Presently, Mages can do EVERYTHING a mundane can do, but better!

Why not give mundanes a coded combat bonus that mages dont get, to set them apart?

Raider-ruk will never be as strong as raider-mundane in combat....until they buff up and roflstomp them anyway.

So, to simulate mundanes focusing their entire life around their mundane abilities...make them better at mundane combat than mages.

How?

One suggestion is to "nerf" the top proficiency of Raider/Enforcer/Fighter - Decrease their cap by 20% when they pick a mage subclass.  Decrease the cap of Infiltrators/Scout/Soldier by 10%.


Another suggestion is to "nerf" their "learning speed" value - so they don't learn combat skills as quickly as non-magickers.

Quote from: mansa on August 28, 2023, 10:44:18 PMHow?

One suggestion is to "nerf" the top proficiency of Raider/Enforcer/Fighter - Decrease their cap by 20% when they pick a mage subclass.  Decrease the cap of Infiltrators/Scout/Soldier by 10%.


Another suggestion is to "nerf" their "learning speed" value - so they don't learn combat skills as quickly as non-magickers.

I think the new mundane subguild changes will address a lot of the imbalances (not saying it is balanced).

If you wanted to nerf gickers then:

Just nerf all mundane skill caps by 10 on any magicker class. Any. Scouts and stalkers are the main problem gickers, as well as miscreants etc for city elves. So make it blanket and fair. It has mostly not been the heavy combat casters that do the most damage it is the impossible to ever spot scout/stalker/miscreant/infiltrator whirans and drovians etc. There is a reason every sorcerer I have ever seen has picked stalker or miscreant or scout.

Biggest issue I have with gicks is they get to both be wizards and a full class at the same time. This is a problem for two reasons; One, they can have all the offensive/defensive capabilities of a fighter/raider/enforcer while also being able to cast magic, this means a mundane in combat with one of these T1 gick will NEVER beat them in a straight fight, which is ridiculous on it's own. But on top of that, having a full class on top of being able to cast magic means that if you want to hide that you're a gick, it's pretty easy to as long as you don't intentionally fuck up. Also I do want to point out that making it so they have 10 points less on their caps really doesn't make a difference, especially with combat classes because the majority of characters do not max out their combat skills before they die.

Any effort to sort of "balance" magickers with other things is, to me, a little misguided.

A magicker isn't supposed to be equivalent to a mundane. A magicker can do things a mundane can't just like a half-giant can do things a human can't. This isn't supposed to be equal and after a recent change already that made magickers basically take a stat penalty for being a magicker, I don't think it needs to go any further.

Being a magicker isn't supposed to be the same power level a mundane is at. Instead, it comes with social, professional, interpersonal and opportunistic limitations that, in the best of circumstances, can and do make significant major parts of their lives either hidden, isolated, or extremely limited. In certain parts of the world outside of major population centers, this is at least slightly less true and I get the feeling that this is where more of the problem lies.

On a wilderness isolationist PC where they don't care about the social consequences and limitations, there's probably not much downside to being a magicker. But changing magickers affects all of them, including the less popular citybound ones.

Inks also illustrates some slice of the truth that, in my opinion, stealth is the issue there, not magick. With the way it can bend time/space almost without restriction in some places, stealth is more magickal than magick is in ways. Combining the two, I'd assume, is probably the most powerful way to play.

Quote from: Windstorm on August 29, 2023, 06:38:50 AMAny effort to sort of "balance" magickers with other things is, to me, a little misguided.

A magicker isn't supposed to be equivalent to a mundane. A magicker can do things a mundane can't just like a half-giant can do things a human can't. This isn't supposed to be equal and after a recent change already that made magickers basically take a stat penalty for being a magicker, I don't think it needs to go any further.

Being a magicker isn't supposed to be the same power level a mundane is at. Instead, it comes with social, professional, interpersonal and opportunistic limitations that, in the best of circumstances, can and do make significant major parts of their lives either hidden, isolated, or extremely limited. In certain parts of the world outside of major population centers, this is at least slightly less true and I get the feeling that this is where more of the problem lies.

