I have a suggestion, if a person is sleeping, if you attempt to remove a worn item, ie pack, necklace, key, there is an increased chance, depending on weight, that the person is awakened by the attempt, two for boots and two for gloves.

It's unrealistic that if I am asleep that you can remove my jacket or tug off my backpack without awakening me, assuming it's not a magickal or poisoned state.

It's not okay that people can just steal a backpack off someone in the Byn Barracks. Someone would notice that shit.

Pretty sure there's an echo to the victim if it's done by someone without the steal skill. Which seems fair.  Then you can RP waking up or not.

If that's broken or I'm wrong then yeah, that should echo.

Quote from: Agent_137 on August 22, 2024, 03:58:43 PMPretty sure there's an echo to the victim if it's done by someone without the steal skill. Which seems fair.  Then you can RP waking up or not.

If that's broken or I'm wrong then yeah, that should echo.

It echoes, but when I'm asleep, I'm probably not obsessively watching the screen. It's a great time to grab a drink or go to the bathroom or whatever.

While it's not a huge deal, I have to agree. Maybe make it require the steal skill or something, idk.

Quote from: Lotion on August 22, 2024, 03:14:22 PMIt's not okay that people can just steal a backpack off someone in the Byn Barracks. Someone would notice that shit.

100%

1. The times you are forced to sleep in this game are already very limited. The need to sleep often being the only consequence to staying in a fight too long. Taking in consideration the bandage skill and the fact that people aren't looking to Pk as randomly anymore, waking up with some stuff missing seem like a reasonable consequence to me.

2. Clans have a tremendous amount of benefits and that is really putting it mildly at this point. Theft within the clan is a small little bit of conflict that can be dealt with ICly by the players themselves.  This is a personal problem not an organization one that staff should be involved in. The rules on when staff can engage against a PC  on behalf of clans/clanned PC likely needs to become much more transparent and much more limited than in the past.  For example, I know there are rules already for plundering lockers since there is VNPC/NPC watching them, it makes sense that staff get involved if someone is logging offpeak to clean them all out.

Quote from: Dresan on August 24, 2024, 11:10:43 AM1. The times you are forced to sleep in this game are already very limited. The need to sleep often being the only consequence to staying in a fight too long. Taking in consideration the bandage skill and the fact that people aren't looking to Pk as randomly anymore, waking up with some stuff missing seem like a reasonable consequence to me.

2. Clans have a tremendous amount of benefits and that is really putting it mildly at this point. Theft within the clan is a small little bit of conflict that can be dealt with ICly by the players themselves.  This is a personal problem not an organization one that staff should be involved in. The rules on when staff can engage against a PC  on behalf of clans/clanned PC likely needs to become much more transparent and much more limited at this point than in the past.  For example, I know there are rules already for plundering lockers since there is VNPC/NPC watching them.

I don't think this is so much about eliminating that 'reasonable consequence'. It's giving the person a chance to be able to respond and putting risk into the action of removing an entire backpack from someone who's sleeping. The OP mentioned a chance based on weight. That's pretty reasonable. A lot of 'antagonistic' actions come with a risk.. like missing a backstab, failing to pick a pocket, etc.

That being said.. it's why I try and log out if I can't actively be watching  the screen.

If you are sleeping, not passed out drunk or strung out on drugs, you will 100% wake up/notice if someone is trying to take something from you that you are wearing. Hard stop right there.

If people are abusing this send in a player complaint and reimbursement request.

Quote from: Drov on August 24, 2024, 11:41:45 AMIf you are sleeping, not passed out drunk or strung out on drugs, you will 100% wake up/notice if someone is trying to take something from you that you are wearing. Hard stop right there.

This is not true. I've been on both sides of this equation. There is a chance to notice, but thinking that has to do with steal skill or some other factor. If you find someone sleeping, you can also steal stuff while hiding, in which case even if they notice, they might not notice who did it when they wake up.

The best solution is not being robbed while sleeping is really not to put yourself in a situation where you need sleep, or have the bandage skill.

There is another thing to consider ... Just because you can fall asleep with your 400 stone backpack full of sharp obsidian shards, and your thick shell armor, does it actually make sense that you are curled up around all your belongs or still actually sleeping with a backpack on? As someone that rarely used my locker in high school and carried a 60-80lb backpack around, just that is rough to carry around, let along wear when sitting and impossible to wear while lying down.

