Read this important announcement:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60174.msg1101158.html#msg1101158

Here's a few questions that fellow staff asked when we first told them about this, so I thought I'd put them here:

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6 to 18 months isn't all that long for some people, going through the grind for such short periods kind of sucks.  Would you consider increasing how fast skills gain?

Yes, that's something we're considering.


How is this not just Arm 2.0 all over?

The difference is that Arm 2.0 was attempting to create a new game engine and a new world setting.  We are doing neither here.  We recognize that one of our strengths is our deep lore and history.  This allows us to keep that, and in fact, we can spend time more deeply exploring certain areas of it by focusing on it.


Would you consider running some skeletal version of the game during the downtime, to give player something to do so they don't lose interest?

We talked about it but decided against that idea.  One of the big reasons for the extended downtime is to give staff the ability to focus on preparing for the new game without the distraction of running the existing game.  Since this would be our first go at it, we want to be able to give it our full attention.


Will there be downtime between seasons?

Some, but we're uncertain exactly how much as of right now.  In my opinion, about one to two weeks between seasons should be the most.  We would want enough time for people to kind of reset their mind for the new season, but not too long to lose interest.


Why such a long downtime before the first season?

It's to give staff time to prepare and work on it without distraction from the current game.  The alternative would be for staff to ignore the current game in favor of the new, but that just means a bad experience for the current game, and we don't want that.  An extended downtime gives us the opportunity to put out what we hope to be a quality product.


Are you concerned that the initial extended downtime will mean losing players?

Yes, that is a concern and a risk.  Our hope is that the downtime gives people a break from the game and helps put a mental separation between the old and the new.  While we hope everyone returns, we are realistic and understand that may not be the case.  That said, we also anticipate this new model will help attract new players and may even entice some older players to return.


Is a season even going to be enough time for people to move up the ranks in an organization?

In addition to possibly increasing gain times on skills, we will investigate somewhat accelerated advancement as well as more options for advanced starts.  We will also be raising the glass ceiling wherever we can.  If someone can pull it off, we will allow the likes of player Red Robes, senior GMH members, senior nobles, senators, and similarly powerful positions in other groups.


If my character is going to die or get stored within 18 months, what impact can they really have?

With the previous question in mind, it is our vision to enable players the potential to impact the world in such a way that their legacy can live on in subsequent seasons.  Maybe Joe Salarr became so influential in season one, that during season two he's referred to commonly.

We know many of you will be concerned about legacy, the hundreds of pages of written documents, hundreds of NPCs and objects, etc. Nothing is being lost, and in fact most of what we have will be present in the various seasons.  Our vision is to continue the main timeline and storyline that we have been running for all these years.  It's just that focus will shift to different times and places in that same world. You may see books that your noble wrote still on the shelf in the estate.  You may see that the custom craft you submitted is still available.  Our lore and our world-building are amongst our greatest strengths, and we fully intend to lean into that.


If the game is going to take place in a smaller area, how will you handle the issue of people playing in or near the same areas?

We will be extending a greater amount of trust to the player base to abide by the rules we lay out, and to not use information from a previous character despite possibly being in a similar area.  If it happens, we will deal with the individual, and not engage in collective action.


It doesn't sound like you have a lot of information yet, why are you telling us this now without having much planned?

We have a lot planned already, more than we're communicating here, but the details are still being worked out.  But we thought it best to go ahead and inform the player base early instead of just dropping it with little warning later.  We will be releasing more information as we finalize it.


Character-wipe?  Does that mean karma too?

No, everyone keeps their accounts and karma levels, it's just a reset of characters for each new season.

I like it.  When should we expect it to take effect? This a it's gonna happen sometime mid 2024 or like before Christmas type thing.

Quote from: Pariah on December 05, 2023, 07:39:54 PMI like it.  When should we expect it to take effect? This a it's gonna happen sometime mid 2024 or like before Christmas type thing.

We'll go down for the changes early next year (shooting for January), down a couple of months.  So early Spring.

