Merchants, purchasing, bartering, and interaction

[zanthalandreams]

A recent post about dealing with merchants got me thinking about, well, dealing with merchants.  I almost put up a poll, but I despise polls so instead I'll just open up the question.

My thoughts are on prices and haggling.  Not the barter skill, and not dealing with NPC merchants.  I'm talking about you seeking out Merchant Amos from House Amos to buy specific items.  Do you ever argue the price?  Do you try but encounter brick walls of monopolistic pricing?  Do you assume that prices are concrete?   In your experience, do you find that merchants only accept 'sid?   Merchant players, do you find that people would rather pay only in 'sid?  

I am not asking for IC anecdotes, nor am I looking for discussion on how Merchant Houses come up with their pricing.  I am only curious about your feelings (either as a buyer or seller) about the joys of bartering.

Or, really, is this even something you care about?

[marko]

Yes, my characters often haggle the price.

[Malifaxis]

I try.  I have oft encountered the wall of searing blades that is the given price, and have been unable to breach it.

A couple times, though, and those ruled.  Should happen more often.

[Larrath]

I've bartered several times, but I don't think I ever had a really intense bartering deal thing.  And I think direct barter (not using obsidian) can make things a lot more interesting; I'll trade you a cotton shirt for five lengths of bone.  Well of COURSE it's a good deal!

[Tamarin]

If I'm playing a character who knows better, who's a little street-wise, they haggle, yeah.  If my character is a dummy, then no.

[zanthalandreams]

I realized I forgot to post my own opinion on it.   I wish there were more of it, from the stance of the buyer and the seller.  Since there is a coded barter skill and since NPC prices are certainly not carved in stone to a code-skilled haggler, then I can't imagine the powers-that-be intended for PC merchant prices to be any different.  The times I have had a creative and fluent haggler argue pricing with me have, without exception, been great fun - even if I didn't get the goods or make the sale.  

I haven't seen as much, though, as the Wal-Mart style of trading.  You know what I mean, the sticker price is exactly what you pay no matter what.  I envision the marketplaces of the Known World operating much more like a third-world bazaar or a South Alabama flea market where everything is negotiable -often loudly and emotionally so.

[Maybe42or54]

If I have the skill haggle, then I will haggle with Pcs.
If I can't haggle with NPCs, I can't haggle with Pcs.

I always hated it when I saw a Pc haggle with another Pc without the skill, because well.. that isn't treating the world realistically IMO. That is just my opinion though.

[Synthesis]

Well, 42or54, -everyone- can barter successfully with NPCs, regardless of whether you have the skill in your list.  You won't improve, and you won't be very good at it compared to someone who has the skill, but you can eke out a few 'sids here and there, which over time can add up to a hefty amount.

So, feel free to haggle with PCs, too.

[SpyGuy]

Really depends.  If it's an independent merchant I usually try to barter, normally ignoring whether I have haggle or not but then again I almost always play PCs that do.  I disagree with Maybe, it just doesn't bother me because PC haggling really increases interaction.  Though in the future if I play someone that doesn't have the skill I may make them a bit more terrible at it.

As for the Merchant Houses...it largely depends.  Sometimes you find a merchant who for whatever reason likes to hike up your prices, then I may try to barter it down.  But if I find a merchant who consistently gives me a fair price, why am I going to mess that up by constantly bickering over 50 coins?  If I was playing a PC merchant I'd have a price I wanted for whatever item in my mind.  Those buyers who in the past would never settle for around the given price would consistently see their prices rise until I was getting what I thought was a fair deal.  Those who were happy with what I considered a fair price would keep receiving it and my hope would be they'd be a returning customer.  And those who I figured would never return for business and who looked dumb would probably get the inflated price with the hope I'd make myself a decent amount of coin.

Short answer:  Depends on the merchant, depends on the customer.

[Maybe42or54]

Then that should be reflected in your RP. Instead of haggling for 100 coin discount at a time, try a few at a time.

[zanthalandreams]

Yeah, I always viewed it like playing darts even though I don't have skill_throwing or hopping on a kank even though I don't have skill_riding.  I can see using wisdom or racial stereotype as a guideline, though.   I imagine elves would argue pricing as easily as breathing air.   Half-giants, on the other hand, may just trust the smart-looking merchant.  Maybe if I had a particularly thick character, I wouldn't haggle very well or lack patience with the process.

