Quote from: mansa on December 05, 2023, 07:50:02 PMOne of the major things that happened when Armageddon 2.0 was announced, was a shift towards players making their characters "surviving the upcoming end-of-the-world".  This was accelerated by the Staff by bringing new plots to bring the end of the world.  The tone of the game shifted and players changed how they roleplayed their characters, and started to act uncharacteristically.

There also was a decision to allow players to play characters, classes, and roles that they were putting off for a later date - more magickers, sorcerers, and mindbenders.  This upset the balance, in addition to all the new end-of-the-world plots, that shifted gameplay to be exciting, but also had characters that were overpowered and overpowering.

Question:
How will you prevent such events from happening in the near future?

How will you change the current methods of implementation so that you can reach the projected timelines?

How will you prevent such events from happening in the near future?

Players interested in participating in the current timeline with a specific character concept are more than welcome to do so. All existing rules and regulations regarding special applications and sponsored roles will remain unchanged as we approach the closure of this version of the game. In cases where players deliberately create characters for disruptive, griefing, or trolling purposes, our staff will be vigilant and take necessary measures to prevent any such issues from arising.

How will you change the current methods of implementation so that you can reach the projected timelines?

While I wasn't part of the staff during Arm 2.0, my understanding is that they encountered significant challenges, primarily because they undertook an extensive overhaul by building a new code base, introducing new races, classes, rooms, and more. The sheer magnitude of the undertaking, coupled with the attempt to maintain the existing Arm 1.0, led to significant difficulties, and as we all know, Arm 2.0 did not succeed. In our current approach, we are opting for a more focused strategy—shrinking rather than rebuilding from scratch. The dedicated time during the game shutdown will ensure a more successful transition.

This sounds like a lot of work with a lot of ways it could go wrong. Is there a back up plan in case staff isn't able to implement this seasonal thing or if it just doesn't work out as planned?

What happens to the game's various code and documentation in case this doesn't work out and the game shutters? Will the current staff release it?

Character wipes? Thanks for all the fun times Armageddon. Been playing here for over twenty years, and with no opportunity for longevity, the game's direction won't be for me. I've had a beloved character I spent countless hours forced stored when Tuluk shut down, and now I have another beloved character I'm going to lose him as well?

I know it's not an airport and don't need to announce my departure, but it's fair so the players who know me know what's happened to my character.

All the best everyone.

Evilone/Centurion out.

Oh, one last thing. 2 out of the 4 big RPI's in my time of playing that have tried to shut down and change direction, never opened again.

Uhhh...no thanks. Character wipes? Every PC has a time limit?

Good luck everyone who remains.

I'm not really interested in playing events that have already passed, they will always end the same way with the PCs as observers and it sounds like a LOT of work for staff. But I could see how certain players would enjoy this. I hope it goes well for those who continue to play when this change takes place.

meanwhile, whatever left of Armageddon's old sprit:



By everyone, staff & players alike. I think my journey is over, it's been a great 23 years. I don't have much regrets.

This has got to be a joke.. 3 decades worth of a game that staff were only saying a few weeks ago 'we have loads of unique new log ins and feel confident in the changes we have come up with for karma', before dropping this nuclear bomb.
The karma change didn't go down very well with many.. this just a killswitch.

Questions :

Where is the vote on this to your current playerbase?

Where is the talks about this being an option before you pulled the trigger, to your current player base?

Do you even CARE about your current playerbase?  To people that have been playing this game for years? To not value their opinions to even ASK if they want this?

If you want to do such a brutal change, why not open another server to do this little idea of yours to see it works instead of literally destroying everything many of us love??

What on earth was the point in putting so many rolecalls out recently???
To set people up, and then slap them with 'but you only get it for a month before we wipe it haha!'
Not to mention everyone playing current beloved characters, long lived characters, and telling them btw they are gunna be entirely wiped and gone next month!

There is literally still 2 rolecalls out asking for nobles and a Salarri!!!

Seriously..

Would you consider shorter seasons which each take place in a smaller part of the game world? 3 or 4 months so that players can sit out a season

As a player who specifically only plays long term characters with long term goals, this is heartwrenching and extremely discouraging

 

Will be answering some questions from this thread shortly.

