If only there was a place where people could learn to be aides...

For right now: there doesn't seem to be enough interest in the role to warrant the Atrium to be open. Splitting up more staff attention is also a concern. Maybe in the future!

Quote from: Classclown on August 22, 2024, 06:20:22 PMIf only there was a place where people could learn to be aides...

From what I can see, there are IC resources available in game if a PC wants to learn to aide. The Atrium is not the only possible way to do this. PCs that want to learn should try asking around.

My biggest issue with the Atrium is that you get fabulous instructors who want to shape the students a little too much out of whatever quirks and issues they have. So the aide ends up being a bastardization of whatever is the accepted norm at the Atrium and their own ideas, which kind of dilutes both.

Engaging nobles to say 'What do you want Aide Amos to be focusing on?' and back and forthing is probably the best solution, but is not always practical.

There is no one 'The Atrium,' it differs based on who is at the helm, like any other clan.

When I was an instructor, after you'd passed the basics like House ranks, how to address and introduce people, how to report, etc., you were supposed to work with your noble to pick your own curriculum out of literally anything. It made sense to have the aide be the one saying what the noble wanted.

The advanced curriculum was designed to be hands on. Most people chose things like 'music' or 'sketching' or 'cooking,' but we had one templar want an aide trained in interrogation, so I got to run a few questioning and torture lessons. That was fun. Or 'party planning,' which was fun too since the Red's got a party out of it. Your noble wanted you to pick locks? Guess you get to learn how to acquire picks and not get caught, here's the name of a Guild stooge.

I gave literally no shits about how the aide behaved, I'd just report it to their noble. If the noble didn't care that the guy was climbing around on the roofs, who was I to tell him to stop. (Gravity eventually stopped him.) (Or maybe defenestration.)

I'm not saying this to say that this is how the Atrium was in your day, just to illustrate that it isn't always this or that.

But this can be done without the Atrium. There is literally nothing stopping you, the aide, from working with your noble to figure out other skills to develop than bar-sitting and hob-knobbing. If you say you want to learn how to pick locks, most noble players would probably jump at someone with that kind of initiative and throw 20 lockpicks at you so you can spy on your neighbors. I sure would have taken that and run with it on any noble I played.

Atrium leader players are my favorites in the community. We know a special kind of struggle in Allanaki politics. 

Gimf's Guide to Being an Awesome Aide.  NOW it comes up properly in a GDB search.

Quote from: Seeker on August 25, 2024, 11:51:35 AMGimf's Guide to Being an Awesome Aide.  NOW it comes up properly in a GDB search.

Nice! It'd be extra nice if player guides like this were vetted by staff and tossed on the website.

***snipped by moderator marshallDFX***

I've played me some aides and aide-adjacent PCs though, here and elsewhere. Even being someone who enjoys that sort of roleplay, my general view of it on Armageddon is that being an aide is generally a minefield full of potential problems but few resources except for standing you're somewhat dependent on other people to reward and understand the value of. Though not always, it can be a thankless role with more vulnerabilities and far less meaningful power than safety or benefits. You have to really enjoy political play in particular to want to do it because there's not much other reason to.

This is at least, in my opinion, partly because of how leadership roles often work on Armageddon - through role call special apps instead of it being a place that the PC has earned their way into.

We've accordingly had some inconsistent leadership in some areas and also some leadership turnover early on which has contributed to a slowdown in the areas where they're centered; if you'll notice, nobility hasn't been the only area suffering this for stretches. But even so, noble play has gotten going too, and for much of Season 1 here it's been bustling. It's possible you just haven't seen it.

More directly on topic though, why are there no aide players? Again, partly the structure of how Arm does these roles is to blame. Aidework is often thought to be a lifelong or at least very dangerous commitment difficult to get out of, and it's often to one of these rolecall PCs who's new, and that new PC the player may not ever comfortably establish themselves into, be consistent with playtimes on a role they're not yet very invested in, or find a good enough dynamic as a PC to play the role they're expected to in the gameworld.

Because the role is propped up by its nature in being a leadership role with resources even if those resources haven't necessarily been earned or if the player doesn't know what to do with them, and they're also suddenly having to manage developing the personality and sinking into what's otherwise a fresh PC they may not really know how to play comfortably.

