There have been many changes to this game in the last couple of years.  I don't know the overall affect, one way or the other...good or bad, on the game.  I have noticed that it is becoming harder and harder to play an independent, mundane character.  You can gulp down 2,3 or 4 tablets and still die or come so close it's not funny.  You can't raise a weapons skill on any NPC or beast or average player.  You have to be with a much more advanced character and spar regularly.  The game pushes you into combat clans with skill boosts that you can never hope to achieve on your own.  Before you say it, there is a place in this game for the lone hunter/grebber or a sword seller.  People need minions.  Not all of us seek fame and promotion.  I just want to play the game.  I am not in a place in my life where I can do justice to leadership roles or even be an everyday soldier or merc. (I have tried more magic user characters, then before, because there are plenty of those options available. Still can't wrap my head around it and get the same enjoyment as my mundane characters.)  I still want to add to the game.  I do get some satisfaction from the "grind' and getting better...Being a better hunter, a better grebber, better at filling orders, better with a weapon or a bow.  However, that part of the game seems to be a thing of the past for my type of character.  I have seen other folks, in character, that seem to understand these issues and are trying to make some IC options.  I think this is good.  I have some hope. I do want to hear if you have noticed these kinds of things and how it affects your play.     

I have noticed that "more vulnerable/weaker" mobs with ability to poison have the ability to kill a newer PC who wants to prey on weaker/more vulnerable mobs.  Due to the difficulty in finding people who know how to make cures, getting them to actually make them fresh for you since they degrade in quality, affording "one of each," needing them before they degrade in quality in your inventory - it's a daunting task to even attempt to set out on your own in areas that have those kinds of mobs.

There are other areas where those mobs don't exist or are rare, but THOSE mobs are harder to kill, and harder to defend yourself against.

I'd love to see a more "newly hatched PC-friendly" area for independents. Either that, or some kind of boost to people who do -not- come from a city, a natural resistance (not immunity) to certain poisons.  Or people who select certain classes/subclasses would have that natural resistance to certain poisons built in to the skillset.

Maybe any class that comes with wilderness stealth, would have a natural resistance to poison attacks from critters outside the gates. Even if it's just a 10% resistance, it'd make a huge difference to those folks who just want to be independent hunters whose players select appropriate skillsets for the role.

remove the angks from the tablelands
make the cactus snakes not poisonous anymore

the roof snakes can stay poisonous


hunt out of rsv/allanak and you will probably not die of poison unless someone drags a mob somewhere super wack

I have seen people die to normal mob poison recently but I think it is fairly rare unless you are a new PC in the Red or something unwise like that.

(Not including really dangerous mobs that wreck new PCs with poison on top)

Other than that I suggest buying player cures over any standard shop available cures....You could also make a PC with brew if you want to be a lone ranger as you say, and you'll see the difference in cure effectiveness.

Lotion is correct about burn poison being a lot rarer in the general Vrun.

The difficulty with being able to effectively train your weapon skills without a combat clan I think is a real issue. I always said I'd like to see a training dojo somewhere that you could pay a membership to, where you could access training for a fee that didn't mean you had to be a soldier or a merc character.

None of you here are going to like this, but...

I'm pretty sure this is in fact how it's intended and how it is honestly best. If you could get super high weapon skills and become a super jacked weaponmaster without having to interact, people would do that and they would make the game miserable going around flexing on everybody else. They do this already without being a super jacked weaponmaster, sometimes.

Instead, it requires roleplay, interaction, and enriching the play experiences of others to get your combat skills high.

Aaaand... that's how it should be.

Oh wow me and Windstorm completely agree on something! Soldiers learn by training together, this is more effective at honing your sword skills than stabbing volcano rats and birds. Makes sense 100%, encourages RP and co-operation.

You old hands will remember the old days where animals were pretty much the only way to advance, before the fixes to sparring etc. It is still very possible to advance with animals, especially large fast and dangerous ones, such as tarantulas, it is just slower than professional military training...as it should be.

But it isn't any slower than it used to be in the old days. Sparring was just improved to be more effective.

So it looks like if I want to play an independent.  I need, good stats.  The brew skill.  The knowledge to actually use the skill to personal benefit, which I don't have.  Even if I did have the knowledge of how to make the cures, I am still lacking the knowledge of where to find the reagents for the cures.  Combined with the ability to fend off more or less anything that may be in the area.