I think this is my first time posting on the forums ever, though I doubt this makes much of a difference.

Here's my suggestion: Instead of this massive across the board change. Have staff focus on certian areas of the game every 4 months. For 4 months, it's Allanak, for 4 months, it's Tuluk.

You don't need to have plots going in every single area of the game constantly because players make their own plots and their own stories. This allows you to focus on one area of the game and consolodate your staff power.
It's basically what you're going to be doing next year but without killing off all the players and forcing your staff to write up new lore constantly for each season. Players can still go around and making their own plots while staff focus on the big stories and world/area changing plots to a specific area.

Quote from: CirclelessBard on December 05, 2023, 07:54:32 PMHas there been any consideration towards holding a Session Zero between seasons to set player expectations for the next season, allow players to consider group roles (e.g. family roles), and things like that? If not, is it something staff would potentially consider?

While we haven't firmed up exactly how we will do each season launch yet, this is something I have been mulling over specifically. To me it seems a no brainer that we will need some kind of 'session zero' period, perhaps a few days for folks in sponsored roles/set roles to gather OOC'ly to discuss and then a few days of IC experimentation and settling in before the doors are flung open fully. This is all purely me brainstorming at this point and it hasn't been discussed with the rest of the team yet, but seems obvious to me!

Quote from: papertiger on December 05, 2023, 07:57:18 PMWill we still be able to play things things resembling city characters if you guys have a focus say with the desert tribes? And for people who like more pve/exploration, are you closing those zones when you focus on city plots?

We will be endeavoring to make sure there is a bit of something for everyone in each season.

Quote from: Gravity on December 05, 2023, 08:17:18 PMIs there any way that this doesn't go ahead at this point? Has every other possible alternative been exhausted?

No and yes. To be frank, this is really our opportunity to try and give this game a new lease of life - otherwise it is simply circling the drain and we do not want to just sit here and play hospice care to something we care about if we think there are options to give it a better chance. We are presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements. We are already receiving complaints from sponsored roles that they aren't getting the support they need and plots have been left hanging for great swathes of time. Our current situation is absolutely unsustainable.

We didn't want to permanently close large portions of the game (a la Tuluk), we didn't want to permanently destroy large portions of the game that people love and destroy all the history and legacy, we didn't want to sit back and watch the game die a slow and painful death while the last remaining staff just fielded endless complaints of dissatisfaction before finally shuttering, we didn't want to just shut down the game.

So this is what we are doing. This allows us to maintain the exact same world that you know and love, all of it, but we will just play bits of it at a time.

Quote from: Fredd on December 05, 2023, 08:28:02 PMBut there's marks made in this game by players who are no longer with us. And when I see them, I can remember my old friends. And I always wanted to leave one of those marks.

Those marks aren't going anywhere and you can still leave your marks.

Quote from: Krath on December 05, 2023, 08:29:50 PMWill the current characters, between now and shutdown, have a large effect on the future?

They absolutely can, yes.

Quote from: CirclelessBard on December 05, 2023, 08:42:38 PMI don't mean to spam the thread with questions, but more keep coming to mind:

Will the game season structure ever revisit time that has already passed in the current "timeline"? If so, what steps would be taken (if any) to prevent a temporal paradox?

Would the "glass ceiling" on roles be raised in any way to give players more agency during seasons? Allowing players to play red robes, senior nobles, and similar roles? (I see this was already answered. Reading comprehension fail on my part - sorry!)

Would seasons be tailored towards putting players' characters all on one team, or would there still be an emphasis on player-generated conflict and "MCB"?

The core of the seasons will be chronologically consistent, just moving between areas and story arcs (much like you would see across the seasons of a tv show). However, there are ideas for smaller 'spin off' seasons that might explore historical events. These are likely to be shorter seasons, the 6 monthers rather than the 18 monthers, since player agency to change the main outcomes will be limited.

Different seasons may have different set ups in terms of 'teams', though there should be a good mix of metaplot orientated conflict and still room for player driven conflict.

Quote from: askaran on December 05, 2023, 09:05:04 PMWhat's the first season's storyline going to be set in so we can start coming up with characters now instead of all rushing once it starts?