So I'm gonna point out something that feels sort of taboo to point out but. People really don't treat gicks badly anymore, except from in the north where being a gick gets you instantly killed. Nearly every female gick I see in Allanak is dressed like a noble despite supposedly being lower than a commoner, and people will still cozy up with them at the bar. This is also partially just an issue with 'Armageddon has no sexism in writing but totally does in practice' so I'm not sure what to do about it. I don't actually personally have an issue with people being nice to gicks, but I don't think being a gick in the south is really as bad as it's supposed to be lore-wise.

While that's maybe getting into territory the OP didn't intend, I'll say that the role's difficulties are many, both from like the perspective within and outside.

Short version though: your average commoner is close enough, socially, to being absolute dirt themselves that seeing a PC for example is representing the nobility in some respect is probably going to be a pretty fuzzy area. Even if you don't like them, you should fear them in multiple ways, so they wind up getting abnormal respect.

It's also another one of those things where the population of the world doesn't necessarily match the population of PCs that are around!

If there's really only two gemmed PCs and those ones happen to be in positions well above your average gemmed, the problem may not be with those PCs, but with the fact that the role is otherwise unpopular. So you never see all the run of the mill gemmed, because the people who want to play magickers are all out in the wilderness not having to deal with the limitations of the role.

Or they're logged out, because the role often and inherently winds up with you just not having much to do.

The problem then isn't really the individuals who stick with it through the hard times and and earn prominence, but the fact that without that, the role kind of sucks. But some of those latter parts are probably hard to see from an outside perspective. You're not seeing the average gemmed when you see one that's working for a noble in a prominent position. You're basically only seeing those, because nobody else wants to play gemmed.

To illustrate: when's the last time you saw more than 2 gemmed in a room at the same time, outside of some special event? The world is not bursting with people playing these roles for a reason, trust me.

I do understand what you're saying though, and I hope I explained an alternative perspective well.

(also, just going to drop this topic before it goes any more off the rails than it is already)

Quote from: Windstorm on August 29, 2023, 07:09:32 AMTo illustrate: when's the last time you saw more than 2 gemmed in a room at the same time, outside of some special event? The world is not bursting with people playing these roles for a reason, trust me.

I do understand what you're saying though, and I hope I explained an alternative perspective well.

Snipping to not make my reply massive. But I honestly don't agree with there not being that many gemmed. I see a /lot/ of unique gemmed characters, I'd say roughly how many gemmed I'm pretty sure are playing right now but that'd be ic information. I see plenty of gemmed all about the place.

The fact that there is no way for a warrior that can knock arrows away or use their shield to block a bite from a mekillot can't for instance dodge a fireball, or at least use a shield to block magic is a huge let down for mundanes.

The truth of the matter is magic has always been overpowered and unbalanced. It could be balanced but it would take the effort of a coder that wants "mundanes" to be at least somewhat in the conversation which doesn't look like is going to happen.

I air quote the mundane word because really they shouldn't be called mundanes. Just because a class/guild/whatever doesn't use magic doesn't mean they aren't epic, powerful, and very capable.

I'm all for mages doing stuff mundanes can't do.

But WHY must mages be able to do EVERYTHING mundanes can do, often BETTER? Help that make sense.

I've fought for damage reduction using shields, like with arrow-parries, for a while. Unsure if the way magic works in our heavily-modified codebase treats certain spells as projectiles or not, though.

The premise for mundane/non magicker play is that Mundanes run the world. They're the most populous, they are available for more and better positions because they aren't tainted by magick.

The reality, though, is that why hire a fully mundane scout/bruiser when you can hire a scout/super-magicker? The minor amount of backlash you might get from a PC who doesn't matter?


Players are responsible for taking the virtual world into account, but staff are responsible for making the virtual world count.