I am often not a fan of how sneaky code works in this game, but also there are other stuff like the fact that noone has to take things off. The fact there might occasionally be a time when you are slightly more vulnerable ... I am okay with.

My issue isn't stealing things from their packs or pockets etc while they are sleeping, it is stealing whole backpacks, their clothes/armor. As I said in a previous post, being drunk or drugged out different issue, in a barracks full of people hard stop.

Speaking specifically on military organizations IC, an some of the different ones ooc, yes they do sleep, at times with their packs on.

As I said in a previous post, being drunk or drugged out different issue, in a barracks full of people hard stop. Sober sleeping hard stop. -in my opinion-

You have obviously never been to Pamplona during running of the bulls if you think stealing a backpack while someone is asleep is at all an issue.  Happens all the time, in a crowded square with hundreds and hundreds of people.

One very sharp knife, couple of cuts.  It takes seconds.  The backpack does not get out of this intact, but apparently it is super easy, given the frequency of it happening when I was there.

Quote from: Twilight on August 24, 2024, 12:33:52 PMYou have obviously never been to Pamplona during running of the bulls if you think stealing a backpack while someone is asleep is at all an issue.  Happens all the time, in a crowded square with hundreds and hundreds of people.

One very sharp knife, couple of cuts.  It takes seconds.  The backpack does not get out of this intact, but apparently it is super easy, given the frequency of it happening when I was there.

One hundred percent agree with this and again my issue isn't with the stealing, it is the enviroment which it is happening and the conditions surrounding it. Pull out that knife in the barracks and start cutting someone's backpack, don't be upset if you get ganked by pcs and npcs. Do out outside a barracks/estate be ready to run.

Side note went to one running of the bulls, it was fun....I will be a bystander if I go again though lol

I agree with some places or circumstances theft should either be much harder or not tolerated, but even those might have exceptions that just making a "no theft" room does not really make sense.

I could see some some additional logging done in clan rooms for different commands, in addition to just asking players to be more aware and consider surroundings.

Also be nice to have better awareness of VNPC population. It is sometimes not very clear what is going on, and throughout the years, there is always RP that of indicates we as players are really bad at acknowledging we are in a much more populated world then the PC/NPC population accounts for.

Sometimes I think more work to bring in particular the cities and the clan areas to life might help with this.

But fall asleep in some public dormitory, among massives of people struggling to get by? Noone is going to care that your backpack got stolen.

Quote from: Drov on August 24, 2024, 12:51:16 PMPull out that knife in the barracks and start cutting someone's backpack, don't be upset if you get ganked by pcs and npcs. Do out outside a barracks/estate be ready to run.

Militia, yes, and maybe some of the noble military branches. Regular quarters in other clans, probably.

However, here is another way to see this, there is often nothing in a pack worth stealing from an OOC perspective, there are easier ways to make coins. Therefore someone took a chance to perform a theft, because its hit or miss whether staff will decide to intervene and screw someone over with no effort on their part. A theft like this would create trust issues in a team that needs to trust each other to survive, and it would suddenly makes everyone suspicious. It will either generate RP as people question each other and try to work out the problem, or it will generate a small amount of work for staff to make it all the potential conflict and RP disappear after a complaint, ensuring that it never happens again because what is the point of risking your time/character for nothing. 

I just find it astounding that staff keep getting called in to deal with the player vs player conflicts that this game is sometimes able to generate. And that historically some in staff have been more than happy to get involved for the honor and glory of their clans and sponsored roles. 

Quote from: Dresan on August 24, 2024, 01:55:58 PMI just find it astounding that staff keep getting called in to deal with the player vs player conflicts that this game is sometimes able to generate. And that historically some in staff have been more than happy to get involved for the honor and glory of their clans and sponsored roles. 

I think what folks are responding to here isn't that people want staff to step in on PVP conflict, it's the fact that due to code limitations, the options for PvP conflict are very limited. A sleeping PC who has their pack stolen has no options at all other than to wake up and find their gear gone.

A thief with good steal and sleight of hand, hiding, stealing from someone passed out drunk should be absolutely fine. Random Joe Runner with no pertinent skills stealing from a sleeping Pc should have a chance of getting caught somehow.w

Quote from: Singer on August 24, 2024, 02:29:25 PM

Quote from: Dresan on August 24, 2024, 01:55:58 PMI just find it astounding that staff keep getting called in to deal with the player vs player conflicts that this game is sometimes able to generate. And that historically some in staff have been more than happy to get involved for the honor and glory of their clans and sponsored roles. 

