Related to the update here.

What are ya'lls theories?

A return to the legendary half elementals?

Learning other spells?

Getting a personal staff npc for mudsex?

The possibilities are only limited to however much dirt I can dig up on Brokkr (Yes, I do want a Dragon thank you)

I assume it's:

a) Policy regarding learning new spells once you've reached your maximum
b) New crafting of items to align with "end-game progression of mages"
c) Retroactive Continuity of becoming subelementals.  (Fingers Crossed)

I obviously love this so much.  Reserving space to opine and provide recommendations at a later time.

50 items, 80 recipes.

I imagine it has to do with component crafting and magical artifacts.

Sounds cool.  I like the possibilities there.

Quote from: wizturbo on December 22, 2021, 04:15:05 AM
Sounds cool.  I like the possibilities there.

I hope this won't be a 'nobody knows what to do/how to get there' situation where only a handful of players will ever see results.

Yup, hopefully it's super neat. But it really more feels like a, we know you want full guild mages back but we're not going to do that nor tell you folks exactly why kinda thing. Sorry to sound like a jerk, Brokkr, I'm sure you've put a lot of effort into it. It's just ennui based on staff decisions on my part.

Quote from: Veselka on December 22, 2021, 12:20:55 AM
50 items, 80 recipes.

I imagine it has to do with component crafting and magical artifacts.

I'm betting a lot of it is in the comp crafting (which has needed a serious update since new spells/effects have gone in).

It might be a nice way to see someone focusing more on their magickal nature than their main class, without giving us full magick.

Also, as a Drovian I want a fireball

I feel like magickers already have a pretty solid "endgame" whereas mundane characters, and especially mundane combat classes, do not. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with making magickers even more better than they already were, but I wonder when the time comes to throw a bone to mundane characters. Riev put it well in another thread:

Quote from: Riev on December 17, 2021, 10:40:12 AM
I think part of the problem lies in finding out "what is turning into an elemental equivalent to in mundane terms?". If I play a warrior, what is my "becoming an elemental"? Leadership roles? Nah. Mastering my weapon skills? Twink. Fighting a big creature? Probably better to be non-mundane anyway.

For the most part, mundane skills don't really change when you get better at them, they just fail less often. Becoming a master thief doesn't suddenly allow you to steal the rings off of people's fingers. Mastery of stealth doesn't allow you to rest while hidden. Master hunt doesn't let you see older tracks than you could at novice. You get a bigger + to the dice roll, and maybe a damage bonus to combat skills, but that's it. Not much else to look forward to.

Combat classes in particular face the problem of running out of ways to progress. If you're not lucky enough to have frequent access to an extremely skilled sparring partner - which, let's face it, you almost never do - you'll hit that Wall of No Progress surprisingly early. You might not even be able to reach advanced level in your main weapon skill. You might be stuck forever at journeyman even if your character's whole career is in some martial line of work.

There used to be tricks to bypass this hurdle, but they were very twinky and have systematically been patched out of the game. Now we're left with a situation where becoming a genuinely impressive warrior is something most characters don't even have the opportunity to pursue. You can get to that level of "pretty good" where animals generally don't trouble you, but that's the same level that all fighting PCs end up at. It doesn't really feel like there's a reasonable route to greatness for warrior types.

Non-mundanes have a fairly straight-forward path to badassness. Branch your spells/psionics, max them out, use them in the way that best synergizes with your regular skills, and you'll be a force to be reckoned with. The obstacles are all social--you might get killed if people find out what you are. If they don't, you're golden. Once you're experienced enough at the game, it's not that difficult to survive these obstacles, which is why we don't see mages and mindbenders on the chopping block every week. It isn't brutally difficult to play a succesful non-mundane.

But for mundane characters, the code itself is your obstacle. Once you hit that wall, you're just stuck there. You can't roleplay your way around the fact that your offense skill got too high to have any chance of raising a second weapon skill. There's no endgame in sight because the game largely prevents you from pursuing it. Non-mundane characters of course face the same issue when it comes to their combat skills, but they can progress further through magick. They have alternatives that mundanes don't.

Anyone can rank up in their clan or whatever. That's usually not a product of you skills and coded power. There's just a lack of ways to feel like those months of training led to anything meaningful. That point where you're no longer really getting any better, it seems to come too early. It doesn't happen when you're 90% of the way to the top, it's more like 60%. And it doesn't apply to all combat abilities, either--backstab, archery, spells, these are all easy to max out if you just keep working at it. But for the classes whose coded power comes from weapon skills and the hidden combat skills, it feels like crap to know that you basically have no chance to experience the full potential of your class.