Quote from: Kavrick on August 29, 2023, 06:33:33 AMBiggest issue I have with gicks is they get to both be wizards and a full class at the same time. This is a problem for two reasons; One, they can have all the offensive/defensive capabilities of a fighter/raider/enforcer while also being able to cast magic, this means a mundane in combat with one of these T1 gick will NEVER beat them in a straight fight, which is ridiculous on it's own. But on top of that, having a full class on top of being able to cast magic means that if you want to hide that you're a gick, it's pretty easy to as long as you don't intentionally fuck up. Also I do want to point out that making it so they have 10 points less on their caps really doesn't make a difference, especially with combat classes because the majority of characters do not max out their combat skills before they die.

Why does the ease of hiding whether or not a person is a gick matter with regards to class-subclass selections? Regardless of if they had a full mundane class with gick subclass Or a full gick class with a mundane subclass, you are not supposed to use your observations of what skills they seem to have, to sniff out whether they are a magicker Or mundane, as that would be meta. So, to summarize, the point that being able to take full mundane guild makes it harder to detect a mage, to me, respectfully, makes no sense.

Furthermore, as Windstorm said, while superficially, it may appear that gemmed are all the regular characters are + more, the thematic restrictions more than compensate for that. You literally cannot join any organization save for a very few rare exceptions, you are targetted by Raiders, D-elves, Northerners more than other characters are, many people are reluctant to do business with you, you are excluded from most public events.. And the list goes on. I speak from experience 

Quote from: LidlessEye on August 29, 2023, 01:08:15 PMWhy does the ease of hiding whether or not a person is a gick matter with regards to class-subclass selections? Regardless of if they had a full mundane class with gick subclass Or a full gick class with a mundane subclass, you are not supposed to use your observations of what skills they seem to have, to sniff out whether they are a magicker Or mundane, as that would be meta. So, to summarize, the point that being able to take full mundane guild makes it harder to detect a mage, to me, respectfully, makes no sense.

Because being able to take a full main class means you can completely ignore your magic and play as a mundane. I've never even seen gicks use hemotes to hint at their magicak nature, even with high watch/scan characters. On top of that, it's actually incredibly unrealistic that somehow a person has the time to both be a full time crafter/soldier/hunter while also somehow having the time to research magic and become a master at that too. Just the fact Gicks can become the masters of both mundane and magic is incredibly illogical and makes them far too strong.

Also the thing about being hunted in the wild. I've been hunted in the wild whether or not I've been a gick, it's very easy to just never go to the north and in the south, you have red storm village to covertly max out all of your magick, which is what a lot of gicks do anyway.

Kavrick has a really good point - it's, in large part, a function of how well treated the gemmed are in Allanak.  The nobles that get staff plots tend to treat them like treasured pets, rather than treating them like the tools that the docs suggest for the relationship between gemmed and higher classes.  It's easy to slip into it, and there's no real direct blame assignable, if you Rp with someone regularly because they're working for you, you start to humanize them.  But the point is, even the highest ranked magicker in the highest ranked noble house or working for a templar is around the same level of social status as a half-elf hunter for Kurac.  Act appropriately, and the problem is semi-solved.  This is much easier said than done, because we're all nerds playing a game who want more people to rp with.

I also agree we should end subclass magickers outside of spec apps, and go back to full guild magickers if only so they can't do everything and obviate the vast majority of PCs just by existing.

edit: I will say, I've seen magickers do it well, throw hemotes, etc..  The complaints tend to be lobbied at the most visible offenders, and we should avoid writing in absolutes.

Quote from: Kavrick on August 29, 2023, 01:13:23 PM

Quote from: LidlessEye on August 29, 2023, 01:08:15 PMWhy does the ease of hiding whether or not a person is a gick matter with regards to class-subclass selections? Regardless of if they had a full mundane class with gick subclass Or a full gick class with a mundane subclass, you are not supposed to use your observations of what skills they seem to have, to sniff out whether they are a magicker Or mundane, as that would be meta. So, to summarize, the point that being able to take full mundane guild makes it harder to detect a mage, to me, respectfully, makes no sense.