As a reminder I've definitely seen "new poison" on the changes recently but I think I still haven't seen "new cure"?  Which, again very Arm.  I suppose we've come down to it.  If my choices are, be forced to exclusively play in a combat clan until I learn how to make my own cures, and where everything is or go play something else. 

It's like, a bunch of you seem to forget not everyone knows what you do about Armageddon.  I'm not interested in joining some secret cabal off ooc players either so I guess I'm out of luck.  Fuck this waste of time.

The new poison doesn't have a cure. Luckily, it's also not available to players.

I figured that true independents able to do absolutely everything themselves were rare for a reason. There should be some co-operation, even betweeen three people starting their own genuinely independent group. At least one crime gang did it, and it wasn't even that long ago.

Quote from: Trevalyan on October 19, 2023, 06:41:33 AMThe new poison doesn't have a cure. Luckily, it's also not available to players.

I figured that true independents able to do absolutely everything themselves were rare for a reason. There should be some co-operation, even betweeen three people starting their own genuinely independent group. At least one crime gang did it, and it wasn't even that long ago.

Which I suppose if I was interested in wasting my time with a PC standing around in the mandatory location's at the mandatory times to accomplish, in the end, nothing of substance anyway.  I guess I just really needed pointed out how absolutely miserable it will probably be to try and play this game as a non-peak player if I don't want to play a class that never leaves the city.  I guess I'm just not excited about years of investing time to play city aides, or the Bynner that trains mostly alone.  Or maybe I get lucky and find one other off-peak player, leaving my entire experience to crumble when they disappear.

The new poison, not being available to players doesn't make me feel better.  Just going to guess who has more successful PK's average, staff or players.  The fact that a new poison was introduced, at all, with no ability to cure it.  AGAIN, is VERY Armageddon.  Like, spreading taint laden beasts across, the entirety of the map while making cures more complicated and difficult and annoying.  It's like there's a pattern, where changes make playing just more fucking awful without, really anything ever being done to encourage people to keep wasting there time.  It's hard for me to look over the last year of the change log and not think "is Staff just, trying to run folks off?"

With the way characters now start with boosts (and even boosts on top of the existing class boosts with the mini-sponsored-roles thing) the game is a lot easier than it used to be by all accounts, and as one of the people that hasn't played for decades I find these kind of posts really emotionally draining to read, because I find the challenge of the game fun and interesting, and I feel like the pushes some people want would run the game would be run into the ground and make it even more boring for a lot of people, because there's already serious issues with how safe the desert has become due to the skill boosts and people literally just farming gith now.

I would take things the other way, I think due to people being upset when staff spawns NPCs right next to them (which is understandable due to the unequal way this tends to done on players, and affects peak players more for example) we need some sort of Left 4 Dead style AI director that spawns groups of NPCs depending on the situation - people should actually think "Is wiping out every NPC I see in the Red Desert going to bring a gith warband down on me and my friends" etc.

The snakes are kind of a stop-gap solution to the people that try to farm the world as a newbie character, and they definitely have a purpose. The Red Fangs established that elves are not the threat they used to be:
What else would be dangerous in the red?
Why would anyone team up?
Why would anyone trade for supplies?
Why is the most dangerous trade route in the known usually a stroll through empty sands whistling and singing for the Byn unless staff decide to do something interesting?
We have a giant disconnect between how dangerous the world is meant to be in the lore and how it is really. We rely a LOT on players/staff to make things exciting atm, and that's impossible to have all the time, I've not heard of many quitting because Armageddon is too hard, usually it seems to be people just getting bored.

Quote from: GreenTransient on October 19, 2023, 06:54:41 AMThe new poison, not being available to players doesn't make me feel better.  Just going to guess who has more successful PK's average, staff or players.  The fact that a new poison was introduced, at all, with no ability to cure it.  AGAIN, is VERY Armageddon.  Like, spreading taint laden beasts across, the entirety of the map while making cures more complicated and difficult and annoying.  It's like there's a pattern, where changes make playing just more fucking awful without, really anything ever being done to encourage people to keep wasting there time.  It's hard for me to look over the last year of the change log and not think "is Staff just, trying to run folks off?"