Biggest issue I have with this is character wipes at the end of every season basically pressuring people to not make characters towards the end of season. I personally wouldn't want to make a new character if I knew I only had 1-2 months to play said character. Lots of people play their characters for years so it's a weird choice.

Otherwise, good luck. I do love armageddon and I think it could use a breath of fresh air, as it's very obvious that Arm as it currently is feels like a super old system that's been patched and given make-overs here and there.

I do think it'd be nice to be able to play regular arm while we wait, even knowing that there'd be little to zero staff support.

One of the major things that happened when Armageddon 2.0 was announced, was a shift towards players making their characters "surviving the upcoming end-of-the-world".  This was accelerated by the Staff by bringing new plots to bring the end of the world.  The tone of the game shifted and players changed how they roleplayed their characters, and started to act uncharacteristically.

There also was a decision to allow players to play characters, classes, and roles that they were putting off for a later date - more magickers, sorcerers, and mindbenders.  This upset the balance, in addition to all the new end-of-the-world plots, that shifted gameplay to be exciting, but also had characters that were overpowered and overpowering.


Question:
How will you prevent such events from happening in the near future?



The estimated timelines for Armageddon 2.0 were grossly underestimated.  How will you change the current methods of implementation so that you can reach the projected timelines?

Has there been any consideration towards holding a Session Zero between seasons to set player expectations for the next season, allow players to consider group roles (e.g. family roles), and things like that? If not, is it something staff would potentially consider?

I'm very wary of what Mansa mentioned. On top of it, knowing there's going to be another reset every x amount of months seems to be something that will only encourage more of such gameplay as opposed to with it being open ended. Rather it be determined by how plots turn out as opposed to a hard stop that cannot be avoided. It would give people a reason to work together against some threat as opposed to just go hog wild against one another.

Too much pre-determinism will lead to a fatalistic attitude since it won't matter in the long term and damage RP. Even now I'm seeing this in another game that's got the same plan, more or less.

Will we still be able to play things things resembling city characters if you guys have a focus say with the desert tribes? And for people who like more pve/exploration, are you closing those zones when you focus on city plots?

Quote from: geminferno on December 05, 2023, 07:52:07 PMYeah, so quick question: why the fuck would you do a casting call when you knew you were going to do this?

One of the common, well I don't know if that's the right word to use, but let's say one of my complaints about staff has always been the slowness to do things.  So I sorta applaud them for going, "We are gonna do this." and not turning it into a huge circle jerk of conversation.  At the end of the day, they run the shit, we play it.

I have a feeling with this shift from all the red tape to just fuckin doing it.  There are gonna be some growing pains.

Quote from: Pariah on December 05, 2023, 08:02:51 PM

Quote from: geminferno on December 05, 2023, 07:52:07 PMYeah, so quick question: why the fuck would you do a casting call when you knew you were going to do this?

One of the common, well I don't know if that's the right word to use, but let's say one of my complaints about staff has always been the slowness to do things.  So I sorta applaud them for going, "We are gonna do this." and not turning it into a huge circle jerk of conversation.  At the end of the day, they run the shit, we play it.

I have a feeling with this shift from all the red tape to just fuckin doing it.  There are gonna be some growing pains.

I understand that, but this is pretty much a slap in the face to everyone who worked hard on their applications, been waiting patiently for word on the results and to find out their character may need to be stored in less than a year. Not to mention NO ONE had been notified or even consulted the community that it would effect.

Regarding the length of seasons: how would this be determined? Would it be preset, or would there be discussions between staff and players on starting a new season vs. extending the current one?

I don't post here often, if at all, but I can't help sharing why I think this will be a killing blow for Armageddon in the hope we can steer towards less drastic solutions.

Why not fix the current game?
At least the existing game, while not perfect, is a known quantity. We will almost certainly lose players from an extended downtime (which will 100% be longer than projected), and returning players are then forced to love something they've never seen and cross their fingers that it's going to be better than what we currently have? It seems like a tall order.