There doesn't need to be a "mundane elemental," as Riev put it. There just needs to be a realistic path to the upper echelons for the combat classes, the same way there is for literally every other character type in the game. Infiltrators aren't faced with the reality that they'll probably never get past low-advanced backstab. Magickers don't have to accept that the code prevents them from getting the last 30% of their spell list. This issue is unique to the "sparring skills," and I don't understand why.

It can't be an issue of game balance, because we all know that weapon skills are pretty far down on the list of deadliest abilities in the game. You're vastly more dangerous if you have master sap and apprentice bludgeoning than if you have master chopping weapons. Any number of elementalist subclasses can kill you much faster and more easily than a fully maxed out fighter could. A master archer with poisoned arrows is ten times deadlier than any swordsman. And more importantly, you can actually get master sap or archery or fireball. Easily. Trivially.

Why, then, are high levels in the conventional combat skills gated behind brutally prohibitive code? Why are we getting whole new venues of lategame advancement for magickers when there's an entire archetype - and the most important one in the game, if you ask me - that doesn't even really have an endgame carrot? You can already be a world-renowned magicker. We've seen plenty of them. I would like to see more warrior-types who are so skilled that they're known far and wide for it. That feels like something that's missing from the game.

Agreed.  I hope the pendulum of change swings back towards mundanes at some point. 

I wish you two good luck with this line of argument, Cowboy, Greve. In the end, fixing what you speak of doesn't even benefit mundanes solely; it just makes raider whirans even better.

I have nothing else to say that's particularly nice or hopeful so, yeah, good luck.

What if...


"In order for you to get an extra spell, you need to:
1) kill another magicker of the same element and sacrifice their body on an alter you need to build
2) Choose from one of the following skills and have it capped at 40% of it's current maximum:
Weapon Skills
or
Choose two of the following skills and have it capped at 40% of it's current maximum:
Combat Skills
Stealth Skills
Manipulation Skills
Perception Skills
or
Choose three of the following skills and have it capped at 20% of it's current maximum:
Crafting Skills
Barter Skills"


OR

You need to acquire 25 rare items.
You need to craft these items into 5 super rare items.
You need to craft those 5 super rare items into 1 legendary item.
You need to trade one legendary item to an NPC in the game that will add a spell of your choice to your skillset.   These NPCs are in the temples in Allanak, or found in certain tribes.


OR

....Something else.

Quote from: Patuk on December 22, 2021, 11:34:33 AM
I wish you two good luck with this line of argument, Cowboy, Greve. In the end, fixing what you speak of doesn't even benefit mundanes solely; it just makes raider whirans even better.

I have nothing else to say that's particularly nice or hopeful so, yeah, good luck.

I'm not as concerned with the way it might benefit raider/whirans. I just want there to be a higher ceiling in general. For an elementalist with a bunch of cool spells to further bolster their abilities, it's not such a big problem if you're unable to ever get your weapon skill above journeyman. If you're not in a clan that features military training, you probably wouldn't get much better than that anyway. But for mundane characters whose coded faculties come down entirely to their regular skillset, it's really boring and disappointing to hit the Wall of No Progress as early as you typically do.

You can become the best thief that it's possible to be. You can become the best archer ever. You can max out all your crafting skills inside a month if you have the materials. Absolutely every category of skills can be maxed out entirely within a very reasonable timeframe, without even doing anything too twinky... except for the "sparring skills," which are borderline impossible to even raise high enough to where it's interesting, let alone maxing them. Nobody really needs to be a maxed out warrior to do anything, but if your key skills stop progressing at same level that even the mixed classes can reach, it's just boring.

If fixing this problem happens to also help elementalists, I don't really care. If I was in charge of class design, I'd make non-mundanes cap their class skills 10% lower than a mundane of the same class would, in order to reflect the fact that some of their time and talents are devoted to other practices; but that's just my opinion and it's not important enough to me that I'd campaign for it. But the way that combat classes stall out long before they've reached their full potential is something I very much do think has to be changed.

Quote from: Greve on December 22, 2021, 10:35:53 AM
I feel like magickers already have a pretty solid "endgame" whereas mundane characters, and especially mundane combat classes, do not. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with making magickers even more better than they already were, but I wonder when the time comes to throw a bone to mundane characters.

Working on magickers takes a lot of code support, and someone working on the code interested in doing that.  So you work on stuff related to them when you have that going on.