That's already outlined above!

Quote from: Master Color on December 05, 2023, 09:07:48 PMQuestion: What strategies will staff deploy to make sure the work gets done?

Reasonable expectations at the outset, utilising the core skillsets of our current staff members, clear prioritisation of requirements and general project management methodologies.

Quote from: Is Friday on December 05, 2023, 09:09:23 PMI'm pretty interested in checking out the game for its first season. Do y'all have a newsletter or something? Would be helpful to keep people abreast of the changes who might not check the GDB.

We will have an opt in newsletter yes. Nice to see you by the way!

Quote from: slipshod on December 05, 2023, 09:10:25 PMSo all existing plotlines have roughly 1 month to conclude?
Things that may have been in works for RL years will end, regardless.

Will staff be providing support in wrapping those plots up in a satisfying way, or be too busy with the new project?

Most of the staff will be focussing hard on the current players who have stories and plots that they want to move forward in the current timeframe and to try and establish impact for the future seasons. It will probably be more than one month, but that will depend on the current players and situation.

Quote from: slipshod on December 05, 2023, 09:29:42 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on December 05, 2023, 09:26:44 PMAs I'm understanding this - the "wrap-up" will consist of "to be continued" in the next "season."  For example, if you're playing Joe the hunter who has just finally discovered the secret cave his momma told him about just before she died - then during Season One, that cave has now been spellunked, and named Joe's Momma's Cave, and a treasure has been found containing clues to the location of Steinal. This Season One's function is for players to find Steinal. All thanks to YOUR character, who discovered the cave, back in -this- incarnation of the game.

How did you come to understand this?  i hope a staff person will still address my question.

Lizzie has the crux of it yes. Exactly this.

Quote from: Olafson on December 05, 2023, 09:47:47 PMHave to say this is extremely disappointing.  All that history, 30 years of it for me...

All that history isn't going anywhere. It will be right there in the game where it always was. This is the option that allows us to preserve the most history.

Quote from: Supified on December 05, 2023, 10:05:55 PMFirst, the revival will likely see a lot of players who all come in fresh at the same time, which can be jarring and something arm frankly has never had to deal with, not a biiig big deal, but still weird.

The second problem though is that the season by it's nature is going to recreate this soft death scenario, worse yet, people will know sooner and probably start reacting to that sooner too.  I expect because of the nature of this concept what Arm can expect is a big jump in players on season start followed by a slow exodus as the game progresses.  People dying normally will hasten this as the game will look less and less like you can "make a difference".  In other words, this winding down is going to be a constant problem and I suspect it might actually kill the game.

These are really great points and absolutely things we will be thinking about how to creatively resolve. Some spitball ideas are for initial sponsored roles/core roles - having a 'session zero' type week for them to get all comfy and cosy, perhaps allowing small waves of PCs to app in at a time, applying app'd for or potentially random skill bumps and boosts to PCs who start at the outset so everyone isn't a total newb at the same time. For the second issue.. Perhaps seeking to end the season with a 'bang' so to speak, a big event that creates something of a story cliffhanger for the next season but something that folks will want to be involved in even if it's with throwaway PCs, to allow players to animate NPCs in the final days if they don't have a PC or to allow high impact 'flavour' PCs to be app'd in towards the end or a combination of.. Or other ideas TBD! But we are thinking about it.

Quote from: Kestria on December 06, 2023, 03:50:15 AMDo you even CARE about your current playerbase?  To people that have been playing this game for years? To not value their opinions to even ASK if they want this?

We do care and this hasn't been an easy decision. I know what it's like to lose a long-lived PC so I can empathise with how players are feeling about losing their current PCs and arcs, but we are prioritising the future of the game as a whole. We have also been paying attention to what players have been saying they want for the past months and this is a solution that ticks off the 'most' wants.

Quote from: Lotion on December 06, 2023, 04:08:16 AMWould you consider shorter seasons which each take place in a smaller part of the game world? 3 or 4 months so that players can sit out a season

Absolutely, eventually. This would be another kind of 'spin off'.