A lot of people have worked incredibly hard to get to where we are, staff and players alike - not least in the last year with a number of struggles. Why risk all of that now when we're on the right path?

The staff resourcing needed is massive.
Developing new seasons every year is going to be a tremendous drain on already stretched staff resources. New areas, bugs, player and staff docs, plotlines, new clans, changes to the request tool, new forums...I'm not sure that every impact has been considered here.

Progression and advancement.
Dozens of people play Arm regularly because they want to advance, create legacy, whatever. Whether it be skills, political, or social. The impact that this change has on that is being severely underestimated - not to mention everything that the game currently has will be lost

Smaller focus, smaller playerbase.
If we shrink the areas people play in, it drastically shrinks economies, politics, cultures, adventure, and thus, plots. We won't be giving the game a chance to flourish, but we're setting the foundations for a more compact playerbase.

Is there any way that this doesn't go ahead at this point? Has every other possible alternative been exhausted?

In summary, I wanted to point something out:

Quote from: HalasterYou could start a hot dog stand now and return to find it blossomed into an MMH.

This promise is being focused on as a big upside to the change, but how important is this really to people? Part of playing a game like this is the here and now - live, real consequences that have immediate impact. Even if actions do become legacy in other seasons (assuming they are in the future, not the past), who's to say that matters to the players playing now if they don't even like the season in question?

To me, this is the kind of decision that requires a community vote or, at the very least, a staff-player discussion so that we can hear some of the reasoning for this, and so that some of the player feedback beyond the GDB can be considered before a final decision is made.

Quote from: geminferno on December 05, 2023, 08:05:13 PMI understand that, but this is pretty much a slap in the face to everyone who worked hard on their applications, been waiting patiently for word on the results and to find out their character may need to be stored in less than a year. Not to mention NO ONE had been notified or even consulted the community that it would effect.

I totally see where you're coming from, I don't mean to dismiss your sentiment or whatever.  But if he would have posted a "Hey I got this idea" post it would have ended up the same way the Karma change did from Brokkr.  Shit isn't even changed yet and most everyone -hates- it.  So had he just posted a brainstorm of the idea or conversation piece on it, it wouldn't at the end of the day change anything really.

They still wanna do it, they are still the people pushing the buttons to make shit work, paying for the server internet, fixing it everytime I break it.  Fixing the twenty bugs I report a month etc etc.  Multiplied by let's say 40-50 "regular" players (People who log in regularly and not just those casuals that do it once a month.)

At some point, they just gotta shit or get off the pot and I think these changes they are making, are that shitting point.

Sometimes you just gotta make decisions the kids don't like because it's in the best interest of the household.

Quote from: Pariah on December 05, 2023, 08:17:49 PMI totally see where you're coming from, I don't mean to dismiss your sentiment or whatever.  But if he would have posted a "Hey I got this idea" post it would have ended up the same way the Karma change did from Brokkr.  Shit isn't even changed yet and most everyone -hates- it.  So had he just posted a brainstorm of the idea or conversation piece on it, it wouldn't at the end of the day change anything really.

They still wanna do it, they are still the people pushing the buttons to make shit work, paying for the server internet, fixing it everytime I break it.  Fixing the twenty bugs I report a month etc etc.  Multiplied by let's say 40-50 "regular" players (People who log in regularly and not just those casuals that do it once a month.)

At some point, they just gotta shit or get off the pot and I think these changes they are making, are that shitting point.

Sometimes you just gotta make decisions the kids don't like because it's in the best interest of the household.

I still don't like being slapped in the face and forced to store a character I planned to have for years. And yeah, everyone hated the karma change and they're right not to do go through with it. Community outrage kills games and I'm sure this won't bode well for many other players who are voiceless.

No reason to play between now and the closing, right?  All characters will be erased in a month or so.  Then a couple months (or more?) game closed?  Going to take strong support from current players, to hang around, for an unknown outcome in the spring.  I just hope the game survives these changes.

i'm literally playing one of my bucket list, and I'm going to lose it in a few months?