When looking at mages, that might be to the end of their coded progression at 5 days played sometimes, and combat mundanes with a tail so long that nearly none of them reach it, and you have the above situation, which area to focus on right now is pretty obvious.  You may not like the long combat tail as part of the mundane endgame, but it at least gives you something to strive for vs no longer having anything to strive for.

Quote from: th3kaiser on December 22, 2021, 09:59:44 AM
Yup, hopefully it's super neat. But it really more feels like a, we know you want full guild mages back but we're not going to do that nor tell you folks exactly why kinda thing. Sorry to sound like a jerk, Brokkr, I'm sure you've put a lot of effort into it. It's just ennui based on staff decisions on my part.

Had really nothing to do with distracting from full guild elementalists.  Would benefit them as much as current elementalists, if there were any.

Full guild elementalists is a compartmentalized discussion, whether or not that ever happens does not really have any bearing on the other things we are working on.

Quote from: Veselka on December 22, 2021, 12:20:55 AM
50 items, 80 recipes.

I'm excited. In a way that is appropriate.

Quote from: Brokkr on December 22, 2021, 01:36:49 PM

Quote from: th3kaiser on December 22, 2021, 09:59:44 AM
Yup, hopefully it's super neat. But it really more feels like a, we know you want full guild mages back but we're not going to do that nor tell you folks exactly why kinda thing. Sorry to sound like a jerk, Brokkr, I'm sure you've put a lot of effort into it. It's just ennui based on staff decisions on my part.

Had really nothing to do with distracting from full guild elementalists.  Would benefit them as much as current elementalists, if there were any.

Full guild elementalists is a compartmentalized discussion, whether or not that ever happens does not really have any bearing on the other things we are working on.

Totally fair, Brokkr. As I said, ennui on my part. I likely shouldn't have even posted, thanks for the response though.

First of all, this is some good shit.

Quote from: Greve on December 22, 2021, 10:35:53 AM
I feel like magickers already have a pretty solid "endgame" whereas mundane characters, and especially mundane combat classes, do not. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with making magickers even more better than they already were, but I wonder when the time comes to throw a bone to mundane characters. Riev put it well in another thread:

Quote from: Riev on December 17, 2021, 10:40:12 AM
I think part of the problem lies in finding out "what is turning into an elemental equivalent to in mundane terms?". If I play a warrior, what is my "becoming an elemental"? Leadership roles? Nah. Mastering my weapon skills? Twink. Fighting a big creature? Probably better to be non-mundane anyway.

For the most part, mundane skills don't really change when you get better at them, they just fail less often. Becoming a master thief doesn't suddenly allow you to steal the rings off of people's fingers. Mastery of stealth doesn't allow you to rest while hidden. Master hunt doesn't let you see older tracks than you could at novice. You get a bigger + to the dice roll, and maybe a damage bonus to combat skills, but that's it. Not much else to look forward to.

Quite true. I would love to see more 'end game' nuances like you mentioned with mundane skills.

In general, I believe combat classes can use more stances. Similar to 'riposte', but much more basic.

-Change Stance Offense: You are more aggressive. You get a buff to offense, deal more damage, and a de-buff to defense. You open yourself up to attacks of opportunity when you swing, even if you are not the direct target (So if you are assisting your buddy, toggle on change stance offense, the NPC or PC you are fighting gets small attacks of opportunity against YOU as well as the person they are facing). This stance drains your stamina over time.

-Change Stance Neutral: As it is now.

-Change Stance Defense: You are less aggressive. You swing slower. You gain a buff to defense, but a de-buff to offense. This stance drains your stamina over time.

---

Other Skill Thoughts:

Master Hunt: See older (or different) tracks. Be able to track specific tracks through hunt, so when you enter a room, it automatically tells you the next direction they took. (hunt 2.lizard).

Master Listen: Can hear up to two rooms away, based on skill check.

Master Watch: Can accurately see hidden folks / magically altered folks more consistently and further away.

Master Kick: Chance of knocking someone down similar to bash, or ability to target where you kick with varying difficulty/results.
---Kick Head: Less Damage, Higher Stun Damage
---Kick Hand: Chance of disarming, making ep or es unusable for X time.
---Kick Leg: Slow target slightly on fleeing. Possible chance of knocking someone down.

Failures at targeted kicks put the kicker further off balance, opening them up on the next hit to higher damage/higher chance for their victim to hit.

Master Bash: Increase damage of bash, Much lower delay time, ability to target multiple people with lower chance of success (increased if using a shield). (bash 1.person 2.person). If someone is victim to a 'multiple bash', they have a lower delay time to stand and take less damage.

