Not having climb, for playability reasons, is ass. I'm sure others feel my pain. It doesn't make sense realistically that someone can't learn to climb to an average degree (low jman?) unless their sdesc is a morbidly obese one legged man. For this reason I feel like the climb skill should pop as the ride and pilot skill do.

I don't really agree, stuff like climbing building and climbing cliff-faces is a specialized skill, not just something every average joe knows how to do.

I think that everyone should get climb at skill level 1, IF ONLY so that climbing spikes, gloves, harnesses, etc etc actually are useful.

If you do not have the skill on your list, equipment designed to increase the skill doesn't work.

I am all for certain classes to basically have unlimited error-free vertical movement. I am also all for a clumsy fat human to deck out in 10,000 coins worth of climbing gear for that sweet "maybe I won't break my neck" skill check.

I think anyone should be able to climb. Journeyman may be a bit high, maybe more like low apprentice/high novice for the people who don't have it currently, though. I want it /possible/ for them to climb out with a great deal of trouble, on low climbs. And for climb gear to work. But for people who want to climb well and reliably to either use stupid amounts of money on custom gear or either class/subclass choice on climb skill anyhow.

"Sorry, I can't go that way. I can never, ever go that way, not even if you lowering me with a rope or tie me to a half giant like fezzik"


I support this. Novice climb is still gonna dangerous, and even with gear, unadvisable. But a lot less meta if the code would let it pop for a low level.

Nah. Climbing without the skill is good enough for the circumstances a short climb is needed.

Using grappling hooks, ropes and crampons should require specialized skills. 

I like it.
At least, give it a cap of 20%, so you have a 1 in 5 chance to succeed.

Quote from: roughneck on September 28, 2023, 01:23:49 PMNah. Climbing without the skill is good enough for the circumstances a short climb is needed.

Using grappling hooks, ropes and crampons should require specialized skills. 

Sure. But this is Zalanthas. Its spiked gloves, spider fangs tied to your ankles, and a rope.

Even if you give everyone a single point in the skill, all the climbing gear in the Known isn't going to put you above high novice skill. But at least then you encourage the purchase and use of the gear.

I remember a staffer saying somewhere in public before (I think it was brokkr?) that only the highest bonus on skill boosting gear actually matters

Quote from: Riev on September 28, 2023, 01:40:16 PM

Quote from: roughneck on September 28, 2023, 01:23:49 PMNah. Climbing without the skill is good enough for the circumstances a short climb is needed.

Using grappling hooks, ropes and crampons should require specialized skills. 

Sure. But this is Zalanthas. Its spiked gloves, spider fangs tied to your ankles, and a rope.

Even if you give everyone a single point in the skill, all the climbing gear in the Known isn't going to put you above high novice skill. But at least then you encourage the purchase and use of the gear.

Haha, true. But, if you're buying that shit for any other reason than to look cool, you've missed the whole point of armageddon. Do it for the culture.

Quote from: roughneck on September 29, 2023, 09:29:06 AM

Quote from: Riev on September 28, 2023, 01:40:16 PM

Quote from: roughneck on September 28, 2023, 01:23:49 PMNah. Climbing without the skill is good enough for the circumstances a short climb is needed.

Using grappling hooks, ropes and crampons should require specialized skills. 

Sure. But this is Zalanthas. Its spiked gloves, spider fangs tied to your ankles, and a rope.

Even if you give everyone a single point in the skill, all the climbing gear in the Known isn't going to put you above high novice skill. But at least then you encourage the purchase and use of the gear.

Haha, true. But, if you're buying that shit for any other reason than to look cool, you've missed the whole point of armageddon. Do it for the culture.

I have absolutely no clue what you mean. Why would I buy climbing spikes, rope, and harnesses unless I'm doing so to try and succeed at the climb I'm going on?

I'm suggesting that everyone actually gets the bonuses to these, rather than the OP suggesting everyone gets it to like Jman levels similar to Ride or Pilot.

Can you explain how I missed the whole point of Armageddon, please?

I was joking. I haven't figured out what the point of armageddon is yet, to be honest. Just having fun my man, I enjoyed your comment.

The climbing aptitude of characters without the skill is unrealistically bad. Characters that don't have the climb skill perform worse than you would expect a 45 year old office worker from our current-day world to do. It's beyond absurd how inept characters are at climbing without the skill.

There is no logical argument for the notion that climbing equipment should not work if you don't have the skill. They're leather straps and spiked soles. A neanderthal could work it out. Anyone who posits the view that prior familiarity with the arcane techniques of climbing should be required in order to work out how to use a harness, rope and climbing boots is, to put it mildly, an idiot who's talking out of their bottom half. It's a really stupid concept that makes no sense.

Players should not be expected to spend their subclass on access to the climb skill if their main class could realistically fit into a role where climbing might be part of their life. That means you, soldiers and fighters and whoever else. There is no credibility whatsoever to the idea that such classes would not have learned to climb over the course of whatever lives would compel the player to pick that class. If you picked artisan then sure, alright, maybe it's within the boundaries of realism that you might in fact never have climbed anything. And fortunately, nobody playing a role that calls for the choice of the artisan class is likely to need the climb skill. That's how classes and skills should work.