Stepping in to correct some misinformation here. Which is difficult because I'd like to keep discovery in character whenever possible.  There is indeed a 'new' poison which is in reality just adding functionality beyond what the existing code allows us to do. It is not yet live anywhere in the game world as it's still being tested. This is also a player driven initiative and I'm quite thankful for all support given by other staff members and the interest of the players involved to continue the project as I think it's a minor improvement to something already in the game.

Armageddon has a lot of barriers to information. The dreaded FOIC. The intention there is for there to be a sense of discovery while playing the game. It would be nice if the assumption when seeing something new like this was 'Oh wow, I wonder what that is?' instead of 'Staff want to kill players.'  The latter is not the case.

Quote from: Inks on October 19, 2023, 04:05:03 AMOh wow me and Windstorm completely agree on something! Soldiers learn by training together, this is more effective at honing your sword skills than stabbing volcano rats and birds. Makes sense 100%, encourages RP and co-operation.

You old hands will remember the old days where animals were pretty much the only way to advance, before the fixes to sparring etc. It is still very possible to advance with animals, especially large fast and dangerous ones, such as tarantulas, it is just slower than professional military training...as it should be.

But it isn't any slower than it used to be in the old days. Sparring was just improved to be more effective.

Could/should sparring be rewarded even MORE than it is now, or do you think its good as is? It seems like it takes ages to level combat in comparison to other skills. It's hard to coordinate spars in comparison with training alone.

Oh it is super quick I feel like. It is totally at a level it should be left as is. In my opinion!

And yes weapon skills gain slower than most skills but soooo much quicker than the old days.

Mostly I never got past J/M on my weapon skills back then unless I was going full autist on a PC. Now advanced/master on at least one weapon skill is pretty chill.

You would have to do some heinous stuff to master weapon skills, for the most part, thank god we no longer live in that reality.

Quote from: GreenTransient on October 19, 2023, 06:29:07 AMSo it looks like if I want to play an independent.  I need, good stats.  The brew skill.  The knowledge to actually use the skill to personal benefit, which I don't have.  Even if I did have the knowledge of how to make the cures, I am still lacking the knowledge of where to find the reagents for the cures.  Combined with the ability to fend off more or less anything that may be in the area.

As a reminder I've definitely seen "new poison" on the changes recently but I think I still haven't seen "new cure"?  Which, again very Arm.  I suppose we've come down to it.  If my choices are, be forced to exclusively play in a combat clan until I learn how to make my own cures, and where everything is or go play something else. 

It's like, a bunch of you seem to forget not everyone knows what you do about Armageddon.  I'm not interested in joining some secret cabal off ooc players either so I guess I'm out of luck.  Fuck this waste of time.

This isn't a single-player game though - it's billed as a RPI in which you're intended to interact to find out things. I recently attempted to lone-wolf it (in a way... I'm a very social type player), and it was really stinking hard. I could figure out stuff to float along, but I wasn't learning what I needed to learn to rp what I wanted to do well so I had to shift gears even though it broke my concept a little. Some games reward lone-wolfing, but this one doesn't seem like it's intended here. This game rewards joining up with other people or IC organizations and I think that's a positive because it fosters interaction and storytelling beyond just an isolated player.

QuoteMostly I never got past J/M on my weapon skills back then unless I was going full autist on a PC. Now advanced/master on at least one weapon skill is pretty chill.

You would have to do some heinous stuff to master weapon skills, for the most part, thank god we no longer live in that reality.

Honestly it wouldn't even be that bad.  Most content in the game is doable at J/M weapon skills for the most part, aside from a few notables that if you're trying to do them solo with high weapon skills you're still kind of stupid to attempt it.

The problem BACK THEN was that there was branching attached to weapon skills for a class, so them being inordinately difficult to get that high actually blocked you out of what felt like the full realization of said class and making it feel disadvantaged as far as visible progression.  Now I don't believe there's anything blocked by them AND they go up more reliably, resulting in a win win.

Honestly, I really wish people could understand to NOT emphasize weapon-skill maxxery the same way they do with role-defining skills.  Even if you think these are role-defining, they are not.  Weapon skills are on a whole different plane of skills, made to be a steady progression throughout a long life, not something that you get up first before you can start living.

