I am not trying to invalidate anyone's opinions. I am just voicing my own. On the other hand, I now got Manonfire's concern. It will probably feel weird to me as well when I see that branching spell on my own.
Aside from this topic, I love how the game turned out to be. Last year I was bored as hell in the game. Now there are a lot more players to interact with. Thanks to the staff and all the players who are committing their precious time to this awesome game.

Quote from: manonfire on June 23, 2024, 11:42:36 AMDon't get reductive because I've only played a single class.

You're right, that was a bit snarky of me, my apologies.

Quote

QuoteDon't get reductive because I've only played a single class.

You're right, that was a bit snarky of me, my apologies.

It's okay I still love you.

After trying two different of the guilds, I'm very confused as to why they've all lost 30% of their starting spells and had their branching mean longer. I love elementalists, the lore, the flavor, and their utility that mundanes can't give is the appeal. I like that they're not good at mundane parts, that's the point, but burying a bunch of some of the core parts of certain elements behind branching doesn't feel like a very fun decision?

Like, I understand if elementalists were getting too strong too fast in the past, but being punished for the sins of past players does always suck. Elementalists have the most mind-numbing grind out of any playstyle in the game, and increasing it to the point where certain fullguild mages don't even start with any spells that allow them to actively take part in the game was a decision I don't quite understand.

It's probably the only change to the game in season zero that I've actively disliked. Knowing the grind you have ahead of you as an elementalist is a little stomach-churning, and I can imagine it putting people off. Because again, elementalist grinding is probably the least enjoyable thing in the entire game.

Okay, so my experience with magick is limited compared to plenty of you. But, to me, the whole "sense of discovery" thing sort of is a bit lost when it relates to how much and how often you've casted the same spell over and over again, probably just isolated and not in a particularly fantastical way.

Unfolding a spell list even when I did it and it sounded like a shorter trip was a pretty boring grind not much different or more fun than the endless joy of sparring. The saving grace was that it didn't take so punishingly long. It did stop at some point, and you got to go use your cool toys in cools ways and get into cool things.

If spells have been made less functional from the start, it would seem like you've just made magickers more boring and isolated at the start for a longer period of time.

Unfortunately, this is further compounded by the fact that players are more or less forced into being full guild magickers. Magick is now all they can do, and now it takes much longer for them to be able to do anything fun, powerful, or interesting with it?

It's great they have more social freedom, that's a big thumbs up. But now they can only really do magick, and they have to jump through hurdles of grind. It's actually comparable to being a fighting PC now, and not in a good way, but in that you have to grind out for dozens hours before you get to do the thing you made the PC able to do.

I like to be productive, so here are some solutions.

1. Provide advanced start for magickers.
2. Move more functional stuff back to the start of the branching trees again.
3. Either remove the gigantic penalties for subguild magick or take them off of being special app only.

That said, we're like a week in. So who knows? But fighting PCs have been given ways to avoid The Grind. Players of magickers aren't going to like this any better than they did.

About New Magick Guilds; On tabletop RPGs, I like ADnD mages more then later ones. The idea of being much less powerful in the beginning but turning out to be one of the strongest in later stages makes me excited if nothing else. In some sense it naturally creates a part of "hero's journey". I guess it can easily help PC's personality to evolve as well.

On Crafters; The economy of the game and PC distribution is still very new. Even though I like the idea that some craftable armors, weapons, etc. to be sold in limited number in NPC shops, crafters always make good money in game. Crafting system is refined so much in years and it's harder to get a wealthy PC right now, but still not that difficult.

Active Clans: Maybe it's only me but I enjoyed seeing PCs trying to form relationships and groups themselves without any Storyteller support.

As an off-time player coming and going into the game, in last 20+ years I have never seen online number of players this high.

Quote from: Gaare on June 23, 2024, 03:20:39 PMIn some sense it naturally creates a part of "hero's journey". I guess it can easily help PC's personality to evolve as well.

Apologies, and I don't mean to be aggressive but I have to address this.

It's not a hero's journey. In other games you're out doing things, slaying monsters, solving puzzles, so on and so forth, with your magicker and their little party before they're super powerful. When you're starting out you still have a fireball, just a little one.

In Armageddon, once you get the fireball it's soon REALLY POWERFUL but if you have to play for 100 hours of sitting there alone making the same input on a timer like a cubicle slave doing data input before you get to do anything fun, it's kind of just stamping a boring grind on something that people have traditionally turned to to avoid the boring grind.

Also, I don't mean to be overnegative. Overall, the game is doing great but I still believe, strongly, in tackling problems while they're small and new rather than sitting on them. The population is great, the staff is great, thanks to everyone being a part. My style of communication can seem pointed and critical but I always mean well by it.