I think what folks are responding to here isn't that people want staff to step in on PVP conflict, it's the fact that due to code limitations, the options for PvP conflict are very limited. A sleeping PC who has their pack stolen has no options at all other than to wake up and find their gear gone.

A thief with good steal and sleight of hand, hiding, stealing from someone passed out drunk should be absolutely fine. Random Joe Runner with no pertinent skills stealing from a sleeping Pc should have a chance of getting caught somehow.w

We may view conflict in very different ways.  Conflict isn't to me the potential for the person stolen from to know who did it.  That is just theft armor.  Conflict is them waking up, not knowing, and using other interactions to pick someone to be suspicious of and get back at.

Being right in terms of who they retaliate against is irrelevant.

Theft happens and will continue to happen. It is a consequence of limited resources, fear, and desperation. In fact, the thefts being described are actually reasonable, and I've seen them in real life.

I believe the appropriate response would be to change things. I think if you steal in those particular rooms, there should be a random chance you are reported to a Sergeant or staff is pinged, and a slightly larger chance that instead a rumor post is generated about you on the nearest rumor board.

Some very clearly populated rooms should have this tag and effect, while some very clearly populated rooms shouldn't. A mercenary barracks, a shared storage space for a House or Merchant House, places like those have clear hierarchies and rules, so it stands to reason to me that these places should have that tag applied.



Regarding sleeping and stealing, there should be a large range of results, from instantly knowing you are being stolen from, and it is easy to wake up and spot them, to never knowing you were stolen from, and being too tired/drunk/etc to wake up, and even in that full, crowded, well - lit room, no one saw anything. Only an absolute master of skill with good attributes should be able to do that undetected to even vnpcs, right? If that's not the case, maybe the scale should be looked at and adjusted.


After so long of playing, it seems silly to think anyone sleeps. I once tried to launch a campaign to get more people to sleep during a scheduled time, to make it a habit, to utilize the dream command, and when it seemed like I felt a lot of pushback, I stopped sleeping as much. Guess it's trendy again now? Not if this keeps happening in large proponderance.

I plugged my thoughts into ChatGPT for help coming up with a formula. I'm certain it's not directly applicable because I don't have any idea how the stealth code works in Arm but I think this conveys the intent of the OP.

That may be, but at a glance the math for the components will give lots of 0 or 1+ answers, skewing the end result to be mostly 0 or 1+, when you are trying for a percentage so should be trying to get the end result to be 0 to 1.

Quote from: strangeloop on August 24, 2024, 05:00:41 PM...

Its an interesting idea but something the idea isn't factoring in is the fact that the game already takes into account 'awareness' through standing, sitting, resting and sleeping. Each state already having their benefits and downsides. Sleep being the most beneficial for recovery and one of the few ways to heal if you below 50% HP but in exchange it is the most dangerous, as you are the least aware and vulnerable. However, its also the most rare state to put yourself in unless you become too hurt and have no bandage skill. Again, depending on some factors I think people already get some notification when robbed, but if people want to make sleeping a safer option, then sleeping would have to be needed more.

I myself would be okay with changing sleep so its one of the few ways you heal from any level of injury that has not been inflicted with a sparring weapon but guessing most people would prefer to keep the need for sleep rare.

Just add a mul to every barracks (AoD, Byn, Tor, Legion, etc.) that kills anyone who uses steal from someone without nosave steal set.

I think it's fine right where it's at, no problem. Could it be improved a little? Sure. Chance to wake up (if able to) - sure. Upon someone flippin' your ass over and pulling a backpack off you, unstrapping your arms, I'd say a small chance to wake up is feasible.

Lot of speculation here.

If OP's thief was a thief with steal, sneak, sleight of hand, hide and beat whatever coded checks there are to echo failure, then we're all good right?

If OP's thief was some no-rp no-steal-skill runner who walked off with his backpack silently then ofc nobody likes that, but I really thought taking worn items echoed to the sleeper already.

Perhaps in lieu of waiting for the code to be explained by staff and possibly changed to be more realistic, I suggest wishing up to get an npc in the room to tell you what they saw. And reporting to your IC leadership who can do the same with more authority. Then follow up with request if you don't get animations in the moment.

Basically 'yes and' the theft, assume the RP was legit, and make a plot out of it.

Setbacks are good story.