Need a lot of roleplay in the sparring circle to be able to be able to convincingly roleplay with hostile raiders. 


I wasn't saying maxxing a weapon skill is that important just that it is easier now. But gimme my weapon skill because the rush of endorphins to my brain when something goes from j/m to advanced is chef's kiss.

Armageddon is billed as a "harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world" which should imply that it's supposed to be a bit difficult.  Not everyone likes that kind of game, and that's OK!  But this is the game we want, and have always had.  Over the 30+ years the game has been running, we evolve and adjust.  We want to provide a fun, challenging experience but no, we don't want it to be outright impossible for new players.  As @papertiger mentioned, however, the emphasis of this game is on roleplaying, and that typically means interacting with other people (although, there's certainly a place for single-player periods).

In real life, if you attempted to go out in some of the harshest parts of the world without modern equipment, you'd have a rough time.  Think of places like the Sahara or the Sonoran or the Gobi.  There are certain people who can handle that alone for a time, they have all the survival skills they would need.  But not everyone does, and those who don't would have a very hard time, if not outright perishing, unless they brought the proper equipment and were told how to survive by someone who knows.  In other words, they must properly prepare ahead of time.

The same is true of the Zalanthan wastes.  If you don't know what you're doing, and don't have the proper equipment (i.e. have prepared), you will have a hard time, if not outright perish.  This is the game's design, and always has been, we make no secret of that.  That is the roleplaying challenge we present - play the life of a character who is trying to survive that - or survive the cities with their own set of dangers.

Quote from: Armaddict on October 19, 2023, 02:05:39 PMNow I don't believe there's anything blocked by them AND they go up more reliably, resulting in a win win.

There are still classes that branch from their weapon skills. Enforcer is a good example, requiring you to level up your Piercing skill to unlock backstab.

Quote from: lostinspace on October 19, 2023, 04:43:04 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on October 19, 2023, 02:05:39 PMNow I don't believe there's anything blocked by them AND they go up more reliably, resulting in a win win.

There are still classes that branch from their weapon skills. Enforcer is a good example, requiring you to level up your Piercing skill to unlock backstab.

Ah, you're right.  Isn't this the only case though?  I can remember this coming up in the class discussion and it being explicitly said that it was because they didn't want most enforcers to end up getting it.  It was meant to be an uncommon branch by design, and probably not something that you chose the class for, and rather an expansion to make the long lived enforcer 'special'.

Only thing I have to say about this topic is that non-intelligent non-humanoids shouldn't have disarm. Thank you, have a nice day.

Quote from: Kavrick on October 19, 2023, 06:14:53 PMOnly thing I have to say about this topic is that non-intelligent non-humanoids shouldn't have disarm. Thank you, have a nice day.

Hmmm, I think they have more intellect than you are giving them credit. Keep in mind that every intelligent creature in Known, can and does use the Way, and psionics in some shape or form, per https://armageddon.org/help/view/Psionics .

Please do not confuse ability to use the way.

Jozhals can use the way.

I dont need (another) psionic jozhal overlord.

If dwarves are allowed disarm bahamets are allowed disarm.

Quote from: Armaddict on October 19, 2023, 04:58:24 PM

Quote from: lostinspace on October 19, 2023, 04:43:04 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on October 19, 2023, 02:05:39 PMNow I don't believe there's anything blocked by them AND they go up more reliably, resulting in a win win.

There are still classes that branch from their weapon skills. Enforcer is a good example, requiring you to level up your Piercing skill to unlock backstab.

Ah, you're right.  Isn't this the only case though?

No. Also soldier.

You are making stuff up unintentionally, but there is a difference in that you don't need to master enforcer or soldier weapon skills to branch them so they are purposely attainable over a long time, even enforcer. There is now no skills that "most" long lived characters will never ever branch.


It was warriors branching advanced weapon skills and assassins for some reason branching....knifemaking from master piercing weapons which was a pretty baffling unnattainable thing and it capped at advanced haha. At least the current branching makes sense.

Quote from: Inks on October 19, 2023, 10:51:42 PMbut there is a difference in that you don't need to master enforcer or soldier weapon skills to branch them so they are purposely attainable over a long time, even enforcer.

(Redacted! Sorry Inks.)