Because being able to take a full main class means you can completely ignore your magic and play as a mundane. I've never even seen gicks use hemotes to hint at their magicak nature, even with high watch/scan characters. On top of that, it's actually incredibly unrealistic that somehow a person has the time to both be a full time crafter/soldier/hunter while also somehow having the time to research magic and become a master at that too. Just the fact Gicks can become the masters of both mundane and magic is incredibly illogical and makes them far too strong.

Also the thing about being hunted in the wild. I've been hunted in the wild whether or not I've been a gick, it's very easy to just never go to the north and in the south, you have red storm village to covertly max out all of your magick, which is what a lot of gicks do anyway.

That's because manifestation can happen any time and to anyone, from a thematic point of view. According to some story I read somewhere on the site, the ruler of Steinal, Valasurus was originally a Captain in the AoD, I. E. a full soldier, before he manifested as a Vivaduan. Similarly, Muk Utep is a warlord and supposed to be a legendary warrior.

As for combat strength, https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jedi_hunter

There are many ways to combat mages: Poisons, spice, and the best weapon of all, your mind.

It's a thing. Mage class 'mundanes' max out their mundane stuff, aand then wabam, oh ho, suddenly i'm a 'gick too. They coast as a mundane, and there's no concern about being busted.

Quote from: Coda on August 29, 2023, 01:16:54 PMedit: I will say, I've seen magickers do it well, throw hemotes, etc..  The complaints tend to be lobbied at the most visible offenders, and we should avoid writing in absolutes.

I do agree that some gicks are far better roleplayers than others, and some gicks will intentionally be risky and chance getting caught to fall into the whole 'gicks will subconciously cause magickal effects just through their bodily functions, and massive kudos to those guys.

Quote from: LidlessEye on August 29, 2023, 01:20:08 PMThat's because manifestation can happen any time and to anyone, from a thematic point of view. According to some story I read somewhere on the site, the ruler of Steinal, Valasurus was originally a Captain in the AoD, I. E. a full soldier, before he manifested as a Vivaduan. Similarly, Muk Utep is a warlord and supposed to be a legendary warrior.

As for combat strength, https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jedi_hunter

There are many ways to combat mages: Poisons, spice, and the best weapon of all, your mind.

I'm not even touching comparing gicks to jedi, secondly, I don't think you can use standout characters like captains and sorcerer kings as a good comparison to player characters. As for things like poisons and spice? I mean gicks get to use those too, it's really not an advantage mundanes have that gicks dont.

Give Wahid Abadi access to higher level blood purification magick.


Beyond that? All the things to "combat" magickers are given in the main-class skills. Send a maniac, to catch a maniac. It sounds like the concern is that there is nothing coded/political/social that a mundane has to combat a magicker specific to them.

Sergeant of the AoD doesn't protect you from a fireball, and being a 'rinthi Gang Leader doesn't protect you from someone causing the very earth to quake at your feet.

Don't nerf magick. Don't BALANCE anything. Just ensure that non-magickers feel like there's a reason to be mundane.

Instead of nerfing mages or buffing mundanes, I've always been a proponent of adding in anti-mage problems.
Creatures that sniff out and hunt just gicks, completely passive with mundanes.
Certain locations, foods, and drinks that they have allergic reactions to.

Just things that make being a mage more challenging, because as it exists now, being a mage usually just makes you a mundane+. The north sort of has this already with the hunt and kill mages situation, but if people don't go there it's pretty easy to just exist as a gick.

Give me a surefire way to test someone for being a gick (animals that hunt, reactions to foods) and I will 100% force PCs through doing that to identify them. Tell me elementalists are allergic to powdered siltflyer beaks and I will pay a Gemmed Whiran to crop-dust Allanak tomorrow.

The idea is nice, but no thank you. Because -I- will do that, and I will do it un-apologetically.

