With so many complaints about stealth and all the talk of reworking it... Forget about touching stealth in the way it inherently works.

Make some changes to scan. Make it so that 'scan' is always active, maybe rename it to something else such as perception. When you look into distant rooms or the room that you're in, you may or may not see something that is hidden. That should be how it always is, without needing to activate some special skill.

Add another skill that also relies upon your perception.

If you manage to spot a shadowy figure even once, then you have a skill that you activate.  Call it investigation or something. Once you successfully investigate that shadow, even at a distance, it will break the hidden thing's stealth and place it on a cooldown. For sake of playability, limit it to 15 or 20 seconds. If the investigated thing is a player, they will get an echo that they sense someone looking at them.

The problem of small-apartment ninjas would be fixed immediately with this.

At this point, this is really should be a quality of life thing. So many people are (or feel) inconvenienced.

With the number of complaints about stealth over the years, I unfortunately have to think that staff doesn't WANT to fix it, or doesn't see it as broken.  Because adjusting scan, adding other mechanics, tweaking stealth, there are so many ways to go about "fixing" it and they haven't.  So that makes me feel like this is one of those complaints that goes in one ear and out the other.

Literally cap stealth 5 points lower.

Then your +stealth gear will give parity with scan, rather than trumping invisibility when comparing with it against scan at max levels.

The biggest issue with scan versus stealth is that while scan and stealth are on a par, there are a ton of +stealth items and no +scan items. Drop the stealth cap and the +stealth items puts it back on a truly equal footing.

Quote from: dumbstruck on November 25, 2023, 07:57:13 PMLiterally cap stealth 5 points lower.

Then your +stealth gear will give parity with scan, rather than trumping invisibility when comparing with it against scan at max levels.

The biggest issue with scan versus stealth is that while scan and stealth are on a par, there are a ton of +stealth items and no +scan items. Drop the stealth cap and the +stealth items puts it back on a truly equal footing.

Having played the guild leader when Shabago removed almost all the +stealth bonuses to all the gear, and seeing +scan items be introduced to the game...

And seeing Miscreant's stealth proficiency be reduced..

I think this was already done in 2020.

+scan items introduced?  check.
give high scan to more subclasses?   check.
give high scan to more classes?   check.
-hide to miscreant?  check.
-sneak to miscreant?  check.
remove + to stealth abilities?  check.

Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2023, 08:22:07 PM

Quote from: dumbstruck on November 25, 2023, 07:57:13 PMLiterally cap stealth 5 points lower.

Then your +stealth gear will give parity with scan, rather than trumping invisibility when comparing with it against scan at max levels.

The biggest issue with scan versus stealth is that while scan and stealth are on a par, there are a ton of +stealth items and no +scan items. Drop the stealth cap and the +stealth items puts it back on a truly equal footing.

Having played the guild leader when Shabago removed almost all the +stealth bonuses to all the gear, and seeing +scan items be introduced to the game...

And seeing Miscreant's stealth proficiency be reduced..

I think this was already done in 2020.

Disagree.

Post moderated by MarshallDFX

Quote from: dumbstruck on November 25, 2023, 08:28:39 PM

Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2023, 08:22:07 PM

Quote from: dumbstruck on November 25, 2023, 07:57:13 PMLiterally cap stealth 5 points lower.

Then your +stealth gear will give parity with scan, rather than trumping invisibility when comparing with it against scan at max levels.

The biggest issue with scan versus stealth is that while scan and stealth are on a par, there are a ton of +stealth items and no +scan items. Drop the stealth cap and the +stealth items puts it back on a truly equal footing.

Having played the guild leader when Shabago removed almost all the +stealth bonuses to all the gear, and seeing +scan items be introduced to the game...

And seeing Miscreant's stealth proficiency be reduced..

I think this was already done in 2020.

Disagree.

Post moderated by MarshallDFX

I'd say the people who disagree are the people who choose to dump wisdom, or choose races that have less-than-stellar wisdom, or whose scan skill doesn't max as high as the stealth skill of the person they're trying to find, or the person they're trying to find is doing things in addition to simply hiding, that makes them harder to find than if they weren't doing those things.