Yeah, the issue with magickers is not really the length of time that it takes to do anything, but the method. I absolutely wish being a magicker meant unfolding the secrets of your element, going on adventures with a group of people and generally experiencing the game world.

No, becoming powerful as a magicker means sitting in a room, pressing a command over and over again. It's not comparable to dungeons and dragons. The other issue is that practicing your magic involves using up all of your mana, so you can't be doing it while also doing other stuff. After all, as a full guild, magick is the only thing you have.

Quote from: Usiku on June 23, 2024, 04:06:22 AMI would be interested in hearing specifically from players who are currently playing crafters and finding it difficult —what those difficulties are and what would make things easier and more fun for you. Please feel free to send in a request titled "Crafting Conundrums," and I will give it some serious thought about what we can do in the short term.

For me, it's been alright and I have no problems to complain about; the only thing I could ask for is better documentation at the GMH forums about how the route of someone who actually wants to craft and actually wants to sell stuff might look like. More clarity on the docs basically. But honestly, for me, it's been alright. As you say, it depends on the leader.

I want to point out that while some players seem to play magickers alone in a room, like a cubicle worker, repeating the same actions over and over until they "get good" and then go do stuff, there are many players who don't play magickers like that. These players enjoy and explore the process, engaging with each 'session' their PC spends developing their connection with their element. They go on journeys and adventures, using and expanding their magic along the way. There are people who play magickers like this, and they seem to have a great time role-playing their magicker. Because it isn't about quickly becoming a powerful magicker; it's about the journey and what you do with it. Those players tend to also think magickers are the easiest to improve. If the magick part of your magicker PC is just a backdrop for something else, rather than the main event of the concept you want to explore, then yeah, it might feel less than. I feel like players thrive in this game the most when they play concepts they enjoy the journey for, rather than concepts where they just want to get as strong as possible as quick as possible.

With that in mind, we do have some pretty exciting things in store for magickers who do engage with the journey.

Quote from: Usiku on June 23, 2024, 04:47:05 PMI want to point out that while some players seem to play magickers alone in a room, like a cubicle worker, repeating the same actions over and over until they "get good" and then go do stuff, there are many players who don't play magickers like that. These players enjoy and explore the process, engaging with each 'session' their PC spends developing their connection with their element. They go on journeys and adventures, using and expanding their magic along the way. There are people who play magickers like this, and they seem to have a great time role-playing their magicker. Because it isn't about quickly becoming a powerful magicker; it's about the journey and what you do with it. Those players tend to also think magickers are the easiest to improve. If the magick part of your magicker PC is just a backdrop for something else, rather than the main event of the concept you want to explore, then yeah, it might feel less than. I feel like players thrive in this game the most when they play concepts they enjoy the journey for, rather than concepts where they just want to get as strong as possible as quick as possible.

With that in mind, we do have some pretty exciting things in store for magickers who do engage with the journey.

Reading between the lines a little, I definitely love this answer, and I've definitely made a journey of it before myself.

Admittedly, it IS my favorite way of doing things, but that was under somewhat spectacular circumstances. I made a lot of that journey and I did enjoy it immensely. When it's possible, I surely recommend it. But at least in the past I don't think for most players it was a reasonable expectation. Maybe times have changed, for sure!

But, doing it that way and having that expectation is kind of putting a lot on the staff and in the hopes of the staff really noticing you, facilitating it, and also you really being willing to take some wild risks in the process.

If this is more becoming the norm over the course of seasons I'd be overjoyed myself and excited for the possibilities of magickers. I guess I just worry that a lot of people wind up being or feeling excluded when they don't have much that's obviously useful to add, and magickers without a lot of function, because they're full guild now, are at least codewise a bit narrow of focus. Their usefulness being kicked down the road very far is going to affect people who don't play at certain hours or wind up engaged with the plot, and we have a LOT of players at present.

But still, I love your answer and that you took the time to give it. Thank you.

Quote from: Windstorm on June 23, 2024, 03:33:00 PM

Quote from: Gaare on June 23, 2024, 03:20:39 PMIn some sense it naturally creates a part of "hero's journey". I guess it can easily help PC's personality to evolve as well.

Apologies, and I don't mean to be aggressive but I have to address this.

It's not a hero's journey. In other games you're out doing things, slaying monsters, solving puzzles, so on and so forth, with your magicker and their little party before they're super powerful. When you're starting out you still have a fireball, just a little one.

In Armageddon, once you get the fireball it's soon REALLY POWERFUL but if you have to play for 100 hours of sitting there alone making the same input on a timer like a cubicle slave doing data input before you get to do anything fun, it's kind of just stamping a boring grind on something that people have traditionally turned to to avoid the boring grind.