Aides being by nature PCs that are invested in this otherwise unknown PC with an unearned position that the player may still be trying to figure out in terms of being a persona, it's daunting to begin with. Then, the role itself is a bit of a minefield -  and not in a way you can cover with coded skills - often underpaid, sometimes underappreciated in terms of the weight it bears, often unprotected and underdeveloped in terms of skills. Further, an aide is in significant ways powerless and dependent on the standing of another.

A suggestion I would have would be to expand the resources an aide can expect to have, at least once they're of a rank to deserve it. I'd gives aides of high enough rank an office for meetings for starters, possibly with a doorguard, and increase their standard pay across the board. Give them a tiny bit of agency of their own and I feel the role would be much more workable and desirable.

Further, I'd make templarate aides more akin to House aides.

Example: your templarate aide/advisor/etc, at least of a particular rank above junior, doesn't work for one templar and one templar alone. You work for the City Ministry, though you can be reassigned or fired in the right circumstances all the same, but your seniority isn't erased the moment a particular templar is gone. This is just silly how it currently stands. The templarate wouldn't just release years-long servants who know city and templarate business and secrets and still have value to a particular ministry's doings - they would be reassigned.

Maybe your boss is even an (v)NPC City Minister for stretches until a new PC templar shows up or pledges to a particular ministry.

One way or another, templarate aides need to be rewritten. This should be examined.

Further, ranking aides should be allowed - even expected - to read and write.

You would immediately see interest in these roles if they had actual privileges and resources they, in my opinion, should have.

Aides are personality characters. You need a character personality that other people want to interact with, do favors for, side with. That is where the real power of a good aide comes from.

Who your boss is?  Just bells and whistles and won't save the character if they don't have a compelling personality.

I don't agree, while it's ideal to have a personality an aide/noble DUO gets a lot more done, unless you are like an aide who everyone knows and has lived for a million years.

I have moved a post to moderation just in case people are wondering about context. R1.

You raise some valid points, though I must respectfully disagree with a few of them.

Take, for instance, the idea of Templars sharing aides. Generally, each ministry tends to have only one PC Templar at a time, so the notion of a ministry-wide PC aide serving multiple Templars is logistically improbable. More importantly, from an in-character perspective, no aide would be trusted with personal or sensitive matters—particularly the more intriguing aspects of service—if they were serving more than one master. This is partly why those who manage to survive their tenure under a noble or Templar often find themselves blacklisted: they're simply not trusted with sensitive knowledge. While a servant might serve multiple individuals, a personal aide would not.

Regarding high-ranking aides or servants being literate, the same common misconception appears again: just because one may not think such individuals exist doesn't mean they don't.

On literacy: It should not only be not hidden or secretive, literacy among truly upper classes of commoners (high ranking aides, bastards, etc) should be expressly legal and expected.

On aides: Templars shouldn't 'share' aides any more than nobles do, but like House aides, they're a part of a certain establishment. They need some kind of benefits from that establisment. Currently, they have none.

Mind, Templarate aides have the absolute worst setup possible in the game, almost. Here's a shortlist off the top of my head:

No free food.
No free water.
No barracks.
No hub for their work.
No friendly NPCs.
No private or protected spaces whatsoever.
No law exceptions by NPCs. (Got spice? Guess what, it's taken at the gates!)
Low pay.
And one PC, who does combat often and is a tremendous target, dies and they lose everything they've put into it. All seniority is gone. There are no transfers or retention of what might be years-long work available.

It is, almost not even arguably, the absolute worst job in Armageddon. Something needs adjustment.

Quote from: Windstorm on September 24, 2024, 01:50:21 PMNo free food.
No free water.
No barracks.
No hub for their work.

They're typically given access to the AoD barracks for those things.

Quote from: Roon on September 24, 2024, 01:57:49 PM

Quote from: Windstorm on September 24, 2024, 01:50:21 PMNo free food.
No free water.
No barracks.
No hub for their work.

They're typically given access to the AoD barracks for those things.

Your info's out of date, love!

They get none of it. None.

Once again, we're encountering the same issue—people mistake their assumptions for facts.

To clarify, a Templar's aide works directly for the Templar, not for the ministry or the broader Templarate. Why, then, would they have access to military barracks? There are exceptions, of course, but those are rooted in IC circumstances (FOIC).

As for Food/Water/Hub access, it's a similar situation. These things have gone through multiple iterations, including recently, and much of it depends on the specific Templar an aide serves. The baseline today is different than it was in the past, largely due to IC work. Yes, imagine that—IC actions can actually change the game world! Who would have thought?