I think it's understandable that some players might feel aggrieved but something had to be done. The game had clearly stagnated. I left nearly 10 years ago and came back about 5 months ago. I was expecting to find it tricky to get back into the swing of things but basically nothing had changed and was immediately back in the groove. If the game is slowly bleeding players then at some point in the probably not so distant future it's going to hit a critical point where people type Who, see X number of players in this very large world and they just quit en masse. Then there's no game at all for anyone anymore. So on that basis alone I think this new version is worth giving a shot. Getting more players into a more condensed area is something I've felt for a long time had to be done. It might all out work, it might not. If it doesn't we end up in the same place we're headed to now anyway.

I'm a little unsure about the seasons idea. I can see the idea behind it as it allows us to jump around and keep things fresh. I think if we are going the seasons route it'd be better to lean towards longer runs. For example, with my current character it's taken me about 5 RL months to get him into the position I'd envisaged he could get into. It'd probably be interesting to see some stats though about the length of character lives across the player population. I know in general we have some players who have had some really long lived PCs but in my experience it's relatively rare to see many players go for more than 12 RL months in a role. But I understand the wrench of not being able to go past a certain point no matter what you do. It's definitely a departure and I have mixed feelings on it.

I'd also have concerns about the world pop thinning out towards the end of seasons where some PCs die and people just can't be bothered to make a new PC before the next season starts. Maybe some thought could be given to having some short-lived flavour roles ready to go that players could drop into as required.

But overall I think it's good that something radical is being done to try and address the long-term future of the game. It's absolutely needed. I think a bit of self-sacrifice is required now for this to have a chance to work and for us all to have a game to play in the long run.

This feels consistent with the lack of respect for player advocacy, time, and creativity.

Communication and collaboration involving the playerbase would have been nice. I don't think 'seasons' included a playerwipe, (and while I do see the benefit of it, this only creates a new problem with long lived PCs).

Right now its a huge challenge to ousts entrenched, long lived PCS. Next, it will be "Oh, I didn't see you at the start of the season, you're probably not important" Oh, I died 3 months in, guess I'll wait until next season.

Lots of issues, and even if we could address the pros and cons as a community, players are again disregarded. Staff will be fine with less players, which means they would be fine with each and every one of individually leaving (unless you were told otherwise.)

Not a question but an Idea I came up with during in discord:

Every other season will be a long, continuing story, with "break" seasons in between, then you pick back up where you left off, if you want to.  The break seasons could be anywhere from a month to six months long before the main story picks back up.

Season one could end in the discovery of the ruins of Steinal, season two would be a flashback of what life was like there, and season three would pick back up with where season one left off, us oocly knowing was steinial was like and making those discorveries IG with our new or old PCs.

This would mitigate what to me is the worst part of the change, character wipes. You still have your mainline story character until you choose to store it, but you still get to "do something new" once or twice a year.

The draw of Arm to me as a kid and even as an adult is that it is a persistent world. The idea that you can jump in at anytime to see how the world is progressing (or not) and just dive in. This to me kills the idea of that, the spirit of an RPI lies in that concept whether there is a vision for that or not, taking the game offline I think is a mistake. I do not think that this will bring in more players, it will in fact drive away those players that seek that persistent world feeling, the feeling of a novel that is actively taking place. If the goal was to consolidate you will do so but you will also have a much smaller game, on a much smaller scale, that isn't an RPI anymore.

I'll ask the question again that were not answered, accompanied with the following.

Why not just.. leave the game  running and build what you're building on the test server, and then have a few days down time, not a few /months/?  Months of not being able to play at all is going to destroy the playerbase.


And then the others that were not answered :


Where is the vote on this to your current playerbase?

Where is the talks about this being an option before you pulled the trigger, to your current player base?

Why not open another server to do this little idea of yours to see it works instead of kill switching the main game?

What was the point in putting so many rolecalls out recently?

I came back after a multi year break, began working on a character and this is what happens?

This is the sort of idea someone completely divorced from reality would come up with.

I only care about Armageddon when I care about my character. You're going to force store my character?

This is completely insane.

Quote from: zilcho on December 06, 2023, 08:20:45 AMI came back after a multi year break, began working on a character and this is what happens?