(i removed a long section here lamenting a bunch of stuff I've been pushing and have seen near complete, or actually complteted, only to now find out it wont matter at all and is all for nothing) (mostly to prevent mods from doing so for FOIC reasons)

Ah man. I Don't know how I feel about this. This is a clear downscaling of our game in a MAJOR way. I get it, it's hard to keep staff, ect ect ect.

But there's marks made in this game by players who are no longer with us. And when I see them, I can remember my old friends. And I always wanted to leave one of those marks. Now I can't. Now i'll never get to be a page on 'longest lived' where people wax poetic about some dude of mine that lived a rl year and won arm, because It will never happen again.

I would have rather seen changes simply take place in the metaplot itself, allowing players to enact real true change to the game world, via their own towns, cities, or even becoming great generals to take down the current powers of the metaplot.

Will the current characters, between now and shutdown, have a large effect on the future?

Quote from: Cowboy on December 05, 2023, 08:27:30 PMNo reason to play between now and the closing, right?  All characters will be erased in a month or so.  Then a couple months (or more?) game closed?  Going to take strong support from current players, to hang around, for an unknown outcome in the spring.  I just hope the game survives these changes.

Given track records with such things. There's a good chance it will close, and that will be the end of it. No more arm. A large part of our lives gone.

When I first ready the announcement, my brain assumed the Date was April 1. Wow. This feels painful, like finding out your partner is cheating painful. With the same finality.

I may be better able to express my feelings after some much-needed sleep.

I don't mean to spam the thread with questions, but more keep coming to mind:

Will the game season structure ever revisit time that has already passed in the current "timeline"? If so, what steps would be taken (if any) to prevent a temporal paradox?

Would the "glass ceiling" on roles be raised in any way to give players more agency during seasons? Allowing players to play red robes, senior nobles, and similar roles? (I see this was already answered. Reading comprehension fail on my part - sorry!)

Would seasons be tailored towards putting players' characters all on one team, or would there still be an emphasis on player-generated conflict and "MCB"?

Quote from: CirclelessBard on December 05, 2023, 08:42:38 PMI don't mean to spam the thread with questions, but more keep coming to mind:

Will the game season structure ever revisit time that has already passed in the current "timeline"? If so, what steps would be taken (if any) to prevent a temporal paradox?

Would the "glass ceiling" on roles be raised in any way to give players more agency during seasons? Allowing players to play red robes, senior nobles, and similar roles?

Would seasons be tailored towards putting players' characters all on one team, or would there still be an emphasis on player-generated conflict and "MCB"?

They did say they were raising the glass ceiling. Which is neat ofc.

But people have broken the ceiling before. So it's not anything that's majorly exciting. I can see the positives here, ofcourse. There are other games, like LOTJ that do this successfully. And it could be fun. But there's a lot being lost here.

A lot.

God, i was so happy when Tuluk reopened. And now, there's going to be whole rl years where I might not even get to play in it again.

Quote from: Cowboy on December 05, 2023, 08:27:30 PMNo reason to play between now and the closing, right?  All characters will be erased in a month or so.  Then a couple months (or more?) game closed?  Going to take strong support from current players, to hang around, for an unknown outcome in the spring.  I just hope the game survives these changes.

I'll be honest, it really does bum me out. I love my current character and had long-term plans for them. But this basically means I'm going to be force-stored and never see any of my character's friends again.

Quote from: Kavrick on December 05, 2023, 09:01:28 PM

Quote from: Cowboy on December 05, 2023, 08:27:30 PMNo reason to play between now and the closing, right?  All characters will be erased in a month or so.  Then a couple months (or more?) game closed?  Going to take strong support from current players, to hang around, for an unknown outcome in the spring.  I just hope the game survives these changes.

I'll be honest, it really does bum me out. I love my current character and had long-term plans for them. But this basically means I'm going to be force-stored and never see any of my character's friends again.

SO MUCH THIS.

What's the first season's storyline going to be set in so we can start coming up with characters now instead of all rushing once it starts?