[Intrepid]

Half-Giant haggling on a good day...

HG: Can I get 500 sid fer this feather?
Merchant: No, but I might give you 5 sid for it.
HG: DEAL!  WOOOOOT!


Half-Giant haggling on a bad day...

HG: Can I get 500 sid fer this feather?
Merchant: No, but I might give you--CHURLKX!
HG: Can I get 500 sid fer this feather?
Merchant coughs and nods emphatically, giving the giant all his money.
HG: This 500 sid?
Merchant: M...m...more...
HG: SWEET!
HG wanders off.


Halfling/Mantis haggling...

H/M: How much for the little boy?
Merchant: Th-th-that's my apprentice.  He's not f-for sale.
H/M: Well...that just leaves you and me.  *CHOMP*


Elven haggling on a bad day...

E: I'll take the whole thing.
Merch: Really?  That's terrific!
E: And your clothes.
Merch: Umm...I'm not selling those.
E: Good, because I'm not buying.  Now fork it all over, roundear.


Elven haggling on a good day...

Merch: How the hell did I end up with this crap?  I paid you 500 sid for this?
E: My sister gives mean head--especially when you're tanked on spice and she gets
a share of the cut.  You would have agreed to sell your ass into slavery if she'd asked.


Dwarf haggling on a good day...

Merch: You drive a hard bargain.  How did you know I would pay that much?
D: I've been watching you for three years.  It's all in accordance to my goals to fly
to Lirathu.


Dwarf haggling on a bad day...

Merch: I'll give you 50 sid for it.
D: I don't get it.  How does paying that little help me get to Lirathu?
Merch: I don't care.  50 sid or no deal.
D: You're making me angry and unable to get to Lirathu.
Merch: Again, refer back to the not caring.
D: You wouldn't like me when I'm angry and unable to get to Lirathu.


Half-elven haggling...

HE: Three furs, two hides, 70 sid total.  It's a steal.
Merch: It is a steal.  Tell you what, 80 sid and the promise of more of this golden brown
type of fur, and we'll call it a deal.
HE: You trying to patronize me, fecker?
Merch: Umm, no...I'm just trying to set up good relations with--
HE: Oh, so the poor, weak half-breed needs to live off your good intentions?
Merch: What?  No, that's insane!
HE: So now I'm some feckin' lunatic?  YOU WANNA SEE ME CRAZY, BITCH!?
Merch: Guards, inform the templarate we have a live one here...
HE: Oh, so that's it, is it?  I try to stand up for myself and I get hauled off to jail!  FECKERS!
HE is dragged off kicking and screaming.


Mul haggling...

Mul: Feck you and the kank you rode in on, purebreed! *BASH*
Merch: I QUIT!  *FLEES*

[EvilRoeSlade]

I always offer less than I'm willing to pay and more than I'm willing to sell.

Some people get offended and accuse me of thinking they are stupid and playing them for a fool.  The rest understand the game world.

[John]

I haggle unless I think I'm getting a good deal. Then I quickly take it before the person realizes how bad a deal it was for them.

[Gaare]

I always, but always haggle with PCs... sometimes for RL hours. Earning a single sid is very difficult, that's not wise to leave it without a fight.

[zanthalandreams]

Good.  I was hoping this would be the response.  Maybe this can encourage folks who haven't thought about it to try.

[Anonymous]

Half-Giant haggling on a good day...

HG: Can I get 500 sid fer this feather?
Merchant: No, but I might give you 5 sid for it.
HG: DEAL!  WOOOOOT!

I guess I look at HG's differently.  I would think that a half-giant probably learned to mimic bartering by watching someone who did it.  As such they'd probably end up either thinking that you have to go back and forth on price a few times because that's what the person they watched did and they'd likely repeat the same stuff that the person they observed said.  Stuff like saying 'I can get these at the bakery down the road for 10 sid less than that' when talking about a sword, etc.

Or they might think that everything is supposed to sell for 18 sid and cost 21 sid with no exceptions.

[Lizzie]

I didn't realize it was optional in a world like this. I haggle. Always.