This is the sort of idea someone completely divorced from reality would come up with.

I only care about Armageddon when I care about my character. You're going to force store my character?

This is completely insane.

This is an interesting point and I feel cuts to the heart of what is a problem with Armageddon in the first place . The game is both set up for the notion of character driven stories, that being the beating heart, but also for very short lived characters.  From the NPCS to the views on death and murder, to the games policies, they're all designed to make characters lives a flash in the pan.  Combine that with the very thick glass ceiling and you can see a problem with how if you play the game one way, it gets frustrating fast.

This new system is aiming, it would appear, to address this two ways.  One by forcing characters lives to be shortened, but also making their actions more meaningful.

I still think the idea needs more workshoping, but leaving arm as is from a staff point of view, appears to be death of the game anyway.  People who argue they should just let it die need to realize these staff maybe would rather not be hospice caretakers for a dying game and already are in a position where they can't find enough people to staff their roles. 

What people on this thread may need to wrap their heads around is that the option isn't between this and letting the game go on as it is for as long as it is, but rather this or the game closing sooner because staff do not have the will to continue staffing as it is.  Pure speculation on my part. 

I think, fundamentally, some people fail to grasp how connected some of us can get to our little characters and their little lives.

My character's life is no longer in my hands. My character will end in X months.

This drives a complete stake in the heart of the game for me. I remember characters who lived for in-game years and I aspired to be one of them. That's gone.

If the big reason for this happening is dwindling player numbers, how exactly is this going to attract or retain more people than our existing game? Doesn't this new direction make that far less likely given the unknowns? Are we doing more to advertise the game and bring new people in addition to changing the game at its core? What's the proof or analysis staff has done to come to a decision on this?

Quote from: zilcho on December 06, 2023, 08:42:45 AMI think, fundamentally, some people fail to grasp how connected some of us can get to our little characters and their little lives.

My character's life is no longer in my hands. My character will end in X months.

This drives a complete stake in the heart of the game for me. I remember characters who lived for in-game years and I aspired to be one of them. That's gone.

This x 100.

It's not about the average character life. Some of mine are laughably short. It's about being told how short that life will be no matter what the circumstances are.

While I can understand people feeling all sorts of ways about this change and the fact it was sorta popped on them out of seemingly nowhere.

I will say that we should probably limit this to Questions and Answers as intended, this almost feels like I should start handing out Psychologist calling cards with the way some of you are reacting to a game changing.

That said,

Onto the questions!

If time jump from season to season X is say 200 years into the future, could I play a descendent of my old character?  Say I start player clan hunting company X in a season, it flourishes throughout the years, can I come back as Merchant/Hunter Douche, the great grandson of my old character?  As a way to sorta continue the story?

While you're tinkering with skills for faster skill advancement, will you be working on magick and the RNG'ness of it?

Will we see major law changes throughout time?  Will we see an Allanak that doesn't give a fuck about spice?  Will we see a more built up Luirs with apartments and such, bordering on potential city feel that everyone has asked for now that we are shifting between hundreds of years of time?

Will Mantis/Gith and Halfling become playable races again?  If we shoot backwards hundreds of years, they should be I would think.

Those are my questions for now and while I'm not a moderator, I'd ask that we keep it to questions instead of telling us how hurt you are, that's not what this topic is for.

Quote from: zilcho on December 06, 2023, 08:20:45 AMI came back after a multi year break, began working on a character and this is what happens?

I'm in exactly the same position as you. But I think we need to step back and try to look at the bigger picture. There won't be a game to play in a while if we keep going as-is. Staff have pretty clearly indicated this without directly saying it. The player numbers are less than before. Staff numbers are less than before and they're over-stretched with the size of the world and players are complaining. And this is on top of the everyday player complaints which, from what @Pariah mentioned before after his time on the Player Committee, seems to be largely completely frivolous complaining. All this is clearly impacting Staff retention rates - who wants to volunteer to have to eat cups of shit every day? Sooner or later we'll reach the inflection point where the wheels will quickly come off completely and Arm just shuts. I'd bet that it's on the sooner side too. You can feel it in the game already. There's too much facade in the game world with not much underneath once you scratch at the surface because most of the Houses/Clans are under-populated.