But when a soldier, fighter or whatever other classes are nonsensically deprived of the climb skill then inevitably find themselves in a position where lacking that skill means they look like utter clowns who fit better into a cartoon than a realistic simulation of a desert world where only the hardiest and most resourceful survive, the game has failed and should be fixed.

Climbing without the climb skill is so prohibitively hard that it's plainly stupid and unrealistic. Either it should be a skill that anyone can learn, like ride, as OP suggested; or climbing equipment should work properly, as basic logic dictates it would. We're not talking about mech suits here. We're talking about leather straps and tapering bits of bone. There is no logical basis for the idea that anyone could be unable to grasp how these work. That's just too dumb to accept. It makes zero sense at all.

Also,

"Falls" are the number 2 killer of players, as per Pathian's data.

And they still likely would be, but you can at least try to mitigate it as best you can.

Its not a Front-line soldier who can barely walk up steps trying to climb the Barrier Range. Its Recruit/Runner Same-Ohs out on a patrol and trying to climb one room up to get a better vantage point. And he spends 5000 coins to get a MAYBE 10% better chance of doing so.

This would, likely, require changing nearly EVERY character sheet in the game as that is the core issue of +skill items not even working.

Quote from: mansa on September 29, 2023, 02:19:40 PMAlso,

"Falls" are the number 2 killer of players, as per Pathian's data.

An enriching end to a player character. Hurrah.

Eh, I don't get it.

Falls are also a leading cause of injury related death, IRL. This is because people think climbing is way easier than it actually is, and you only need to mess up once. Falling off ladders, scaffolding, down the stairs, stuff that was meant for climbing. Folks fall off of it and die, all the time... not to turn this into a OSHA lecture 

IG, you can easily climb one room without the climb skill, it just takes more stamina and a little more time. To me, that is a very common sense reflection of being less proficient at climbing. You can even, fairly easily, climb two rooms! Going down more than one room is tricky without risking some HP, but them's the breaks.

There are tons of Class/Subclass combos that provide climb. You can even get Master climb with a subclass now.

Off-topic, but of the % of PC falling/climbing related deaths IG, I wonder how many occurred while the PC was mounted.

I do think it would make sense that someone with high climbing skill could 'lower rope' to assist with those climbing a room below that don't have the skill, but using ropes is a skill, as intuitive as it may seem.

I'm going to take a picture of the piece of playground equipment that my 4 year old son CLIMBS, and he's a Fighter class.

Just to clarify some information:

Climbing ropes that you "Hold/Wield" will give you bonuses to climb.  This works with everyone.  The game echo even states, "Using <item>, you climb <direction>".

However, if you have climbing boots, climbing gloves, wearing a climbing harness on your waist, climbing helmet, or wearing any other +climb item, it will not give you any benefit if you don't have climb in your skill list.

(This is the same with sunslits, which explicitly state will give you a bonus to direction sense, even if you don't have it on your skill list.)

Yeah Mansa I was going to say that too about the ropes, but I couldn't be bothered. Even though I'm doing it now, kinda, after you did it. So here we are. Love you

Quote from: Roon on September 29, 2023, 02:07:32 PMThere is no logical argument for the notion that climbing equipment should not work if you don't have the skill. They're leather straps and spiked soles. A neanderthal could work it out. Anyone who posits the view that prior familiarity with the arcane techniques of climbing should be required in order to work out how to use a harness, rope and climbing boots is, to put it mildly, an idiot who's talking out of their bottom half. It's a really stupid concept that makes no sense.

...

Climbing without the climb skill is so prohibitively hard that it's plainly stupid and unrealistic. Either it should be a skill that anyone can learn, like ride, as OP suggested; or climbing equipment should work properly, as basic logic dictates it would. We're not talking about mech suits here. We're talking about leather straps and tapering bits of bone. There is no logical basis for the idea that anyone could be unable to grasp how these work. That's just too dumb to accept. It makes zero sense at all.

there's rope anyone can use, but strapped or worn climbing equipment does require skill to use.

if one doesn't know how to climb, where did the knowledge of using climbing equipment properly come from?

strapping on shoes with cleats doesn't build the latissimus muscle or forearm flexors.

the knowledge of figuring out "how to use climbing equipment" and the ability to do so is represented in code by the skill.

most soldiers probably aren't climbing over the shield wall on a daily basis.

they may be playing on jungle gyms in a room but that's just emoting - not using the coded skill to travel huge distances outdoors or climb up multiple stories of buildings in a city.

I looked at this pretty extensively when this came up a couple of years ago.  Off the top of my head...

There is custom code that applies only to climb.  There is a base chance if you do not have the skill.  Having a climbing tool in hand gives essentially a skill bump to everyone.  +climb gear actually applies to everyone, as the custom code includes this in the calculation if you don't have climb.  How this is done is different than how it is applied to a person that does have climb.

When I tested it before, you could with enough gear get to a higher % to climb with no skill than if we had everyone have like a 20 skill in climb.

I should check to see if anything has changed, but do not have time to right now.

Climb is a feature of a class/guild selection. Wanna do it, choose one of those. If everyone thinks they can climb no matter what walk of life or training, then give everyone backstab too, because, realistically, I can stab you in the back.