I'd also say that I've noticed people hiding REALLY easily with my PC's scan skill. I've also had difficulty finding other people with it. I've also experienced the phenomenon of completely missing the existence of a hiding person throughout an entire scene. And so - my guess is that it's most likely working as intended.

I'd also say that if someone is sensing code abuse going on, it doesn't mean we need to nerf this, or bump that. It means the person doing the abusing should be reported.  Just because the code allows me to emote beating the living crap out of your character, doesn't mean I should. It also doesn't mean that if I do it anyway, that I shouldn't get in trouble for doing it.  It also doesn't mean we should remove the emote command. It just means - people who abuse the code should be reported, and held accountable for it.


 

Stealth is broken plain and simple. Lizzie, you are making an assumption that the people complaining are dumping wisdom. As to your observation, what was the race, class, and wisdom your pc had? And were you able to see a hidden elf pc? Dwarf? Human? Which one(s) Plural?

I am assuming, the problem, people are talking about are elves, because the agility modifier to Stealth is broken.

Quote from: Krath on November 25, 2023, 09:11:22 PMStealth is broken plain and simple. Lizzie, you are making an assumption that the people complaining are dumping wisdom. As to your observation, what was the race, class, and wisdom your pc had? And were you able to see a hidden elf pc? Dwarf? Human? Which one(s) Plural?

I am assuming, the problem, people are talking about are elves, because the agility modifier to Stealth is broken.

I'm not making that assumption. I'll quote my own post since it looks like you missed it. Please note the bolded parts, underlines, and italics for emphasis:

QuoteI'd say the people who disagree are the people who choose to dump wisdom, or[/b] choose races that have less-than-stellar wisdom, or[/b] whose scan skill doesn't max as high as the stealth skill of the person they're trying to find, or[/b] the person they're trying to find is doing things in addition to simply hiding, that makes them harder to find than if they weren't doing those things.

For some reason you can't use bold and underlined when quoting someone else's post, without some kind of wonky result.  But there it is, regardless.

As for who I play - humans and half-elves, and I can't remember ever having an AI wisdom, ever, except with a couple of characters who made use of coded effects to bump their naturally less-than-AI wisdom, several years ago.

Elves are hard to spot. If you're not an elf, and the elf has high wisdom, and high stealth, then odds are, you won't see them. That is - working as intended, if that's what's happening. If your enjoyment of the game revolves around being able to see elves who hide, then maybe - play only elves who hide, and put wisdom as a priority, or play characters who make use of coded effects to bump their less-than-AI wisdom.

make these changes
they already did
well, they didn't work. Why doesn't staff make any changes?

maybe i'm biased. or missing something. what IS the problem with stealth? are they killing people off with no repercussions in cheesy ways? ending story lines pointlessly?

The main issue with PVP stealth is that classes that are going to be using stealth will be prioritising agility when stealth scales with agility. On the other hand, the thing that versus it is scan, which scales with wisdom. I can't say for sure, but I doubt the average player is putting wisdom as their highest stat, especially if they're not a crafter/gick. So let me ask you, What wins? Average Human wisdom or Exceptional Elf agility? God forbid you're a dwarf/mul/half giant, good luck seeing shit then.

Sounds like they're escaping being killed and having THEIR story lines ended. That can't be fair. Villains and antagonists are supposed to be just loot pinatas.

Quote from: Kaathe on November 25, 2023, 10:32:48 PMmake these changes
they already did
well, they didn't work. Why doesn't staff make any changes?

maybe i'm biased. or missing something. what IS the problem with stealth? are they killing people off with no repercussions in cheesy ways? ending story lines pointlessly?

I mean if /I'm a sneaky elf/ is literally working better than /actual magick invisibility/ at keeping someone hidden, that seems broken.

And if it's not, then I'd love to see sneaky classes come up the karma tree or see illusion whirans scaled down it, since their most exploitative 'trick' is literally outclassed by mundane stealth consistently.

For me the problem is that it's inconsistent. Is magick magick or is stealth magick? Can we even just get them to work /equal/ at equal levels when paired against detection by other pcs?