Something kind of radical has to be done now. If they ask the players they'll get 100 different opinions, endless arguments, quit threats, etc. and it'll go nowhere for ages. Best they can do is make the best decision they can, start taking action now and then let the chips fall where they may. I'm sure they'll take on board some feedback from these threads but we need to move on to a new chapter where our cloth is cut accordingly if we want to continue having chapters at all.

I considered whether or not to post this, but in my short time with the game, I've come to really enjoy it- so as some feedback, I decided to proceed.

As someone who works in a role dealing both with projects at work, communication thereof, and relationship management, I have a few thoughts/comments for the staff as to this change.

1) I can tell that the staff is trying their best to breathe new life into a game they love.  No one undertakes such extreme measures without good intentions. I give kudos to the staff for being willing to make an attempt- that's already more than some people might do.

2) I have read very few definitives from staff on this.  I've read a lot of "our plans are" "we hope to" "we'll try and make sure there's something for everyone" - while again, well meaning, these statements have nothing concrete to them and only leave the players adrift in their thoughts. Without clear direction, with this big change, it is a natural inclination that people assume the worst. You have to LEAD them.

3) The game will live or die based on communication and relationship management: the announcement was made. This change is coming. This is definite.  Rather than tease what may occur in seasons 2/3/4/etc, triage needs to happen NOW. You are hemorrhaging and it is imperative that players somehow get invested in the change, or the downtime will be a death sentence for the game. Out of sight, out of mind/people will move on- and you've already pulled the rug out from under them.

4) I read there will be an Opt-In newsletter. I think this is an excellent move! And it should already be going. I assume this is the medium by which people will know when the game comes back up after the downtime.

5) The 'end of season' spiral is real- you're likely to see it between now and when the game is taken down to revamp it. I saw that staff posted some ideas to combat that. I would strongly suggest that such be given a priority. You can't address every player concern, I understand, though I highly suggest that commend someone compile a list of them and prioritize them, and begin to deal with those high-level items.


Comments to players:

1) Negativity doesn't help- and this is one of the last things anyone ever wants to see: something they love having something drastic done to save it. The staff are doing their best and trying to keep the game alive. Be supportive or be silent, unless there is something to be said with the goal to make this change better for all.



All in all, I wish the best for the game and truly hope this works.  I have my personal doubts about breathing new life into something that is effectively a very niche hobby and through such drastic steps, as it is a large departure of what made a thing enjoyable to begin with- especially with a player base that has aged with the game.

Quote from: zilcho on December 06, 2023, 08:42:45 AMI think, fundamentally, some people fail to grasp how connected some of us can get to our little characters and their little lives.

My character's life is no longer in my hands. My character will end in X months.

This drives a complete stake in the heart of the game for me. I remember characters who lived for in-game years and I aspired to be one of them. That's gone.

Your character's life is /never/ in your hands. It never was. It has always been in the hands of whoever or whatever is trying to kill you. If your character survived, then you had a lucky break. It might not be so lucky next time.

I think people are looking at this whole situation from the point of view of "my characters never die, I decide what happens to them, and I intend for them to live another 5 RL years." But that just doesn't happen. There are very rare and few outliers whose PCs lasted a long time. I've come close to playing an "ultra-rare" long-lived character. I've not yet gone over the 14-month mark though and I only know of four people who went over the 2-year mark.

Staff is suggesting a potential 18-month max between seasons. The odds of ANY character living 18 RL months even in the current version of the game is just over "none" and fully into the "slim" category.  For those who do have long-lived characters, it'll be awkward to start with a new one. But it is always awkward to start with a new one and as far as I know, all players of long-lived characters have played OTHER characters before their current one - so they have already experienced this awkwardness. That means they were willing and eager to get past that awkwardness the first time around. Otherwise they wouldn't /have/ their current long-lived character.

My loathing is of the down-time. It's exactly why I've asked if I can help build. It'll keep me involved in the game even while the game is shut down between seasons. In addition, I believe that additional builders can reduce that down-time. The more people working on the game when they're NOT also having to deal with plotlines, requests, wishes, etc, the quicker the game re-opens.