Master Throw: Can throw up to two rooms away. Able to use 'Master Throw' weapons such as Chatkcha's with accurate return rate.

Master Archery: Can shoot 3 rooms instead of 2 rooms with lower accuracy (depending on bow/strength), accuracy increased at 2 room range, can perform a 'prepared shot' (shoot soandso far north prepare). If someone matching that target word enters the room, they shoot. Able to use 'Master Level' bows.

Master Parry: Automatically 'riposte' some blows regardless of whether or not you have the skill when fighting multiple NPCs/PCs, and regardless of weapon, at a much LOWER damage than people with Riposte get (With Riposte, your damage increases significantly on a successfully riposted blow). So if you parry Combatant 2 who is fighting you, you have a chance of riposting their blow and hurting them a bit.

Master Riposte: Severely reduce stamina loss with successful/unsuccessful ripostes. Keep in stance of riposte after a successful riposte. Critical success leads into a disarm attempt. Add ability to 'riposte dummy', where your return blows are taps and not dangerous slices, for purposes of training. ABLE TO RIPOSTE MULTIPLE ENEMIES fighting you, not just the primary target fighting you.

Weapon Skills: Gate certain weapons behind ability! Yes, this seems like a leftover of H&S, but also provides a realistic understanding of 'Master Level Weapons' and 'Exotic Weapons'. Instead of gating these behind actual skills like Polearms and Knives and such, flip it around. If you have Journeyman Slashing Weapons, you find you can EP and Two that bastard sword, while before you could just etwo it. Weapons can have things in assess (related to your skill level) that say 'You test its weight, and think you can use it, but you don't feel skilled enough to wield it properly', compared to 'You test its weight, and think you can use it, and wield it with skill', compared to 'You test its weight, and think you can use it, and wield it with great skill'. This also opens up the Fighters to better determine what weapons best suit them, alongside the merchants. In a way, it's maybe knowing what weapons cause more damage! But maybe not too -- It might have nothing to do with knowing how much d5 the sword has, but more that if you are ADVANCED SLASHING, and using an ADVANCED SLASHING blade, you hit more often, or do more damage, against LESSER SKILLED people.

But it's also a (maybe?) more realistic allowance for end-game combat classes to better understand what armor works better for them, what weapons work better for them, and distinguishes them among the crowd of Beefy Bois and Girls.

In this way, Master Fighters would truly be different from Advanced Fighters, and different from Journeyman Fighters, and Apprentice Fighters, not to mention other heavy/light combat classes. It also distinguishes a Journeyman Soldier who has been around for 50 days, has great offense, and 'journeyman slashing', compared to an Journeyman Fighter, who has great offense, 'advanced slashing', and is able to use a sword MORE EFFICIENTLY. These two could have the SAME weapon, but the advanced fighter is BETTER at using it.

Just some thoughts.

If this is more components, seems like a spectacular idea.
I agree with the general sentiment that mundane characters need some sort of endgame progression.
What ever happened to advanced weapon skills anyways?

Quote from: Veselka on December 22, 2021, 04:23:23 PM
snip

Keep mundane classes as they are and introduce karma required subclasses that are more like specialists instead.

A Combat Specialist would get exclusive perks at advanced and master skill levels.
As you suggested, such as targeted kicks.

A Commerce Specialist could have their goods be *2 and *3 value. They could get 2 or 3 products per craft. They could double the range of their haggle rolls.

etc etc

That I dig ^^^.

It will be cool if gicks can get a stronger connection to their element and perhaps learn new spells etc. I hope this will be available to even touched subguilds and wonder what kind of qualifications are used.

Personally I have a feeling the addition of recipes and items has to do with the re-open of Tuluk and the fact that some materials are near impossible to come by on certain sides of the world.  Hopefully adding a few new options to create high end components with what's in your neighborhood?  Another thought though.. a while back there was mention of some new work with "reaches" I would imagine they would have to make a whole slew of new components to bring those gifted with such abilities to life.

Exciting new stuff to find out any way you slice it! 

Quote from: lostinspace on December 22, 2021, 04:44:30 PM
What ever happened to advanced weapon skills anyways?

They were basically removed from the game. Gladiator-PCs were the only ones to get them added.
It was decided that they had become more of a 'goalpost', and once you got an advanced weapon skill, it was very difficult to raise it to a level of competency.

Instead, staff removed them entirely and raised the cap on general weapon skills.