Quote from: lostinspace on August 29, 2023, 02:15:21 PMInstead of nerfing mages or buffing mundanes, I've always been a proponent of adding in anti-mage problems.
Creatures that sniff out and hunt just gicks, completely passive with mundanes.
Certain locations, foods, and drinks that they have allergic reactions to.

Just things that make being a mage more challenging, because as it exists now, being a mage usually just makes you a mundane+. The north sort of has this already with the hunt and kill mages situation, but if people don't go there it's pretty easy to just exist as a gick.

I agree with this, add more stuff that's anti-magic. Make it so krathi get thirsty more often, make it so certain spices are harmful to gicks and not to mundanes. Give some mechanical drawbacks to your character literally being connected to elemental magic. I can't remember where I read it, but I was sure that the silt in the silt sea was supposed to have anti-magic properties? I feel like that could be used to make anti-magic gear or charms? Literally anything would be nice.

A good example is the north, Tuluk is supposed to hate magick and kill them on sight, but they have no real counter to magick and routinely get spanked by rogue mages that hide out in the northlands.

Another thing you could do, is just block anyone picking Fighter/Enforcer/Raider from picking a magick subclass completely.

We currently have parameters to do this with the racial choice, I'm sure we can do that with the class/subclass choice.

Quote from: mansa on August 29, 2023, 03:29:47 PMAnother thing you could do, is just block anyone picking Fighter/Enforcer/Raider from picking a magick subclass completely.

We currently have parameters to do this with the racial choice, I'm sure we can do that with the class/subclass choice.

I'd honestly completely block out T1s and T2s in that case. T2 Still includes things like infiltrator, which gets master backstab and scout, which is a super solid combat class (sorry soldier, you branch skills off weapon skills). But that's mostly a conversation about how T1s and T2s only make a huge difference on high skilled characters, at least from my experience.

Every time I return to the game, I see a debate like this happening.

I beat my head against the wall every time.

I never have really understood why this had mattered as much as it does.

Elementalist, mages, gicks, whatever you want to call them are -already- social pariahs. If thats not as much as it used to be then maybe people should start trying to act on it in character more. This is 100% possible to do without being such a jerk that its unfun for the rogue mage or gemmed in question. When I play a gemmer or mage, I -expect- to get bullied. I think it makes for good Rp.

Like..they literally get left out of a lot of social things that anyone else could involve themselves in, by default.


A warrior that spent their entire life training to be a master combatant suddenly manifests as x.

Now suddenly, they're no longer capable of using their skills to the fullest? It makes no sense, this was part of the logic behind elementalist subclasses back when they released.

The subclasses were introduced to increase a wider range of roleplay possibilities, and I think that's fine.

In my perspective, someone with the super magical superpowers is GOING TO BE DANGEROUS. AND MORE CAPABLE. They should be feared. They should be treated with caution. With mystique. With Awe.

I understand the concern for code im balances, but please think of the setting itself and how the world is. Zalanthas is the epitome of 'Life is not fair'.

I really don't think anything needs balancing or changing, just taking things in a different perspective.

Treat how they are: Freaks, superpowered freaks. Fear them, hate them out of envy, act on that in character. There's a LOT more mundanes than there are gicks, and numbers are always a thing.

And well.. an unpopular opinion below, maybe.


I'm still of the opinion that full elementalists are far stronger than a main guild mundane guild with subguild elementalist.

But, I've only been back for a few days now, but ive seen the population range from 18-30 while im on, and well, to me, now it makes more sense that people are involving a potential gemmed or mage a bit more - Arm's world is big, especially for thirty players.

The current attitude towards mages might just be a result of that. Seeking interaction.

I don't think anything should be blanket nerfed or limited tier-wise.

Instead, make it so that long-lived mundane characters can specialize or generalize- getting a +5 to a cap or something, or a new skill at 20, so that they can start to make themselves notable without needing to cast fireballs. Do it at 6 months and a year or something like that.