Also, I don't mean to be overnegative. Overall, the game is doing great but I still believe, strongly, in tackling problems while they're small and new rather than sitting on them. The population is great, the staff is great, thanks to everyone being a part. My style of communication can seem pointed and critical but I always mean well by it.

Excellent point. I haven't think this issue from that point. Probably because of my lack of experince, I always felt even at the beginning of the game, magickers have something useful in their belt. I really can't remember previous Full Krathi list (Maybe I played one many years ago), and obviously I don't know what they begin with it right now. In any case, if starting spells for a full-guild mage is rather useless like cantrips then that's another issue. Cheers.

i think a fix to 99% of the game's problems would be making rentable warehouses and having creating player clans as simple as owning one then sending in a request tbh
would tie in nicely with the clan bank accounts

Quote from: AKawaiiBear on June 23, 2024, 06:37:35 PMi think a fix to 99% of the game's problems would be making rentable warehouses and having creating player clans as simple as owning one then sending in a request tbh
would tie in nicely with the clan bank accounts

It's been made extra easy, genuinely. I'd say pursue it in game, and it's possible within a week.

Quote from: AKawaiiBear on June 23, 2024, 06:37:35 PMi think a fix to 99% of the game's problems would be making rentable warehouses and having creating player clans as simple as owning one then sending in a request tbh
would tie in nicely with the clan bank accounts

Staff have actually been very chill about this and almost encourage it. Kudos to Usiku. It's very easy if you have it as a goal!

I'm going to preface this with how I didn't expect to ever play this game again. So my main 'good thing' is that there seems to be a real effort toward institutional change on the part of staff, which I had felt in interactions through the Discord and in speaking with staff members privately. My main concern is that the positivity and energy will break into overworkedness and defensiveness upon crashing into the wall known as The Actual Players, who are often as persnickety and crotchety and opinionated as the residents in a VA retirement center. I say this fondly, as An Actual Player myself (and A Jaded Veteran on top!).


As far as my own review of particulars rather than grand, sweeping philosophical things. Good things:

1. Lots of energy. The fresh start has things feeling much less stagnant and it feels easier to 'break in' to than rolling a new character in a city where 90% of the population already has cliques. This is probably affected by higher player numbers, even at my off-peak playtimes.

2. There seem to be efforts to involve indies in developments by PCs in leadership. Thank you, PCs in leadership.

3. Animations. It's nice to see them outside the context of a sponsored role superior giving you tasks or yelling at you. It reminds me of the days that Vennant would sometimes be animated for no reason.

Obviously, there's a lot positive to be said about the facelift of the in-game areas themselves. There has been a whole lot of work done on the rooms and clear thought and direction put into the jump-forward. The effort to draw players together and promote interaction between formerly stratified is working, and I've enjoyed the breadth of RP I have seen on IC prejudice issues. Lots of love has been poured on the old bones, and it shows.


My pain points:

1. Off peak still feels very off peak. With a notable exception, there is limited clan/leadership stretch into certain times of day, despite having player numbers in the 20s and low 30s.

2. I have trouble finding the information that I need. I was recently trying to find City Elves PSA that I remembered coming out in the Seasons Information section, but after some time on the struggle bus, I found it in staff announcements. There are so many pinned posts about so many disparate topics that the staff announcements area is a little hard to navigate.

3. I've forgotten many of the commands and the game does not always help you. It seems like some of the feedback on missing command information has been improved, but some things like offering a ticket to a stablemaster or buying water from the waterseller don't give good feedback about what you're doing wrong. I have certainly 'give'n obsidian to the Mines Office and been confused when nothing happened. Since these aren't bugs or typos, I'm not really sure how to point them out without being a pain in the ass.


Overall, it feels like there is a lot of promise, and I'll be sticking around to see how things shake out while I have time to play. I have my fingers and toes crossed that things will continue to trend positive. Thanks!

Quote from: val on June 23, 2024, 08:39:36 PMI'm not really sure how to point them out without being a pain in the ass.

When explaining to staff these sorts of pain points I experience with the game I generally don't mind being a pain in the ass about it if there's no other way. It's going to be a pain in my ass forever unless it gets fixed.

Quote from: Throwaway on June 23, 2024, 10:06:37 PM

Quote from: val on June 23, 2024, 08:39:36 PMI'm not really sure how to point them out without being a pain in the ass.

When explaining to staff these sorts of pain points I experience with the game I generally don't mind being a pain in the ass about it if there's no other way. It's going to be a pain in my ass forever unless it gets fixed.

The full quote starts with "Since these aren't bugs or typos." It's a mechanics issue, not a philosophy issue. In other words, if there's a place to note something that could use improvement but isn't a bug or typo, other than posting about it in the code suggestions forum, I'm not aware of it.