[Intrepid]

I see what you're saying, but after an exchange with Naiona a while back, I came to
realize that just because a half-giant tries to mimic someone does not mean that they
succeed.  Since I consider haggling to be a shrewd art based on your ability to weigh
options and make snap decisions (which half-giants are notoriously unable to do well),
their mimicking of the art of barter is severely flawed.

[Red Ranger]

I too always haggle.  If I'm selling something, I shoot high with my offering price.  If I'm buying something, I shoot low with my offering price.  I consider this constant haggling another fun aspect that reinforces the gameworld's difference from the real world.  That is also one reason why I like getting paid in forms other than cash, and paying in forms other than cash.

Red Ranger

[Maybe42or54]

As long as you haggle from time to time with NPCs, then you should haggle with Pcs.

[Delirium]

It depends on who it is and what the deal is.

Generally, however, I haggle, and welcome being haggled with.

I've also found that RPing out haggling with NPCs is a great way to practice for PCs.  It forces you to be pretty creative.

[SpyGuy]

As long as you haggle from time to time with NPCs, then you should haggle with Pcs.

No you shouldn't.  Your RP should always be what your character should do at any given moment.  Would you treat all PC merchants the same as some elf in the bazaar?  If so than fine, but not all PCs will.  I'm all for PC haggling but there are absolutely no rules and very few expectations that should govern it, it should just be a part of your RP if it's appropriate.

[spawnloser]

I both like and dislike haggling with PCs.  First off, your character doesn't know the art and mine does...but you think you can get a good price out of my character?  Seriously.  This goes for whether I'm buying or selling.

Then I go to buy something with a character that has haggle and meet the immovable wall of THIS IS THE PRICE from all PC merchants.

Yeah...PC to PC haggling, in my opinion, is broken.

[Cenghiz]

Usually my characters first try to see for how much what they sell is sold in the local market. Then lower the price just a bit and try to sell. If someone tries to haggle even more, they often refuse and tell that person to go buy it from the market instead. My characters never sell less than half the market price.

[John]

Or they might think that everything is supposed to sell for 18 sid and cost 21 sid with no exceptions.

After I got my starting clothes (having junked my newbie clothes) this is exactly what I did.

I also assume that -everything- gets haggled (there are some cultures where it's considered rude not to haggle) in the city-states/towns, with the exception of taverns. Having said that, I often do forget to (despite my earlier post), and with NPCs it's futile (and disheartening) without the skills to back you up. But yes, always haggling is an ideal I strive for (unless there is an exception. An exception would be I'm playing a Borsail noble buying from a Kadian. That's actually a difficult spot to be in. On the one hand I don't want to appear tight-fisted and as if I'm poorer then the merchant I'm dealing with. But I also don't want to appear foolish by getting ripped off by a ridiculous amount).

Then I go to buy something with a character that has haggle and meet the immovable wall of THIS IS THE PRICE from all PC merchants.

Yeah...PC to PC haggling, in my opinion, is broken.

Heh. I wouldn't be surprised if that immovable wall just so happens to be close to what the PC can get from a local NPC (either selling it or buying it). I agree that PCs should be more flexible. But on the other hand, an unwillingness to haggle on the part of the buyer makes it difficult for merchants.

If I'm a PC merchant and I'm selling stuff to PCs, I might decide to inflate it a bit to what the NPCs offer (Although I haven't played a merchant in a while, IMO it's fine to normally sell stuff within the range of what you can sell it to an NPC for, and what a PC can buy it from an NPC for). However if every PC I try to sell to shows an interest until they hear a price and go "nevermind" then I'm screwed. I offer a high price wanting to get bartered down, but instead get nothing. So then I lower the price to a lower amount, but I've got less room to barter then, and so at that point if someone does try to barter with me (which by Murphy's Law they will) then I can't afford to. So they hit that immovable wall of "THIS IS THE PRICE."

So yeah, it's broken. What it needs is more players being willing to barter no matter the starting price. It also needs players initially offering garbage prices. When I went to Mexico the prices for everything was ridiculous. No-one expected to pay that much. It was bartered down quite a bit. But players don't do this, instead they go "Oh. Well I might as well just get X from an NPC then. Bye, bye" and immediately walk away. Now that can be a bartering technique, but most of the time it isn't.