Quote from: dumbstruck on November 25, 2023, 10:45:59 PMFor me the problem is that it's inconsistent. Is magick magick or is stealth magick? Can we even just get them to work /equal/ at equal levels when paired against detection by other pcs?

not my call, but please note you can combine them.

The only way to spot a sneaky elf is to be a sneaky elf. You can literally see magick invisibility with scan but cannot see mundane stealth with scan. Given that scan purports to counter /mundane stealth/ and not imagickal effects as its primary use, that makes no sense.

If this is not broken, it is a really bad design.

I know it's not your call @Kaathe and I know that the two can be combined, but honestly that really only makes the problem worse. I'm not advocating for magick stealth to be better. I'm asking for mundane stealth to actually be something that people can counter. I know you can't make that change and it seems sensible enough that I feel like (whether or not you actually do) if you were given the chance to have a say in it, you would make /some/ adjustment. Not necessarily one that I would favor. But something.

Is no one tired of exhausting mental gymnastics to pretend like inconsistencies make sense? It seems like a lot of people are. But I've been mistaken before.

Advanced stealth should have a niche in the game as well, buffing scan too much will hurt that.

I feel like scan is fine as it is right now but there should definitely be more +scan items, like hunting birds or whatever.

Not sure what a +scan item would look like in a city environment unless it was magickal.

I think adding a line in the docs would solve all the problems of "realism" or "sense-making" or "believability." Here's the line:

Elves have a biochemical makeup such that their atomic structure is able to mutate in a way that makes them easier to blend in with their surroundings, than any other creature unassisted by magick.

There. Problem solved.

I can imagine that an expert can blend in to their native environment better than some unpracticed gick with unexplainable invisibility who goes around silently somehow too. 

Magick is super powerful, but it also doesn't make a lick of sense.  The suspension of disbelief I have to do around it is always a higher load than with mundane stealth.  Everyone is different.

Quote from: Lizzie on November 26, 2023, 08:31:55 AMI think adding a line in the docs would solve all the problems of "realism" or "sense-making" or "believability." Here's the line:

Elves have a biochemical makeup such that their atomic structure is able to mutate in a way that makes them easier to blend in with their surroundings, than any other creature unassisted by magick.

There. Problem solved.

I do not think very many people besides yourself will find that to have any useful meaning.

Quote from: dumbstruck on November 25, 2023, 07:57:13 PMLiterally cap stealth 5 points lower.

Then your +stealth gear will give parity with scan, rather than trumping invisibility when comparing with it against scan at max levels.

The biggest issue with scan versus stealth is that while scan and stealth are on a par, there are a ton of +stealth items and no +scan items. Drop the stealth cap and the +stealth items puts it back on a truly equal footing.

There is at least one non-magickal item sold by a merchant house that auto-breaks all non-magickal stealth.

This isn't exactly what you asked for. But it exists.

If mundane stealth is so broken that an elf can dissapear in the middle of an empty room and be more invisible that a magick user, why not report said elf to the templars for using very strong magick? Use an IC "solution" before the ooc one of nerfing stuff. In Allanak at least.

I mean, when most people are magickally invisible, they're not actually trying to stay hidden. They're just sort of there, expectant that nobody will find them. It's not even really like, dnd invisibility.

But if you did consider DND invisibility, it's not really even that much harder for you to find an invisible character than the avg random guy who's hiding in a really good spot; and characters who specialize in stealth do trump magical invisibility in that sense.

If you change scan to trump stealth, then stealth becomes useless.

You can get max scan with a sub, but not max stealth. I think this is a good enough solution to balance the power of high stealth skills.

People want to be king of the sparring circle, big chief boss swinging dick, but ALSO be able to kill some scrub whose entire skill list revolves around their stealth ability.

As someone who has played a LOT of stealthers, I can only WISH it was as perfect as some of you claim it is.

It's like master climb. It WILL let you down. There's always a chance of failure, regardless of what you may have read on the Shadowboard circa 2016.

And when it lets you down, you are usually DONE.

This is a very complex game of rock, paper, scissors with extra math. And usually the GDB is filled up with rocks demanding more advantages over paper and scissors.