I don't want to be a pain in the ass by creating 20 GDB threads about minor issues. If you know a method for bringing these minor suggestions to the right attention, I'd appreciate the tip. Thanks!

Quote from: val on June 23, 2024, 11:11:47 PM

Quote from: Throwaway on June 23, 2024, 10:06:37 PM

Quote from: val on June 23, 2024, 08:39:36 PMI'm not really sure how to point them out without being a pain in the ass.

When explaining to staff these sorts of pain points I experience with the game I generally don't mind being a pain in the ass about it if there's no other way. It's going to be a pain in my ass forever unless it gets fixed.

The full quote starts with "Since these aren't bugs or typos." It's a mechanics issue, not a philosophy issue. In other words, if there's a place to note something that could use improvement but isn't a bug or typo, other than posting about it in the code suggestions forum, I'm not aware of it.

I don't want to be a pain in the ass by creating 20 GDB threads about minor issues. If you know a method for bringing these minor suggestions to the right attention, I'd appreciate the tip. Thanks!

You can use the IDEA command in game.

Quote from: val on June 23, 2024, 11:11:47 PMI don't want to be a pain in the ass by creating 20 GDB threads about minor issues. If you know a method for bringing these minor suggestions to the right attention, I'd appreciate the tip. Thanks!

Idea or typo both work! If you have a bunch of little things like, I couldn't find the help file for X or the syntax for Y really isn't obvious and so on - you can always throw them together into a request too. Thank you for your feedback.

Quote from: val on June 23, 2024, 08:39:36 PMMy main concern is that the positivity and energy will break into overworkedness and defensiveness upon crashing into the wall known as The Actual Players, who are often as persnickety and crotchety and opinionated as the residents in a VA retirement center. I say this fondly, as An Actual Player myself (and A Jaded Veteran on top!).

In my official capacities, might be a good time to note: the commitments from staff for seasons are matched by an expectation from players to also step up.

We've been asked to meet a higher bar in how we engage with staff and each other.

So it's worth reflecting on the game and how it is running, but *also* what we've personally done to make the community and game a fun and welcoming place for newbies, and a game people *want* to staff.

Quote from: adri on June 23, 2024, 10:33:08 AMI feel like role calls for mercantile GMH family members would certainly help. If you have blooded Dealers and Merchants, they could oversee GMH sales and act as supporting characters to the already present Agents. It also allows for a bit of overlap in playtimes as leaders go and you'd have a backup should an Agent store or die for whatever reason. This would at least make things a bit more fluid and provide junior leadership roles and jobs for crafters (newbies, especially).

The stalls could sell essentials but lack specialty items and then you're back to the indie hunter reliant economy of old. With the new freedom afforded to leaders in general (less OOC red tape), I feel like it'd be a good thing. As someone who truly enjoys crafting, playing a Kuraci dealer was one of my favorite roles ever despite the occasional frustration. Maybe I'm in the minority on that!

(Submitting this in a request but also here, for feedback. Maybe it's a huge mistake and there's a million reasons why!)

That's essentially the old system. These roles were very hard to fill and essentially unavailable more often than not because the player died/stored/stopped logging in/was outside your time zone. Need a bow because there's nothing with the pull you need at stores or some specialty item? Tough luck, you're not getting it this year. We tried that, it didn't work.

I really like the availability of items in NPC shops. It's great as an off-peaker and it makes sense.

PC's love unique items, so I think PC merchants will always have a market. NPC shops are expensive, so PC's should be able to undercut as well. Finally, with the new quality system, if you're a PC merchant who can sell VG+ weapons, you will be more than fine. High quality weapons are still relatively hard to come by.

There's lots of cool other stuff that I like. Travel feels more fun, and more dangerous, and the new road(s) are great for new players who don't have a mental map of the game world. Mostly, the staff very intentional approach and commitment to good leadership, inclusivity, freedom and fair-play is noticed and will be the difference maker for giving us a shot at sustaining the growth in player base.

Quote from: roughneck on June 24, 2024, 06:38:16 AMPC's love unique items, so I think PC merchants will always have a market. NPC shops are expensive, so PC's should be able to undercut as well. Finally, with the new quality system, if you're a PC merchant who can sell VG+ weapons, you will be more than fine. High quality weapons are still relatively hard to come by.

This was our thinking too and all of this was by design, so I'm glad someone noticed! 

I might also suggest.... even if your PC crafter can't find something to sell to another PC... they MAY be able to use their connections (haggle) and get the price of what someone DOES want down a bit.

So maybe they want that 1500 coin cuirass at Salarr. They don't want what you make. But maybe you can sell them the same Cuirass for 1000 and still make a profit.