[Delirium]

Then I go to buy something with a character that has haggle and meet the immovable wall of THIS IS THE PRICE from all PC merchants.

You failed your haggle check. ;)

[spawnloser]

> em snorts.

It's not up to a PC to decide when I fail my haggle check.  

[Anonymous]

I haggle.  I don't care if the damn skill is on my chart or not.  Everyone in Zalanthas haggles, code be damned.  Just because the code says that a merchant can get to the point where he can slash NPC prices and warrior will never be able to haggle 2 'sid off a 1000 'sid sword doesn't mean I am going to let a dumb code stop me from haggling with other PCs.  If you really want justification, then assume that the haggle skill means that you are REALLY good at haggling with store owners and that the price your stupid warrior sees when he types list is really the price he gets after he haggles for a little while.

Personally, I think everyone should always assume that the other party is setting out to haggle unless you already have a business relationship and have worked out prices earlier.  Everything from the drink at the bar to a sword sold by Salarr is up for haggling in my opinion.

If you are an elf, haggling should be in your blood.  Personally, whenever I play an elf I ALWAYS make my first offer to be well outside of the range I consider fair.  If the person I am haggling with accepts the first price, my elves tend to mentally kick themselves in the ass because it means they probably could have pressed for a better deal.

In the world of Zalanthas, you can't help but haggle.  If there is no price tag, you have to ask a merchant for a price.  Any merchant with a little grey matter between their head is going to tell you the price they THINK you will pay, not some fixed price.  

Besides, even if profit isn't your motive, there are other reasons to haggle too.  Haggling is a way to strike up conversation.  People are too eager to make deals and rarely take the time to make the deal making apart of conversation.  Haggling is also a game of wits that elves in particular (and certainly humans too) are very keen to play.  Both sides have a number on their head that is either the most they are willing to pay, or the least they are willing to sell for.  The game is to make a deal where the price is closer to their limits rather then yours.  The challenge is figuring out where their limit truly is and convincing them that your limit is closer to their then it is.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I really like the Guest's response on this topic. I completely agree, and I'll be putting some of this into pratice. It's an area where I've failed in the past.

[John]

> em snorts.

It's not up to a PC to decide when I fail my haggle check.  

Can you imagine that....

PC Buyer says "I'll give you 10 'sid for this."
PC Seller says "Alright. Try to haggle to see if you can do that."
PC buyer attempts to haggle, and fails.
PC Seller says "I'll sell it to you for 60 'sid."
PC Buyer says "You're ripping me off! I can get it from an NPC for 15 'sid!"
PC Seller says "Yeah, but you don't know that. Because you failed your haggle check."

[Yang]

Haggling is a tricky thing, and can and should be engaged in by all PC's in a transaction, in some form or another. Some will have a 'its the House's money, I don't personally care if you get as much as you like from it'. Some will offer favors in exchange for deals. Some are political, so you don't wanna rip them off, and you know they'll come back to you.

My PERSONAL favorite approach is: "Well, I -could- spend that much coin on this thing you want to sell me, or I could buy a contract on your life for a tenth of that price... oh don't worry, just musing out loud."

[zanthalandreams]

Yeah, I've found that I tend to react rather well when instead of offering a better price, the buyer just threatens to have me killed.

[Cenghiz]

Noble Houses are strong houses. But they still do depend on merchant houses. If a noble -especially a junior noble who has little to none influence- starts threatening the agents of the merchant houses, I'm not sure the response may be "Yes, Lord Tightpants.. I'll lower the price from 2000 to 200."
If anything other than a noble threatens, it's a matter of position. I don't think any merchant can let a nobody threaten his servants lessening effectivity.
..
Threatening merchants? Still, it's a "Try and see" for me. Everything may happen. But I wouldn't do that with Joe half-elf ranger.

[zanthalandreams]

Joe the half-elf ranger tells the grey-haired Kuraci agent, "You want how much?  Listen, for half that I'd be tempted to cut out your heart and use it as gortok bait."


The grey-haired Kuraci agent smiles and takes a puff from his dead-moron-carved spice pipe.