Many of you seem focused on the coded aspects of gameplay, which has become common today as more people lean toward meta approaches. But what about the IC and RP opportunities? You're working for a Templar, after all! A commoner can rise to an impressive social status that few can attain (look at Senior GMH Agents, Militia Lieutenants, or Byn Commanders), and that's before considering the influence of the Lord or Lady they serve. And with the glass ceiling raised now? They can rise even higher.

The success of an aide is often directly tied to the success of the Templar or noble they serve, creating a fascinating dynamic. If their superior falters and lacks social clout, the aide's prospects diminish as well. But if their Lord or Lady excels, so does the aide's standing.

It's also important to note that new hires don't start as aides—they begin as servants and have to earn their way up.

Noble aides do have a more stable and less risky role compared to Templar aides, but from a coded perspective and RP one. Aiding a Templar is essentially "aide on hard mode," but it can be incredibly rewarding for those up to the challenge.

I mean, sure we can harp on theoreticals and how different people see these same opportunities and there can be endless "but it COULD be this way" but the fact is, no one is trying to get these prestigious jobs that lack any basic, realistic features for making play of them actually convenient and less tedious to a degree that even Byn Runners have.

Because from the most basic standpoints, they aren't desirable. People are doing almost anything but.

I encourage you to try it out yourself, have your schedule crowded, and have to take time out to go.. grind up the coin via some side gig to buy food and water or find a place to do simple meetings from your supposedly prestigious occupation in which you have no support whatsoever.

Theoreticals and could-bes really just don't stand up against the actual facts of how lacking the whole arrangement is.

That was one of the points that I tried to politely make. You assume that your perception is reality and go so far as to state "...against the actual facts of how lacking the whole arrangement is".

I would much rather just say FOIC because, really, you should. But in an age where people are posting about what branches what and how to twink I'll cave in a little bit; you're wrong. They can have access to free food, water, and meeting locations. If you didn't see that for a character that you may have played, or wherever you get that idea from, that's something to work out in character because there were probably IC reasons.

I've been around a really long time and don't really post much outside of clan boards but I see this very consistency and I have for decades - people get really stuck in an anecdotal fallacy. I can't estimate how often I see someone post something as "facts" but they are just plain wrong but it is rather common.

They really do get stuck in anecdotal fallacy, you're right!

This whole thread for example exists because people aren't taking aide jobs and you're telling everyone "No, it's your fault, everything's fine!"

When's the last time you played an aide, or a templarate aide?

I don't recall ever saying, "No, it's your fault, everything's fine!" Could you show me where I may have said or implied that? It seems like a red herring to me.

You made some statements that weren't accurate, and I responded by elaborating in what I believed was a polite and constructive manner. If I'm not mistaken, beyond mentioning that playing an aide to a Templar is essentially "aiding on hard mode," I didn't really inject my personal opinion into the discussion. I believe I stuck to factual statements—though I could be wrong.

For clarity, my personal opinion is that playing a Templar's aide is a challenging role, and it's certainly not for everyone. It demands patience, creative thinking, political savvy, and a thorough understanding of the documentation, particularly with regard to social and cultural dynamics. However, it can also be incredibly rewarding, especially if you shift your focus from coded mechanics to the richness of the RP experience.

You're shifting between the "could-bes" and the anecdote du-jour yourself now is the problem, and from your lack of answer I feel like I have to suggest that you're probably not a player of aides yourself, but sort of just speaking from the place of a third-person supporting the status quo instead of from experience.

For clarity, I'm speaking from a long stretch of personal experience across multiple characters and citing some very real problems with why nobody else winds up doing this job that - again, this thread exists for a reason - no one wants. "There is no problem, you're personally doing something wrong" is not an answer to what certainly seems to be a community problem, not some isolated one.

Aides aren't, and have almost never been, very desired roles. There's things that could improve them; I offered suggestions! Playing defense based on a presumed anecdote for a perspective outside of your personal experience for a visible problem that's almost always existed and continues to at present is just a pretty odd position to take.

If you think aides and being an aide - especially a templarate aide at present - is great, I encourage you to give it a whirl yourself.

Your assumption about me is incorrect. I have a rather intimate understanding of the dynamic over the last 25 years or so having written documentation, played aides, templars, nobles, and from other perspectives as well.

Once again, I was merely addressing the incorrect information you shared and offering clarity. Some individuals simply dislike being proven wrong and tend to become defensive, even when we're aiming for the same outcome. At this point, I concede; invicta pertinacia.