC then. Bye, bye" and immediately walk away. Now that can be a bartering technique, but most of the time it isn't.

Quote from: "spawnloser"Then I go to buy something with a character that has haggle and meet the immovable wall of THIS IS THE PRICE from all PC merchants.

You failed your haggle check. ;)

> em snorts.

It's not up to a PC to decide when I fail my haggle check.  

I haggle.  I don't care if the damn skill is on my chart or not.  Everyone in Zalanthas haggles, code be damned.  Just because the code says that a merchant can get to the point where he can slash NPC prices and warrior will never be able to haggle 2 'sid off a 1000 'sid sword doesn't mean I am going to let a dumb code stop me from haggling with other PCs.  If you really want justification, then assume that the haggle skill means that you are REALLY good at haggling with store owners and that the price your stupid warrior sees when he types list is really the price he gets after he haggles for a little while.

Personally, I think everyone should always assume that the other party is setting out to haggle unless you already have a business relationship and have worked out prices earlier.  Everything from the drink at the bar to a sword sold by Salarr is up for haggling in my opinion.

If you are an elf, haggling should be in your blood.  Personally, whenever I play an elf I ALWAYS make my first offer to be well outside of the range I consider fair.  If the person I am haggling with accepts the first price, my elves tend to mentally kick themselves in the ass because it means they probably could have pressed for a better deal.

In the world of Zalanthas, you can't help but haggle.  If there is no price tag, you have to ask a merchant for a price.  Any merchant with a little grey matter between their head is going to tell you the price they THINK you will pay, not some fixed price.  

Besides, even if profit isn't your motive, there are other reasons to haggle too.  Haggling is a way to strike up conversation.  People are too eager to make deals and rarely take the time to make the deal making apart of conversation.  Haggling is also a game of wits that elves in particular (and certainly humans too) are very keen to play.  Both sides have a number on their head that is either the most they are willing to pay, or the least they are willing to sell for.  The game is to make a deal where the price is closer to their limits rather then yours.  The challenge is figuring out where their limit truly is and convincing them that your limit is closer to their then it is.

I really like the Guest's response on this topic. I completely agree, and I'll be putting some of this into pratice. It's an area where I've failed in the past.

Quote from: "spawnloser"> em snorts.

It's not up to a PC to decide when I fail my haggle check.  

Can you imagine that....

PC Buyer says "I'll give you 10 'sid for this."
PC Seller says "Alright. Try to haggle to see if you can do that."
PC buyer attempts to haggle, and fails.
PC Seller says "I'll sell it to you for 60 'sid."
PC Buyer says "You're ripping me off! I can get it from an NPC for 15 'sid!"
PC Seller says "Yeah, but you don't know that. Because you failed your haggle check."

Haggling is a tricky thing, and can and should be engaged in by all PC's in a transaction, in some form or another. Some will have a 'its the House's money, I don't personally care if you get as much as you like from it'. Some will offer favors in exchange for deals. Some are political, so you don't wanna rip them off, and you know they'll come back to you.

My PERSONAL favorite approach is: "Well, I -could- spend that much coin on this thing you want to sell me, or I could buy a contract on your life for a tenth of that price... oh don't worry, just musing out loud."

Yeah, I've found that I tend to react rather well when instead of offering a better price, the buyer just threatens to have me killed.

Noble Houses are strong houses. But they still do depend on merchant houses. If a noble -especially a junior noble who has little to none influence- starts threatening the agents of the merchant houses, I'm not sure the response may be "Yes, Lord Tightpants.. I'll lower the price from 2000 to 200."
If anything other than a noble threatens, it's a matter of position. I don't think any merchant can let a nobody threaten his servants lessening effectivity.
..
Threatening merchants? Still, it's a "Try and see" for me. Everything may happen. But I wouldn't do that with Joe half-elf ranger.

Joe the half-elf ranger tells the grey-haired Kuraci agent, "You want how much?  Listen, for half that I'd be tempted to cut out your heart and use it as gortok bait."


The grey-haired Kuraci agent smiles and takes a puff from his dead-moron-carved spice pipe.